Predestination

Samson Reaper · Jan 12, 2017

FormerTweaker said:
How does God desire all men to be saved then as stated in 1 Timothy 2:4 - 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

if only those who he draws can come to Lord Jesus? It seems conflicting to me at a surface level.

Charles Spurgeon has a sermon on this where he deals with it extensively. Google Spurgeon - Sermon 1516 and you will find it. A snippet is on this thread:

Samson Reaper said:
TULIP REFUTED by a Calvinist.
“God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.

dqhall · Jan 12, 2017

FormerTweaker said:
I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.

John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.

Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

vs

2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

and

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.

A shepherd kept his sheep in a sheepfold at night. This sheepfold was a stone walled coral that was designed to keep wolf packs out. The wolf prowled under cover of darkness. Sometimes there was more than one flock being kept in the sheepfold by more than one shepherd. In the morning the shepherds stood outside the gate of the sheepfold and called for their sheep to follow. The sheep each followed the voice of their own shepherd and not the voice of another.

John 10:25 (WEB) Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify about me. 26But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

If you will want to be saved, you must heed the call of God the father of Jesus. Those who do not heed God's calling may not be saved. Many complain to God about the works of the evil and wicked people. Wickedness will not last an eternity as long as God eventually separates the righteous from the wicked.

Archie the Preacher · Jan 12, 2017

Michael Scaman said:
The truth is predestine is a word used a number of times in the New Testament so the question isn't whether it's true but what does it mean

Yes. I rather think this statement is quite important.

throughfiierytrial · Jan 12, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
If you're talking about "torture for eternity" I'd ask what scriptures you have to support that view. In the "Controversial Christianity" section of the forum I've a thread on support of that most "dreaded and fearsome" doctrine of Universal Reconciliation; feel free to join in, or, support the "eternal torture" doctrine here. I think you'll find it severly short of any support whatsoever.

If you're meaning "destruction precedes rebuilding" there are countless supporting verses such as:

Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

So you see destruction leading to help in God. Destruction is not "the albeit ending of endings" but a step in restoration, and building anew.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The word translated "lost" here means "perished" or "ruined/destroyed" and is translated with those words elsewhere. So, to be "lost/perished/destroyed/ruined" is again not the "be-all-end-all" but a step in the direction of reconciliation.

Even death itself is not the "be-all-end-all" as shown:

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The parable shows a man who is alive, leaves his father, is perished and destroyed in death, repents, and is eventually reconciled to his Father who says of his son, that he "was dead, and is alive again": so the concept of "destruction/death/ruin/lost" is not the "full end" in scripture, but a step toward the full end, which is reconciliation. For the prodigal son, his death and destruction was the impetus of his reconciliation.

Well, that's interesting, every place hell is mentioned in Scripture eternal fires are as well.

throughfiierytrial · Jan 12, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Have all people heard the gospel?

Agreed...
Isaiah 6:1-3:
“I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations—
a people who continually provoke me
to my very face,...

And sometimes we simply agree with Scripture without full understanding, along with King David...

Psalm 131:1:
My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
Psalm 139:5-6:
You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Remembering also...

Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

FireHeart · Jan 12, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Your post has only served to reaffirm my point.

Are you doing nothing more than creating a god in your own image based upon your feelings and intuition?

You are not understanding my words and if that is what you wish to see in my words then I will let you be to your own my only word of advice is to remember to add both who he is and the scriptures

John Hyperspace · Jan 12, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
Well, that's interesting, every place hell is mentioned in Scripture eternal fires are as well.

Not really. Did you know Jesus went to hell when He died?

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Do you think Jesus was literally burning in fire being tormented? I don't believe He was, but at any rate, there's nothing about "fires" in the verse, and usually not even connected with "hell" most of the time.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Do you believe God is in hell? I doubt it. Also, eternality of fire doesn't support eternality of torture by any stretch of the imagination (which is where the modern concept of "hell" comes from):

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do you think Sodom and Gomorrha are still burning to this day? They're not, the eternal fire destroyed them in one day.

Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Basically, the "eternal hell" is complete fiction, a tool of fear-mongering that corrupts the doctrine of reconciliation in order to drive people away from God, and to slander God.

throughfiierytrial · Jan 12, 2017

John Hyperspace said:
Not really. Did you know Jesus went to hell when He died?

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Do you think Jesus was literally burning in fire being tormented? I don't believe He was, but at any rate, there's nothing about "fires" in the verse, and usually not even connected with "hell" most of the time.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Do you believe God is in hell? I doubt it. Also, eternality of fire doesn't support eternality of torture by any stretch of the imagination (which is where the modern concept of "hell" comes from):

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Do you think Sodom and Gomorrha are still burning to this day? They're not, the eternal fire destroyed them in one day.

Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Basically, the "eternal hell" is complete fiction, a tool of fear-mongering that corrupts the doctrine of reconciliation in order to drive people away from God, and to slander God.

How about quoting the words of Jesus on hell.

John Hyperspace · Jan 12, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
How about quoting the words of Jesus on hell.

How about not making statements that are patently false, then when called out on it, backpedaling to something else? How about before quoting the words of Jesus I quote: Matthew 13:34.

I could cite a couple of passages with the word "fire" in them such as:

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Now how do you propose being cast into fire supports the teaching of "eternal torture" especially when Jesus calls it "destruction": Matthew 10:28

Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Do you think trees burn forever? They don't.

St_Worm2 · Jan 12, 2017

Samson Reaper said:
Please can you show me where the New Testament God predestine damnation, or to use your words 'who will not be saved'.

Even after many years I have not found where it sat anything like this, rather the opposite- 1 Tim 2:4, I Peter 3:9 etc.

Hi SR, you are correct, Biblically, predestination is always single, not double, as the Bible only speaks of God's active predestining of His elect/the saints to eternal life. Doctrinally however, we speak of predestination as "double" since the Bible makes it clear that only some are saved and that most remain on the broad road to destruction (so this 2nd kind of predestination is seen as a "passive" one on God's part).

The Lord changes us by regeneration/working righteousness into the hearts of the saints, that we may be saved (i.e. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17), but He has no reason to work wickedness into the hearts of the reprobate as it is already there in great abundance (i.e. Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3).

Yours and His,
David

"As in Adam all die, so in Christ
all will be made alive"
1 Cor 15:22

Rochendil · Jan 12, 2017

Read Romans chapters 8 through 10. Those that support that Only God chooses who is saved only read one chapter (Calvinists). Those that believe that Only man chooses salvation (Arminians) only read one chapter. Both Catholics and Orthodox have found a way to reconcile the truths in the verses and came to believe that "God has predestined us but not without cause".The cause being the acceptance.

RC1970 · Jan 12, 2017

FireHeart said:
You are not understanding my words and if that is what you wish to see in my words then I will let you be to your own my only word of advice is to remember to add both who he is and the scriptures

What Jimmy is trying to convey to you is that your feelings, although very meaningful to you, do not add any value to anyone else. Your mystical experiences are for your benefit, alone.

What we are interested in, is what you "think" concerning God's Word, which is available for all of us to study and discuss.

So, what do you think God was trying to communicate to us about predestination?

zoidar · Jan 13, 2017

FormerTweaker said:
I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.

John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.

There is no "vs". The cross of Jesus Christ is the victory for all people in the world. God has redeemed mankind. That's what it means by that he will draw all people to him. Everyone, everywhere have been drawn by God. Ok, everyone doesn't heed the call, that is true, but God calls on everyone to repent and believe. Even those that never heard the gospel he pulls by their own conscience, the inner knowing that there is something wrong. If there wasn't a pull from the Father, then no one would ever feel this. We would live our lives like everything in the world is just the way it should be, and feel that it was right and just.

Whats our mission? It is to make this pull of God stronger, by praying for all people, by talking about the love of Christ through the cross, and live more Christlike lives. We are to be lights of the world so people can see us, and more clearly understand what they are missing in this world.

FormerTweaker said:
Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

This can easly be misunderstood. God is LETTING your heart be hardened by yourself, your own choices, and your will.

FormerTweaker said:
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

From the beginning we are all objects of wrath. We have all walked away from God. God has different purposes for all of us. It's not said that the objects of wrath always will be objects of wrath, no they can become objects of mercy, any time. He has had great patience with the objects of wrath, calling on them, wanting them to turn to him.

The Potter and the Clay (Jer 18:1-6)

The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.

FormerTweaker said:
2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

and

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

God is awesome in love! "For God so LOVED the world" /John 3:16-17 "that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Yes God is patient with all of us, wanting everyone to believe in his Son. His love is VAST man! No one is excluded, it's such a love. If people only knew how much they are loved they would fall on their knees and cry of thankfulness, and praise his name.

FormerTweaker said:
How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.

The closer you come to God, the better you know him, the more you know that he is a God of love. Your own will gets more in line with Gods will. The holy Spirit in you gives you the same desire as God, that every person should be saved. That is what the holy Spirit does with you. When God gives you that strong desire for people being saved, then you can be sure that his will for people is like yours, only even stronger.

God doesn't elect anyone for destruction. The bible is clear on that. The offer of salvation is for every person, all of us have gone astray and were "prepared for destruction", and he is calling all of us back to him. He has restored everything, his mercy is for all people, the love of God towards mankind is proven by the cross of Jesus Christ.

Satan is not partly defeted, but FULLY defeted. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (Joh 12:31). That means that every person is forgiven, by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that every person is free to trust in that for salvation.

God bless!

/P

Galatea · Jan 13, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
First off, you have to distinguish between God, the Son, and God, the Father. Up until after Jesus death and resurrection and ascension back to the position he originally had with his Father before anything was (ever created or came to be) With the very first thing created, God, the Son lost the full omniscience he had with his Father at that time, and went from full omniscience to partial omniscience, he was still more omniscient than any other, except for the Father himself, but he was no longer not totally, fully omniscient... He lost that when the first thing was created, and did not get it back, until after his death, resurrection, and ascension back to whence he came, his original position with the Father before anything was made...

God, the Son, as our God YHWH in the OT, Jesus Christ, the God-Man in the NT was more omniscient than any other, except the Father himself, he could predestine and predict and see ahead in many things, but not all things then, at that time, until he went back to where he was before (anything was made)...

Imagine a deck of cards, To The Father, all of the cards are the same, all aces of spades in a game of spades, to the Son, all red cards are the same, and all black cards are the same, and he can play red or else black, only one real choice... But, to us, and from our perspective, all 52 cards are all different and it seems their is a myriad of choices, when the choices only exist due to our ignorance or what we don't know... Only the Father alone knowing all, and the Son also but only before creation and after his death, resurrection and ascension... And not the time in between...

That being said, you have to know when those scriptures are talking about God, the Father, or God the Son, or the Lord...

The Father has set everyone's course and path, even God, the Son, our God's path as well... Knowing who/what/when/how each one is going to be inclined to be like ahead of time, making/creating or bringing into existence, a third to be bad eggs, and two thirds good ones, were not here to make the choice(s) but to be made to understand why we made the choices that we did, and what separates the ones who chose well, from the ones who did not choose so well, but, only in the judgment, after we die, not before or until then...

Pharaoh's heart was already inclined toward disobedience and evil, God just took advantage of what he was already inclined to be like, for his glory, honor, and greater good for his people in the end, and that is what he uses all peoples hearts who are inclined toward evil for, for his glory and honor, and the greater good of his people ultimately, in the end... One day, we'll know the why and how and what (distinguishes or separates us from them) one day, in the judgement we'll know... We'll all know, even the wicked ones, who's (spirits) in and with them, will have to stay here, and never transcend, but will spend eternity here in hell, and never, ever go to heaven, continually recycled in a evil sinful wicked system, and in wicked sinful men, forever...

God Bless!

Why do you think Jesus was not omniscient in His incarnation?

Galatea · Jan 13, 2017

DoubtfulSalvation said:
The Holy Spirit is so perfect that it fails in it's mission for 90% of the population. Some success rate, eh?

If I used a dog whistle, a good whistle, and the dogs do not come, whose fault is it? The whistle or the dogs?

98cwitr · Jan 13, 2017

Winken said:
He desires everyone to respond to His call. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. Some don't respond.

Why would an Omniscient God call someone He knows will never come?

Galatea said:
If I used a dog whistle, a good whistle, and the dogs do not come, whose fault is it? The whistle or the dogs?

Would you still blow the whistle if you knew it would draw no dogs?

98cwitr · Jan 13, 2017

Rochendil said:
Read Romans chapters 8 through 10. Those that support that Only God chooses who is saved only read one chapter (Calvinists). Those that believe that Only man chooses salvation (Arminians) only read one chapter. Both Catholics and Orthodox have found a way to reconcile the truths in the verses and came to believe that "God has predestined us but not without cause".The cause being the acceptance.

Oh I thought the cause was "His good pleasure" and that even the damned have a purpose for existing.

Galatea · Jan 13, 2017

98cwitr said:
Why would an Omniscient God call someone He knows will never come?

Would you still blow the whistle if you knew it would draw no dogs?

If I loved the dogs, and knew they would not come- I would blow the whistle anyway. Even if I knew none would come.

98cwitr · Jan 13, 2017

Galatea said:
If I loved the dogs, and knew they would not come- I would blow the whistle anyway. Even if I knew none would come.

Why? What purpose would that serve or what would that accomplish?

Galatea · Jan 13, 2017

98cwitr said:
Why? What purpose would that serve or what would that accomplish?

Do you ever do something for love that you knew would accomplish no purpose? Have you ever done something for someone KNOWING they would not respond? It is because of love.

For example, have you ever offered a child a reward for good behavior, but you already KNOW that the child will not comply? It is offered, the other way- but you KNOW based on the child's demeanor, that he is not going to choose the better path.

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