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Predestination
- Thread starter FormerTweaker
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If ALL are "drawn" by God and given to His Son, then ALL will be saved!
37 “ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6 (cf John 6:44; John 6:65)
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6 (cf John 6:44; John 6:65)
All of us were on the broad road (cf Romans 3:10-12; Romans 3:23; Ephesians 2:1-3), but God chose to save a remnant rather than allowing all of us to perish. Why He chose a "remnant" rather than "all" I cannot say, other than to point you to Romans 9.
Yours and His,
David
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. ~Romans 9
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What do you think the difference is when Jesus says he will draw all men to himself and when he says “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." is?
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Hi FT, do you believe that Jesus "draws all men to Himself" in the sense of all men & women w/o exception, or all men & women w/o distinction (IOW, both Jew AND Greek, men/women from every tribe, tongue, nation, etc.)? I believe the latter is in view (as is evidenced by the fact that some have never heard His name, even today). John 12:32 does not answer the problem that the verses in John 6 creates for those who believe that God draws 'all' men/women w/o exception however 
Yours in Christ,
David
Yours in Christ,
David
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tienkhoanguyen
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I don't know the answer. We are mere people when put to comparison to God and that shows we cannot understand God who is infinitely more than us. We only know what God allows!
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Hi FT, do you believe that Jesus "draws all men to Himself" in the sense of all men & women w/o exception, or all men & women w/o distinction (IOW, both Jew AND Greek, men/women from every tribe, tongue, nation, etc.)? I believe the latter is in view (as is evidenced by the fact that some have never heard His name, even today). John 12:32 does not answer the problem that the verses in John 6 create for those who believe that God draws 'all' men/women w/o exception however
Yours in Christ,
David
I'm still working out what to believe and how to interpret these verses. They seem to conflict so I am looking for others opinions to help form my own and find a belief that doesn't conflict.
I do not think God creates people that have no chance of escaping being burned alive forever.
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- Oct 10, 2011
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First off, you have to distinguish between God, the Son, and God, the Father. Up until after Jesus death and resurrection and ascension back to the position he originally had with his Father before anything was (ever created or came to be) With the very first thing created, God, the Son lost the full omniscience he had with his Father at that time, and went from full omniscience to partial omniscience, he was still more omniscient than any other, except for the Father himself, but he was no longer not totally, fully omniscient... He lost that when the first thing was created, and did not get it back, until after his death, resurrection, and ascension back to whence he came, his original position with the Father before anything was made...
God, the Son, as our God YHWH in the OT, Jesus Christ, the God-Man in the NT was more omniscient than any other, except the Father himself, he could predestine and predict and see ahead in many things, but not all things then, at that time, until he went back to where he was before (anything was made)...
Imagine a deck of cards, To The Father, all of the cards are the same, all aces of spades in a game of spades, to the Son, all red cards are the same, and all black cards are the same, and he can play red or else black, only one real choice... But, to us, and from our perspective, all 52 cards are all different and it seems their is a myriad of choices, when the choices only exist due to our ignorance or what we don't know... Only the Father alone knowing all, and the Son also but only before creation and after his death, resurrection and ascension... And not the time in between...
That being said, you have to know when those scriptures are talking about God, the Father, or God the Son, or the Lord...
The Father has set everyone's course and path, even God, the Son, our God's path as well... Knowing who/what/when/how each one is going to be inclined to be like ahead of time, making/creating or bringing into existence, a third to be bad eggs, and two thirds good ones, were not here to make the choice(s) but to be made to understand why we made the choices that we did, and what separates the ones who chose well, from the ones who did not choose so well, but, only in the judgment, after we die, not before or until then...
Pharaoh's heart was already inclined toward disobedience and evil, God just took advantage of what he was already inclined to be like, for his glory, honor, and greater good for his people in the end, and that is what he uses all peoples hearts who are inclined toward evil for, for his glory and honor, and the greater good of his people ultimately, in the end... One day, we'll know the why and how and what (distinguishes or separates us from them) one day, in the judgement we'll know... We'll all know, even the wicked ones, who's (spirits) in and with them, will have to stay here, and never transcend, but will spend eternity here in hell, and never, ever go to heaven, continually recycled in a evil sinful wicked system, and in wicked sinful men, forever...
God Bless!
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truefiction1
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Once you understand that God created beings in his image and likeness (i.e. with freewill), and you also understand that God knew prior to creating them how they would use that freewill yet created them anyway, you'll be on your way to respecting the mystery of God's creative providence.
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There is a rather simple solution to this problem that I have written recently elsewhere. I have spent considerable time dealing with issues of God's goodness, providence and human freedom, and how to reconcile the doctrines of the latter two. I have developed a deductive argument inferred from explicit Scriptural doctrines and natural theological considerations to demonstrate conclusively that concurrent providence and human freedom are not only reconcilable, but follow necessarily from the nature of God and are necessary for the greatest achievable good in a created world. To resolve the ostensible contradictory implications of some of the aforementioned Scriptures (and others), pay close attention to the following points as I develop them. I assure you if you understand them it will relieve you of the confusion.
To clarify in advance, this is an argument from God's middle-knowledge to demonstrate the coherence of the simultaneous doctrines of human freedom and God's providence. Middle-knowledge is knowledge of all true counter-factuals, i.e., knowledge of what would be true in different sets of circumstances (like who Peter would be if He wasn't born in Israel in the time of Jesus, or what I would do if I had great wealth or poverty, etc.; all of the consequences entailed in any change from the actual world). The following points are my condensed version of the premises for God's middle-knowledge informed by (as previously mentioned) explicit Scriptural doctrines and natural theological inferences. If any of the points were to be in dispute or not fully understood, I would be happy to provide my extensive evidences for whichever premise seems contentious. For brevity's sake, I present the shortest (but still comprehensive) answer I can muster.
1. God, as eternal and ultimate reality, necessarily possesses all great-making attributes maximally (omni-attributes).
2. God, as eternal and ultimate, is the uncaused cause of all reality extrinsic to Himself.
3. God, as creator of all and maximally great, possesses omniscience.
4. As omniscient, God possesses foreknowledge of the course of any world He creates.
5. If God has foreknowledge of the course of any world, He has foreknowledge of the course of every world He could actualize.
6. If God has foreknowledge of every potential course, He has knowledge of courses that were not actualized.
7. Therefore, God has middle-knowledge.
From this understanding, it follows that in creating a universe that would accommodate truly free moral agents, God would have an infinite number of options available to Him with an equally infinite amount of possible outcomes. From what we know about the nature of God, He would naturally choose to create the world which would produce the greatest possible outcome. What is the greatest possible outcome? There is none other than that world which provides the circumstances which leads the largest number of souls to freely accept the grace of God through the salvation provided in Jesus Christ. From what we know about God's nature, particularly that God is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, this can be deductively inferred as follows:
1. Because God is omnibenevolent, He would be desire to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good
2. Because God is omniscient, He would know which world would produce the greatest potential good
3. Because God is omnipotent, He would be able to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good
Therefore the world in which we exist is that which would produce the great potential good. To repeat, this greatest good is the largest number of souls that would freely surrender themselves to God and receive His grace.
Again, God would have had a literally infinite number of options present of worlds to create with an equally infinite number of outcomes. By His perfect nature, however, God would not create a world at random in which His will to create concurrently free and absolutely loved creatures was not accomplished. So God would have to narrow His options to feasible worlds which accommodate creaturely freedom and yet lovingly provides the circumstances that permits each person who would freely choose God to do so. Knowing God, once He had narrowed the options to the assortment of great results, He would naturally choose the greatest of these possible outcomes. This is not to say God is predestining our decisions, but the creation of the world which would provide the social, environmental and personal circumstances that are necessary for each individual, in their own times and places as God foreknew, to interact with each other, their environment and God in a way that corresponds to their psychology/personality, ultimately and inevitably leading to the salvation of those who would freely respond affirmatively to God's grace in whatever circumstance they find themselves. In this sense, then, God can literally be said to have elected those who are saved, though their choices as well as those who reject God are entirely free.
As is stated in Acts 17, God placed us within our context because He knew that if given that context we would freely choose to accept Him by the testimony and in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. It could then be rightly asked "well then could God have not provided a precise set of circumstances that would be those which are necessary to win the soul of every person?", and the answer would be no. For some people, there is no such set of circumstances that would be sufficient for them to freely receive the salvation of Christ by the Holy Spirit's testimony. This is affirmed doubly in the Scriptures. First, in Daniel 12:10 concerning the course through to the end times Jesus says: "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand." Again, concerning God's providence Paul says in Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
It may also seem confusing to think that God has among His human creation "objects of wrath" which He prepares for destruction, until you comprehend these points and Scriptures collectively. There are some souls which God would create that will freely reject Him under any and all circumstances, but are still necessary in the grand scheme of world history to play a role in drawing all those who will be freely saved into that salvation. God Himself illustrates this wonderfully in His statement to Pharaoh in Exodus 9:15-16: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
See Acts 17:26-27, Genesis 50:20, Jeremiah 25:8-14 and Judges 14:4 for more Scriptural examples on the providence of God and how it works.
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And, that he uses the ones that would choose bad for an ultimately good and better and greater and higher purpose for the ultimate good and betterment of the good ones as well...
Perhaps, resulting in a way that we will still be able to have free will, but no one uses it to choose the bad anymore, but our free will remains in tact, perhaps...?
Any theories on what that way might be...?
(Tree of) Wisdom (Life) (Proverbs 3:13-18): Isaiah 7:15-16 "Before the Boy (Jesus and us after him) will know how to (of his own free will) reject the bad and (always) choose the good..."
God Bless!
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DoubtfulSalvation
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The Holy Spirit is so perfect that it fails in it's mission for 90% of the population. Some success rate, eh?
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Hi DS, the HS's "mission"? What is that, specifically & Biblically?
Thanks!
--David
p.s. - perhaps it should be mentioned again that this board is for Nicene Creed confessing Christians alone. As such, we regard the HS as the third "Person" of the Godhead, IOW, "He" should not be referred to as "it" (anymore than you would refer to any other person as an "it" in the manner you just did to Him above
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I think we have to consider that scripture alone won't be enough we also have to take into account who he is and apply it to the scriptures. The bible speaks of many things about who he is he is all powerful he is glorious he is righteous he has anger and sadness and he wrath as well but above all else to the deepest core of his heart he is love.
He wrote this story from beginning to end from gensis to revelation and what was the motive and reason he did it? Love. This is the love story of all love stories and I don't know about you but love doesn't choose favorites and discard certain ones to the pit of fire.
If you love someone you do anything for them you go to the extremes for them and that is exactly what jesus did and he would have done it a million times over for just one of us. This doesn't seem like the kind of person to go that far for the good and bad unless he believed there was hope for anyone to come to him.
This is why predestination doesn't feel right to me, in his nature he is kind loving and understanding in the worst and most evil of hearts he still seems to see something worth fighting for and while he has anger and wrath it is short lived.
He wrote this story from beginning to end from gensis to revelation and what was the motive and reason he did it? Love. This is the love story of all love stories and I don't know about you but love doesn't choose favorites and discard certain ones to the pit of fire.
If you love someone you do anything for them you go to the extremes for them and that is exactly what jesus did and he would have done it a million times over for just one of us. This doesn't seem like the kind of person to go that far for the good and bad unless he believed there was hope for anyone to come to him.
This is why predestination doesn't feel right to me, in his nature he is kind loving and understanding in the worst and most evil of hearts he still seems to see something worth fighting for and while he has anger and wrath it is short lived.
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- Jan 2, 2015
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Human reason is no substitute for careful study of God's word.
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Don't make the mistake of thinking I am putting my own reason above the word of God.
I only spoke of what I have come to know of him from spending massive amount of time with him seeking to know his heart and his nature more and more everyday taking every opportunity to dive a little deeper into that endless sea that is his heart.
Knowing scripture is one thing but knowing his heart and his nature and applying that to the scripture opens a whole new door of understanding of his word. Do you not read the scriptures with the knowledge of his heart as well? True we can never know his heart fully but he reveals his heart and nature to those who seek it and when one gains an understanding of who he is and applies to to scripture their views and understanding may very well change drastically
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Your post has only served to reaffirm my point.
Are you doing nothing more than creating a god in your own image based upon your feelings and intuition?
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Michael Scaman
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The truth is predestine is a word used a number of times in the New Testament so the question isn't whether it's true but what does it mean
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Endtime Survivors
prophecy link in my profile!
I think the drawing is for all people. God is at work in our lives and the world around us. As someone suggested earlier, some people respond and some people don't. That no one can come to the father unless he draws them is basically like saying, "No one can understand me unless they follow my ways", which is similar to Jesus saying, "If you want to know if the things I'm saying really are from God, then act on them".
The part about drawing all people to him when he's lifted up is probably a reference to his ability to offer forgiveness to all people, something which he could not do before he was lifted up (though it seems he did offer forgiveness to a few people along the way.
"Prepared for destruction" is probably a reference to consequences. God knew, right from the very start of his plan, that some people would choose to reject him. It seems to come across as a rather poetic way of saying, "destruction was part of God's plan for those people who refused to follow him".
Sure, God wants everyone to repent, but the reality is that not everyone will.
Depends. Eating nothing but ice cream for eternity will eventually start to feel like torture. I don't know if there will be a literal lake of fire where humans will burn forever. Something about that doesn't quite seem to add up as sensible. Perhaps people will burn for a certain amount of time paying for their sins and then burn up into nothingness.
However, to me, Hell is anywhere away from God, so that even being burnt out of existence is still an eternal punishment. Perhaps that's what Jesus meant by people being cast into "outer darkness".
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Samson Reaper
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Please can you show me where the New Testament God predestine damnation, or to use your words 'who will not be saved'.
Even after many years I have not found where it sat anything like this, rather the opposite- 1 Tim 2:4, I Peter 3:9 etc.
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