If Christ existed before earthly birth, did He not interact with humans?

Archie the Preacher

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Aren't you glad we have the completed word of God today? :oldthumbsup:
I am delighted to have the message of God in sufficient scope to understand what He expects of me and what He did to fix the problem my ancestor Adam caused. I am also delighted to have that message in a form I can understand and study.

I use the term 'sufficient' only to acknowledge no written communication, and probably no conversation, can be enough to fully describe the nature and love of God. At a guess, that's what Eternity will be all about.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

From comments I've read from various theologians, I'm under the impression that Jesus popped up here and there in the OT as the entity called the "Angel of God." This "angel" is neither Michael nor Gabriel. Of course, we can all disagree about some of the finer points in all of this, but let's all do some research first before disagreeing and positing doubts.

Thanks!

2PhiloVoid
 
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John Hyperspace

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

Sure, anything is possible and, like you mention, there are some really striking parallels. We might call them "shadows" in the same manner the Jews were given "shadows of things to come"

But something I've thought about, is subjective time in relation the Christ. What if He didn't appear in our "past" until after His ascension? Meaning what if He ascended, and then became eternal in nature; which would make Christ eternal, yet make his eternality subjectively after the ascension. It's non-linear time. I sometimes get the feeling that God primarily exists at the end, and we're all moving toward Him, being "drawn" to where He is primarily located in the future. Thus, the past doesn't create the future, but the future creates the past. Now wrap your free will/sovereignty brain around that one.
 
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St_Worm2

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Yes, he interacted with even through the snake.

You are not by chance insinuating that the pre-Incarnate Son of God, rather than Satan, was the snake who tempted our progenitors in the Garden of God, are you?
 
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1John2:4

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.
This post looks fun!!

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

In the beginning God was Elohim which is plural. Elohim (God in English translation) speaks and says let's make man in Our image. Everything was created through the light, after the creation God is referred to as YHVH (Lord in English translation). Notice Lord God does not show up until Genisis 2 after the creation account.

Lord God walked in the garden and spoke with Adam.

Genisis 4 when Cain killed Able now He is called Lord.

Lord spoke with Abraham with the other 2 heavenly men or angels before distroying sodom and Gomorrah. And to Jacob when he broke his hip.

I think one of the other folks posted these other sightings.

But when Moses spoke to Him on the Mount God said no one has ever seen God and lived Exodus 33:20. Who was this was this YHVH Elohim?

Thoughts??
 
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St_Worm2

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

I remember posting to a thread about this very subject (either here or elsewhere) sometime last year. It was suggested that EVERY (or nearly every) physical appearance of God in the OT was, in fact, made by the second Member of the Godhead, and I have come to cautiously believe that is true. For instance, that the finger that wrote on the ground before the angry mob in John 8:6 belongs to the same Person who wrote the 10 Commandments on two stone tablets nearly 1,500 years earlier.

The Apostle John tells us that it was the pre-Incarnate Son of God who Isaiah saw in the Temple (John 12:41; Isaiah 6:1-7).

It seems to me that the idea that such appearances were all made by Jesus, who we know had/has a physical body, is also supported by two other things that He and St. John teach us about God the Father: 1) that He is "Spirit" .. John 4:24 and 2) that "no one has seen Him at any time" .. John 1:18.

Yours and His,
David
 
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South Bound

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

Where in the world did you ever get the idea that we don't study the pre-incarnate Christ?
 
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The Gospel recorded David referred to Jesus in Psalm 110:1.

Matthew 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42saying, "What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him, "Of David." 43He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying,
44'The Lord said to my Lord, sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?'
45"If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?" 46No one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man dare ask him any more questions from that day forth.

Psalm 110:1 Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
 
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South Bound

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He was the fourth person in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

I love that He was with them. I think He was the angel that stopped the mouths of the lions, too.


Many years ago, I took a couple of classes with Dr Harold Wilmington. I still remember him teaching about Jesus being the
"angel" who wrestled with Jacob.
 
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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

There's a whole area of theology called Logos Christology, which looks at Christ's role in non-physical form. With this in mind, it's very unlikely that Christ only started becoming the very stuff that holds the universe together:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. -- Colossians 1:15-17 (ESV)
Being before all things is very straightforward and totally uncontroversial statement that he has existed in incorporeal form before taking on an earthly form, and throughout all time he has held stuff together (i.e., keeping the atom an atom).

James White, a paragon of Calvinistic conservatism, pointed out in his book, The Forgotten Trinity, that any physical form that God takes in the Old Testament is actually Christ.
 
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God walked and talked with God.
No man has seen the face of God, ever.
So who did Adam speak with? Jesus.
Jesus has been the intermediary between God and man since man's creation. Made with a finite mind, the human mind could not grasp the appearance of God without being blinded or rendered insane. It will not be until we have a glorified body that we will be able and be worthy to see God.
 
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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.
If Jesus of Nazareth is the image of the invisible God, then anywhere in the OT that depicts a visible manifestation of God on earth (such as God walking in the garden, or visiting Abraham, or wrestling with Israel), must therefore be Jesus.
 
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Aryeh

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One of the most profound holes I find in conservative Christianity is the lack of wonder at what Jesus Christ was doing before His physical birth as Jesus of Nazarene. Many, too many to list, biblical passages clearly show that Christ existed in some form since the beginning of time, and for as long as Earth has existed.

Now yes, the Bible does not provide a detailed list of what Jesus was doing for all those thousands and thousands of years of human history. It talks more of His presence in the heavenly realm. However, I find it very hard to imagine that in all that time, He never interacted in one form of another with mankind. Or at the very least inspired people - and possibly certain beliefs. As in, could it not be possible that at least some, not all, but at least some of the religions and beliefs before Christianity could have been touched by Christ in some form or another? Not at all saying any were perfect or pure, but some aspects of them could have been a shadow, or a hint, of the real truth. Comparing and analyzing different religions certainly shows some, keyword some, striking similarities.

I find it hard to believe that whatever Christ was doing in heaven, when it comes specifically to his earthly involvement, he was sitting on the sidelines all the way until his birth in Bethlehem.

Of course, this is very controversial, because even the hint that there could be truth outside of what is commonly known as Christianity opens up a big Pandora's box that does not sit well with conservatism.

Anytime man interacted with, talked with, or saw God, they saw Christ. Just like if you have seen the face of Christ, you have seen God. He and God are one. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was/is God.

That is from Adam and Eve, and the Lord God walking with them in the Garden (Christ,) to the burning bush and the law, to transfiguration and resurrection.

No human has seen the face of God the Father, and lived. That is a simple consequence of who He is, and our nature. He categorically destroys sin, or rather sin cannot be around Him. So, if any person saw Him, they would have to die as sons of man (instead of the son of God title afforded only once to Adam, and forever to Christ.)

Seeing God as Christ, however, is possible for men - especially if He humbles Himself infinitely, and sheds His glory to be like us.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hold on a minute, we all seem to be in agreement. I can't remember the last time that happened on a CT debate thread (if it ever did :scratch:), so hey, what's going on here :D
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Hold on a minute, we all seem to be in agreement. I can't remember the last time that happened on a CT debate thread (if it ever did :scratch:), so hey, what's going on here :D
Perhaps we're actually progressing in Christ?
 
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Hold on a minute, we all seem to be in agreement. I can't remember the last time that happened on a CT debate thread (if it ever did :scratch:), so hey, what's going on here :D
A subject has been brought up that is common to most denominations and churches.

In other words, basic doctrine.

IN THE BEGINNING, GOD can get us to 100% agreement.
 
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