Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Riberra

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I disagree with your opinion now as a I have in the past because the Bible does not agree with you.

You said....
"The point being that that we will not ascend to Heaven when we will receive our resurrected body."

That is not Biblical. The Bible says in 1 Thess. 4:16-17.......
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
Jesus will descend from Heaven and we will meet Him in the clouds in the air.
No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there....

1 Corth. 15:51-54.........
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there neither.

John 14:1-3.......
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. "
Before that Jesus have ascended to Heaven the SOULS of all humans good or bad ended their Journey in a place -inside the Earth- called SHEOL or ''Tartarus'.

Now we all have a choice. WE CAN believe your stated opinions or we can believe the written Word of God. I for one will always choose the Word of God.
There is no mention of anyone that will be rapture up to Heaven where God reside while they are still alive mentioned in any of the passages that you have shown above.

Is there something else you would like to discuss concerning the Bible?

Then you once again said..........
" I said that ANGELS have access to the tree of life in Heaven".

There is ZERO Scriptures to support your comment. There are NO Bible verses to be found that will confirm your opinion.
The Bible tell us that the tree of life is in New Jerusalem the city of God Revelation 22:1-2.The City of God [and the tree of Life] are still in Heaven until New Jerusalem will come down on the New earth as mentioned in Revelation 21 and Revelation 22.
 
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keras

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What you have just shared my friend is completely your own opinion.
Well then, put up a scripture that does prove a rapture.
If a man believes in the Rapture as described in the Scriptures but then dies before the event, what has he lost by believing in such an event? He is saved and he goes to be with the Lord.
A Christian who dies is buried. Their souls await the resurrection to Judgement at the GWT. Where if their names are found in the Book of Life, they then will remain for eternity with the Lord. Rev 20:11-15
If a man believes in the Rapture as told to us in the Scriptures and the event does not happen and he goes through part of the Tribulation, what does it matter? He is a saved man and he knows that he is a child of God and he is safe in the arms of the Lord.
Unfortunately, those who think they won't face any of God's wrath, are unprepared for it and are likely to renounce their faith.
I am perplexed as to why you and others are so angry and argumentative over this subject. I am also concerned as to WHY you and others can not discuss this particular theological subject without becoming upset and making personal comments and accusations toward others who do not accept your opinions.
Where do I display anger? Where are my comments against you personally? These are false accusations.
I am deeply concerned for my fellow Christians who have been taught that to just accept Jesus is enough for them to go to heaven.
The whole of Church teaching on the Prophetic Word is so shockingly confused and erroneous and practically non existent, that it is a very serious indictment upon all who teach the Bible. Many prophesies say how they will be judged. God will say to them: Why didn't you teach the truth as it is plainly Written?
 
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Major1

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Jesus will descend from Heaven and we will meet Him in the clouds in the air.
No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there....


No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there neither.


Before that Jesus have ascended to Heaven the SOULS of all humans good or bad ended their Journey in a place -inside the Earth- called SHEOL or ''Tartarus'.


There is no mention of anyone that will be rapture up to Heaven where God reside while they are still alive mentioned in any of the passages that you have shown above.


The Bible tell us that the tree of life is in New Jerusalem the city of God Revelation 22:1-2.The City of God [and the tree of Life] are still in Heaven until New Jerusalem will come down on the New earth as mentioned in Revelation 21 and Revelation 22.

And around and around we go again..........

1).
"Jesus will descend from Heaven and we will meet Him in the clouds in the air.
No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there
...."

John 14:3.............
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

2).
"Before that Jesus have ascended to Heaven the SOULS of all humans good or bad ended their Journey in a place -inside the Earth- called SHEOL or ''Tartarus'.

That is Biblically true but you have not understood the rest of the story.
The souls of the wicked lost are still in SHEOL awaiting the 2nd resurrection.

Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind.....
“Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death is the lake of fire, in Revelation 20:14 has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” in Luke 14:14 and the “resurrection of life” in John 5:29.

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself the “first fruits,” in 1 Corinthians 15:20, paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints in Matthew 27:52-53 which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. It is that resurrection in which the Lord Jesus descended into SHEOL and then He took all of the Old Test. saints with Him when He ascended to heaven.
Therefore, the only ones in SHEOL today are the souls of the wicked lost of all ages.

Ephesians 4:8-9..........
"Therefore He says: When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
Now know this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."

1 Peter 3:18-19..........
" For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison".

Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return which is the Rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which comes right before the 7 year Tribulation and then resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:12-13 then identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the Great White Throne Judgment which is prior to being cast into the lake of fire AND after the 1000 year rule of Christ and BEFORE the New Heaven and New Earth. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” John 5:29.

The event which divides the first and second resurrections is the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” in Revelation 20:4, but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” Revelation 20:5.
 
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Postvieww

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My Observation and Opinion:


After over two years on this forum much of it discussing this rapture issue. I can report from my experience here I have witnessed no one switch sides on this issue. Everyone here is convinced they are adhering strictly to the word of God and all of the other posters are wrong. Let’s be honest with ourselves that cannot possibly be the case. I would venture to say every single person posting on this topic has some nuance of scripture wrong, and that includes myself. That is why I try to focus most of what I say on the text of scripture that does not mean I am perfect or I do not let my own opinions be know, because I do. I do try my best to refrain from the attitude that I could not possibly be wrong and all that disagree with me are in error. If I make a bold statement that I believe something is in error I try to explain why and how I came to my conclusion. Challenge me when I do and explain why you think I am wrong. Sometimes scripture speaks for its self with no interpretation needed. On this topic of the rapture that is not so cut and dried. Both sides use the very same scripture to make very different points.


Some who have been around here a while know that I was saved in 1980 and spent most of those years believing in and teaching a pre-trib rapture. I have far more material in my library on a pre-trib rapture that a post view. Why did I switch? It was a conversation with a co-worker about this topic; we were discussing 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and something inside made me pause and ask myself if what I believed was really true. I didn’t get it from a YouTube video, a sermon or this forum, I restudied what I had been taught and accepted without question and came to a different conclusion.


It has been my experience that pretrib side for the most part is more prone to get into name calling and derogatory statements, but there is far too much on each side. If you doubt that statement you should look through my files from this forum, some pretty nasty stuff.


I would love to see a thread on this topic with straight forward honest debate on the merits with no name calling and Holier than thou attitudes but I know that is a tall order.


To the original point of this thread” Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?” My answer would be if you are looking for a clearly stated passage that can undeniably be said to be the Rapture, there is not one. If you are willing hear a case made for one, the 7th trumpet would be as close as we can come, IMHO. Even post tribbers cannot agree on that one so where does that leave us?
 
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Riberra

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And around and around we go again..........

1).
"Jesus will descend from Heaven and we will meet Him in the clouds in the air.
No mention of going up to Heaven mentioned there
...."

John 14:3.............
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
All the apostles have died and their SOULS are in HEAVEN in the place that Jesus have prepared for them and for all the believers in Jesus.
So don't worry your SOUL will go to Heaven when you will die like any believers.Jesus have come on the Earth to save our SOUL FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION IN THE LAKE OF FIRE if we repent from our sins and we believe in Him ....not to save our physical body while alive.
-Nobody will be taken to Heaven while alive
-At the resurrection to eternal life we will have a new physical body.

2).
"Before that Jesus have ascended to Heaven the SOULS of all humans good or bad ended their Journey in a place -inside the Earth- called SHEOL or ''Tartarus'.

That is Biblically true but you have not understood the rest of the story.
The souls of the wicked lost are still in SHEOL awaiting the 2nd resurrection.
-My comment implied that the SOULS of the believers goes to Heaven in the place that Jesus have prepared for them...waiting for their resurrection to eternal life who will happen when Jesus will descend with their Souls for their resurrection who will happen on the Earth .

-While that the souls of the wicked unrepentant sinners goes into SHEOL [a place inside the earth ]waiting for their resurrection to eternal damnation in the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
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Major1

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My Observation and Opinion:


After over two years on this forum much of it discussing this rapture issue. I can report from my experience here I have witnessed no one switch sides on this issue. Everyone here is convinced they are adhering strictly to the word of God and all of the other posters are wrong. Let’s be honest with ourselves that cannot possibly be the case. I would venture to say every single person posting on this topic has some nuance of scripture wrong, and that includes myself. That is why I try to focus most of what I say on the text of scripture that does not mean I am perfect or I do not let my own opinions be know, because I do. I do try my best to refrain from the attitude that I could not possibly be wrong and all that disagree with me are in error. If I make a bold statement that I believe something is in error I try to explain why and how I came to my conclusion. Challenge me when I do and explain why you think I am wrong. Sometimes scripture speaks for its self with no interpretation needed. On this topic of the rapture that is not so cut and dried. Both sides use the very same scripture to make very different points.


Some who have been around here a while know that I was saved in 1980 and spent most of those years believing in and teaching a pre-trib rapture. I have far more material in my library on a pre-trib rapture that a post view. Why did I switch? It was a conversation with a co-worker about this topic; we were discussing 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and something inside made me pause and ask myself if what I believed was really true. I didn’t get it from a YouTube video, a sermon or this forum, I restudied what I had been taught and accepted without question and came to a different conclusion.


It has been my experience that pretrib side for the most part is more prone to get into name calling and derogatory statements, but there is far too much on each side. If you doubt that statement you should look through my files from this forum, some pretty nasty stuff.


I would love to see a thread on this topic with straight forward honest debate on the merits with no name calling and Holier than thou attitudes but I know that is a tall order.


To the original point of this thread” Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?” My answer would be if you are looking for a clearly stated passage that can undeniably be said to be the Rapture, there is not one. If you are willing hear a case made for one, the 7th trumpet would be as close as we can come, IMHO. Even post tribbers cannot agree on that one so where does that leave us?

I agree with you!

I have actually been teaching my understanding since 1975.

IMO there is absolutely a Resurrection. The problem we are all talking about then is WHEN that takes place and not IF it takes place.

Some of us say before the Trib., some in the middle and some at Armageddon. At least that is my observation.

It seems to me that on Christian forums we see that most people have a need to be correct in their thinking. You are correct, I have seen NO ONE change their thinking on the Rapture because we all just have to be right and we just have to project a sense of being smarter than everyone else. That is the nature of humans.

Another observation is that on all internet Christian forums, there is NO accountability to anyone.
That means people can come up with all kinds of nonsense which makes absolutely no Biblical sense what so ever. You see, if something is cultish or wrong or just plain stupid who cares.

Now when a person is in a church as a pastor or in a college as a teacher and promotes anti-Bible teachings which can not be validated, he loses his job because people stop attending. Pretty simple actually!!!!

The other reason Christians seem be so obsessed with the Rapture, and it isn’t high-minded or Biblical: It’s the simple truth that none of us know with absolute certainty what will happen to us when we die. We all want to be sure that something good will happen to us, or, at the very least, that nothing particularly bad will befall us once we’ve shuffled off this old earth.

Here is a thought, maybe heaven is a story we tell ourselves in order to live. Just a thought.
 
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Major1

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All the apostles have died and their SOULS are in HEAVEN in the place that Jesus have prepared for them and for all the believers in Jesus.
So don't worry your SOUL will go to Heaven when you will die like any believers.Jesus have come on the Earth to save our SOUL FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION IN THE LAKE OF FIRE if we repent from our sins and we believe in Him .
-Our physical body will return to dust when we will die.
-Nobody will be taken to Heaven while alive.
-At the resurrection to eternal life we will have a new physical body.


-My comment implied that the SOULS of the believers goes to Heaven in the place that Jesus have prepared for them...waiting for their resurrection to eternal life who will happen when Jesus will descend with their Souls for their resurrection who will happen on the Earth .

-While that the souls of the wicked unrepentant sinners goes into SHEOL [a place inside the earth ]waiting for their resurrection to eternal damnation in the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Isn't that what I said???
 
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Riberra

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Isn't that what I said???
Why then do you still preach that Jesus will come to RAPTURE us to Heaven when we are still alive in our physical body....while the Bible teach that only our SOUL goes to HEAVEN and that happen only when the physical body is dead.
 
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keras

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Even post tribbers cannot agree on that one so where does that leave us?
It leaves us with the truth that there is no rapture to heaven for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses and they are killed first.

I think we are getting somewhere with this vexed ‘rapture question’.
The basic premise of a rapture removal to heaven is unsupported by any scripture. It is only by inference and supposition that such an idea is believed. All of the prophesies that have been used to prove a rapture can be seen to actually mean something else altogether.

It is Written that we Christians are not appointed to experience God’s wrath. So it is assumed by the rapture adherent’s that this means removal, but they make this assumption without consideration of the many verses saying how God will protect His people during His times of wrath and judgement upon the ungodly.

We Christians have been told what we are expected to do:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go to all the peoples, baptize them and teach them all that I have commanded you and I will be with you always, to the end of time.
Jesus is with us spiritually now and will be here physically after He Returns for His Millennium reign.

This does not in any way even hint that we leave our work on earth and go to heaven. Jesus comes down from heaven and eventually God too, will dwell on earth. Rev 21:3
 
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Major1

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Why then do you still preach that Jesus will come to RAPTURE us to Heaven when we are still alive in our physical body....while the Bible teach that only our SOUL goes to HEAVEN and that happen only when the physical body is dead.

Because that is what the Bible says.

You said........
"All the apostles have died and their SOULS are in HEAVEN in the place that Jesus have prepared for them and for all the believers in Jesus."

I agreed with that comment and in fact ALL believers souls are in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ as that is what the Bible says.

The Body, which I have stated to you before, the bodies of ALL people goes into the ground waiting on the resurrection whether it be at the Rapture which is for the believers or the 2nd Resurrection of the wicked lost 1000 years later.

1 Thess. 4:14-17.......
"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
 
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Major1

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It leaves us with the truth that there is no rapture to heaven for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses and they are killed first.

I think we are getting somewhere with this vexed ‘rapture question’.
The basic premise of a rapture removal to heaven is unsupported by any scripture. It is only by inference and supposition that such an idea is believed. All of the prophesies that have been used to prove a rapture can be seen to actually mean something else altogether.

It is Written that we Christians are not appointed to experience God’s wrath. So it is assumed by the rapture adherent’s that this means removal, but they make this assumption without consideration of the many verses saying how God will protect His people during His times of wrath and judgement upon the ungodly.

We Christians have been told what we are expected to do:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go to all the peoples, baptize them and teach them all that I have commanded you and I will be with you always, to the end of time.
Jesus is with us spiritually now and will be here physically after He Returns for His Millennium reign.

This does not in any way even hint that we leave our work on earth and go to heaven. Jesus comes down from heaven and eventually God too, will dwell on earth. Rev 21:3

Actually I agree with you.

The Bible verses that people believe refer to the Rapture actually do....... or they do not.

It is simply a matter of believing then isn't it?????

BUT.......when you do not believe that those verses refer to a "Catching Away, or Removal or Rapture" then it is incumbent upon those who do not believe to explain the meaning of those verses.

So then.....what is the explanation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 since it does not refer to a Rapture of the believers.

What do those verse mean??????

Now please do not copy and paste something from a web site dedicated to the non-Rapture position. What do those verse say to YOU.
 
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Riberra

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Because that is what the Bible says.

You said........
"All the apostles have died and their SOULS are in HEAVEN in the place that Jesus have prepared for them and for all the believers in Jesus."

I agreed with that comment and in fact ALL believers souls are in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ as that is what the Bible says.

The Body, which I have stated to you before, the bodies of ALL people goes into the ground waiting on the resurrection whether it be at the Rapture which is for the believers or the 2nd Resurrection of the wicked lost 1000 years later.

1 Thess. 4:14-17.......
"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
-The reason that Jesus will descend from Heaven that will be to establish His Kingdom on the Earth ...Jesus will not return back to Heaven
-Unto His Coming in the Clouds the dead in Christ will rise [resurrect] and the believers alive and remain will be changed and we will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air 1 Thess. 4:14-17.
-While we will be in the clouds in the air with Jesus the marriage will happen because that is ONLY at that moment [Unto the Coming of Jesus] that the dead believers and the believers still alive and remain will be reunited to be forever with Jesus here on the earth ...we will be with Jesus here on the Earth during the millennial reign of Jesus .

-The Bible tell us that after the millennium reign of Jesus on the Earth, God the Father will live with us on the New Earth forever Revelation 21 Revelation 22.

-Nowhere it is said that we will ascend to Heaven when we will receive our resurrected body.
 
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Postvieww

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Actually I agree with you.

The Bible verses that people believe refer to the Rapture actually do....... or they do not.

It is simply a matter of believing then isn't it?????

BUT.......when you do not believe that those verses refer to a "Catching Away, or Removal or Rapture" then it is incumbent upon those who do not believe to explain the meaning of those verses.

So then.....what is the explanation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 since it does not refer to a Rapture of the believers.

What do those verse mean??????

Now please do not copy and paste something from a web site dedicated to the non-Rapture position. What do those verse say to YOU.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

To me this verse says the souls of those that have died and gone on to be with Christ will return with Him to be reunited with a resurrected body.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I believe this tells us the dead in Christ will be raised just before those that are alive are changed and caught up (1 Corin. 15:51) when Christ returns.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I see in this verse is being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air as He returns . What I do not see anywhere in this verse is a return trip to heaven.


The phrase “and so shall we ever be with the Lord” to me only says we will ever be with the Lord it does not designate the location.


Those that assume a return trip to heaven for 7 or 3 1/2 years should have to show that from scripture not just assume it to be true.


It is my believe from the scripture when Jesus returns to this earth He stays to rule and reign and we will ever be with the Lord right here on this earth. I support that belief partly with the fact that I know of no scripture that undeniably shows resurrected saints in heaven at any time. In Revelation we have the souls of saints mentioned and scenes which many assume are the resurrected church. I am waiting to see a clear definitive passage presented to show a resurrected church in heaven.


Many use:

John14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I believe these mansions are described in Revelation 12 as coming down from heaven to the New earth where we will then “enter in” Rev 21:27 that place “prepared” Rev 21:2.

My human reasoning argument here is why would Jesus spent all this time preparing mansions for a weekend trip to heaven while the tribulation is going on.? Just an opinion.


3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The phrase “that where I am, there ye may be also” used by many to show a return to heaven does not say that in the text. When Jesus comes He will be here to rule and reign , He will not be in heaven.


This is the readers digest version there is much more than what I presented here.
 
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So then.....what is the explanation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 since it does not refer to a Rapture of the believers.
Riberra and Postview have answered this very well.
The 'catching up' will be the same as what happened to Philip, Acts 8:39, a transportation from on place on earth to another. Initially in this case; in the clouds to meet Him, as He descends with us toward Jerusalem.
We must also be sure of who this amazing event pertains to:
....those of us who are still alive.... This surely means many will die before it happens. Exactly as Revelation 13:10 and Daniel 11:29-35 say. Christians WILL be tested for their faith and we must endure even to the death. Revelation 12:11
 
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Major1

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Riberra and Postview have answered this very well.
The 'catching up' will be the same as what happened to Philip, Acts 8:39, a transportation from on place on earth to another. Initially in this case; in the clouds to meet Him, as He descends with us toward Jerusalem.
We must also be sure of who this amazing event pertains to:
....those of us who are still alive.... This surely means many will die before it happens. Exactly as Revelation 13:10 and Daniel 11:29-35 say. Christians WILL be tested for their faith and we must endure even to the death. Revelation 12:11

What Riberra and postview did was to post their opinions and not Bible truth and contextual exegesis of said Scriptures.

What they said and what you believe is not Bible exegesis in any way that is acceptable.

You see, all 3 of you have to MAKE those verses say what you need for them to say to make your false theology work for you. That is the classic operation of false teachers.

You see, the Bible says that Philip DIED and he saw Jesus in heaven by the right hand of God.

The Bible DOES NOT SAY that ......" This surely means many will die before it happens".
That is you adding your opinion to the Word of God!!!

Rev. 13:10 has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians today or that they will be killed in 1 Thessalonian's 4:13-17. Rev, 13:10 is not for us today and once again you are working to make Scriptures fit your opinions and you are wrong. Rev. 13 is yet future and contextually all about those who will be saved during the Tribulation Peroid.

Obviously you have never read Daniel 11:29-35. Daniel 11:2-35 have already been fulfilled.
Those verses ARE NOT ABOUT CHRISTIANS or the Church. They are about Daniel's people, The SAINTS who are contextually the JEWS!!!!!!

11:36 then is the introduction of the A/C.......The King who shall do according to his will is the still to come A/C.

My friend.....please read the book instead of just posting verses that you think will help your cause.
 
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Major1

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1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

To me this verse says the souls of those that have died and gone on to be with Christ will return with Him to be reunited with a resurrected body.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I believe this tells us the dead in Christ will be raised just before those that are alive are changed and caught up (1 Corin. 15:51) when Christ returns.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I see in this verse is being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air as He returns . What I do not see anywhere in this verse is a return trip to heaven.


The phrase “and so shall we ever be with the Lord” to me only says we will ever be with the Lord it does not designate the location.


Those that assume a return trip to heaven for 7 or 3 1/2 years should have to show that from scripture not just assume it to be true.


It is my believe from the scripture when Jesus returns to this earth He stays to rule and reign and we will ever be with the Lord right here on this earth. I support that belief partly with the fact that I know of no scripture that undeniably shows resurrected saints in heaven at any time. In Revelation we have the souls of saints mentioned and scenes which many assume are the resurrected church. I am waiting to see a clear definitive passage presented to show a resurrected church in heaven.


Many use:

John14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I believe these mansions are described in Revelation 12 as coming down from heaven to the New earth where we will then “enter in” Rev 21:27 that place “prepared” Rev 21:2.

My human reasoning argument here is why would Jesus spent all this time preparing mansions for a weekend trip to heaven while the tribulation is going on.? Just an opinion.


3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The phrase “that where I am, there ye may be also” used by many to show a return to heaven does not say that in the text. When Jesus comes He will be here to rule and reign , He will not be in heaven.


This is the readers digest version there is much more than what I presented here.
And of course I have to disagree with your thinking.

On these verses, Our friend Riberra agrees with you but Keras says that we will all die just as did Steven and that is what those verses mean.

NOPE. They mean exactly what they say.

God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Them we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and then we all will be in heaven with the Trinity.

The Bible actually says in 1 Thess. 4:17........"And so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Where do you believe that the Lord is?

I have always been taught to believe that the Lord has a home in heaven.

You quoted John 14:3 where Jesus says that In His fathers house are many mansions and if I go there I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am you shall be also.

Did not Stephen in Acts while say....I see HEAVEN open and Jesus at the right hand of the Father".

I am really questioning your ability here in understanding the Word of God as this really is not brain surgery.
 
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What Riberra and postview did was to post their opinions and not Bible truth and contextual exegesis of said Scriptures.

What they said and what you believe is not Bible exegesis in any way that is acceptable.
Can you make the contextual exegesis of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 verses by verses and explain to us where you do see in those verses the text saying that the things mentioned ie[the resurrection of the dead believers ,the changing of the believers still alive and the caught up to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in the AIR] will happen 7 years before the Coming of Jesus ?
 
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keras

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On these verses, Our friend Riberra agrees with you but Keras says that we will all die just as did Steven and that is what those verses mean.
I wouldn't bother to reply, but blatant mis representation of what I said, cannot pass unrefuted.
those who remain....is clear, there will be those who survive the Great Tribulation. But it will only be those who have kept strong in their faith in God during the terrible testing time of the GT.
Those who kept the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are the group of Chrstians who will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the GT.
You see, the Bible says that Philip DIED and he saw Jesus in heaven by the right hand of God.
Your confusion of Stephen and Philip shows how seriously off track you are in your knowledge of Bible truths.
We question your ability to understand scripture.
 
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And of course I have to disagree with your thinking.

On these verses, Our friend Riberra agrees with you but Keras says that we will all die just as did Steven and that is what those verses mean.

NOPE. They mean exactly what they say.

God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Them we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and then we all will be in heaven with the Trinity.

The Bible actually says in 1 Thess. 4:17........"And so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Where do you believe that the Lord is?

I have always been taught to believe that the Lord has a home in heaven.

You quoted John 14:3 where Jesus says that In His fathers house are many mansions and if I go there I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am you shall be also.

Did not Stephen in Acts while say....I see HEAVEN open and Jesus at the right hand of the Father".

I am really questioning your ability here in understanding the Word of God as this really is not brain surgery.

Major1 Post #1035

You see, all 3 of you have to MAKE those verses say what you need for them to say to make your false theology work for you. That is the classic operation of false teachers.

Did you not do just this when you said:

“God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Them we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and then we all will be in heaven with the Trinity.

Where specifically in the text does it say “we will all be in heaven with the Trinity” ? I answered this point before you stated it. Again, the passage in Verses 14 an 15 says specifically Jesus will come and nowhere in the entire passage does it say He will return to heaven. That is not my interpretation or wishful thinking but the reality of what is written.

Major1 said:

The Bible actually says in 1 Thess. 4:17........"And so shall we ever be with the Lord".

I stand by my exegesis here, when Jesus comes to this earth He is here and we will be with Him, it is incumbent on you to show from the text we will return to heaven. Is not taking the phrase "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" and making it say “we all will be in heaven with the Trinity” adding to the word of God and adding opinion?

Major1 said:

Where do you believe that the Lord is?”

Right now He is in heaven and when he comes He will be here, I agree with you totally “this really is not brain surgery”. I challenge you to post any scripture that says He returns to heaven without doing what you accuse us of doing.


The same point stands for John 14:3 “that where I am there ye may be also” When Jesus said these words He was here and in verse 3 He said He will come again, when He comes again He will be here. If the passage said I will come again and take you back to where I came from your point would be valid, but the text does not say that, I believe it is an opinion that “makes” it say that we will go back to heaven with Him.


Major1 said:

I have always been taught to believe that the Lord has a home in heaven.

For the vast majority of my life I was taught that too, but I had to face the reality that I could not find that in the scriptures. It is a tough thing to change a lifelong belief and say to myself and others I was wrong. I believe it is clear from many passages when Jesus returns He will rule and reign here.


As I said in an earlier post I will challenge you on what the scriptures say and I will try my best not to appear to impugn your integrity, motives or intelligence.
 
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Major1

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Major1 Post #1035

You see, all 3 of you have to MAKE those verses say what you need for them to say to make your false theology work for you. That is the classic operation of false teachers.

Did you not do just this when you said:

“God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Them we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and then we all will be in heaven with the Trinity.

Where specifically in the text does it say “we will all be in heaven with the Trinity” ? I answered this point before you stated it. Again, the passage in Verses 14 an 15 says specifically Jesus will come and nowhere in the entire passage does it say He will return to heaven. That is not my interpretation or wishful thinking but the reality of what is written.

Major1 said:

The Bible actually says in 1 Thess. 4:17........"And so shall we ever be with the Lord".

I stand by my exegesis here, when Jesus comes to this earth He is here and we will be with Him, it is incumbent on you to show from the text we will return to heaven. Is not taking the phrase "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" and making it say “we all will be in heaven with the Trinity” adding to the word of God and adding opinion?

Major1 said:

Where do you believe that the Lord is?”

Right now He is in heaven and when he comes He will be here, I agree with you totally “this really is not brain surgery”. I challenge you to post any scripture that says He returns to heaven without doing what you accuse us of doing.


The same point stands for John 14:3 “that where I am there ye may be also” When Jesus said these words He was here and in verse 3 He said He will come again, when He comes again He will be here. If the passage said I will come again and take you back to where I came from your point would be valid, but the text does not say that, I believe it is an opinion that “makes” it say that we will go back to heaven with Him.


Major1 said:

I have always been taught to believe that the Lord has a home in heaven.

For the vast majority of my life I was taught that too, but I had to face the reality that I could not find that in the scriptures. It is a tough thing to change a lifelong belief and say to myself and others I was wrong. I believe it is clear from many passages when Jesus returns He will rule and reign here.


As I said in an earlier post I will challenge you on what the scriptures say and I will try my best not to appear to impugn your integrity, motives or intelligence.

Same here my friend. We disagree on this and even it seems on what the Scriptures say.

“God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Then we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye."

My understanding then is that we all will be in heaven with the Trinity. We will then return with Him 7 years later.

I agree completely that in the time to come, Jesus will rule and reign on the earth. Not because YOU say that but because that is what the Scriptures actually do say.

Psalm 2:6-9
David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth” from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1-4
Isaiah says that “in the last days” the Messiah will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and the entire world will experience peace.

Jeremiah 33:6-18
A day will come when the Lord will regather the dispersed of both Judah and Israel and will save a great remnant. At that time the Lord “will cause a rigthteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.”

Joel 3:14-17,21
Joel says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 14-16), the Lord will dwell “in Zion, My holy mountain.” He repeats this in verse 21. And in verse 17 He identifies Zion as the city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:5
John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.”

Revelation 20:4,6
John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints (“those to whom judgment has been given”) for a thousand years.

It is my understanding that the Bride of Christ is a city in which the Church will have its habitation and Christians who make up the church, will be able to go where they want to go. The new City and the Bride of Christ are one in the same as it seems they are synominous.

Rev. 21:2........
"Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Rev. 21:9.......
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

Now, if we remove the doctrinal teaching of "Implied Truth" from the Scriptures we have no Biblical exegesis of the Trinity, the Rapture, even the word Bible itself is not found in the Scriptures. There is actually no explanation given of God in the Scriptures.

Genesis 1:1....."In the beginning, GOD".

No explanation is given of His existence beyond "Implied Truth". He is just there, GOD. It is actually an assumption, is it not?

Then if we apply that to Jesus being on the earth and ruling literally, based on Revelation 20, when we then read Rev. 20 we find something very interesting. There is no mention of Jesus being on earth in Revelation 20.

Implied Truth says that He is, but if we go by the strict letter of the word itself, it does not say so.

IMO Rev. 20:4 says...........
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Actually I am not arguing with you on this as we seem to be agreeing because I believe that Jesus will be on the earth, and we will be with Him because IMO that is what the context of all the Scriptures say to me.

But as you can see from those who post here that many go out of their way to try and disprove something based on the "letter" of strict interpretation instead of "Implied Truth".

Having said that, then there are those who will argue that there is no need for an earthly throne for Jesus.

Doesn't the Bible say literally that Jesus’ throne is in heaven????

Isaiah 66:1........
“Thus says the Lord, ‘Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me?’”

Dose't Acts 2:29-36 tell us that Jesus occupies David’s throne in heaven?????????

Looking at Hebrews 12:2 again, what is it that I posted for you?

We find that Jesus “sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
 
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