Universal Reconciliation

John Hyperspace

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Universal reconciliation. No greater doctrine of love and forgiveness exists. I ask that, for a moment, let's see if the scripture supports the doctrine of universal reconciliation. I will cite verses with brief comments. Imagine for a moment that these passages are all that exist in the scripture. If these passages were the only verses in scripture, would you not walk away thinking, "It's true; universal reconciliation is clearly true"?

Now, bear in mind, I'm not saying "Then it is true" (since these are not the only passages in scripture); but what I am saying is that, these passages are very clear support of the doctrine. So, no one can say "There is no scriptural support of the doctrine of universal reconciliation" but, they may try to refute it, contradict it, and/or attempt to support another doctrine that contradicts what these passages teach. But can it be done with substance? Do the arguments against really hold up to rigorous evaluation? Or can we merely offer up a different doctrine which leaves us with two doctrines with equal support, leaving us to determine which of the two is true? That question is what is to be evaluated in this thread. So let's get busy evaluating. Now, here is clear support of universal reconciliation:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This word "draw" meaning "to drag" (even against the desire of the one being dragged); used elsewhere of "drawing" a net of fishes, and "drawing" men before councils: John 6:44, John 21:6, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, James 2:6: so everyone will be "dragged" to Christ; come willingly, or, be dragged to Him.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

God is reconciling everything to Himself. Not just "believers" in the here and now, but the world entire. This word of reconciliation has been comitted to us who believe in the here and now.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

He is able to subdue all things; but is He willing, and will He perform that which He is able to perform?

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

He will perform it, and subdue all things to Him.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Every knee; not some knees and some few tongues: every knee: every tongue will confess "Jesus is Lord":

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Every confessing tongue will be doing so by the Holy Spirit; thus the Holy Spirit will be working in every tongue, of, every man, and every knee will bow.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All die without choice in Adam; all will likewise be made alive in Christ. There is no putting off of either. It will happen to all to die in Adam; it will happen to all to live in Christ. No exceptions.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Not the "would-be" Saviour of the world; not the "almost" Saviour of the world; not the "Saviour only of them that now believe": but Saviour of the world. No one can be the Saviour of something without actually saving that something.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Not the "would-be" Saviour of all men; not the "almost" Saviour of all men. The Saviour of all men: especially them that believe; thus not only the Saviour of them that believe: but of all men, specially them that now believe.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Not willing that any perish but all come; willing that all be saved and come. Will the will of God be defeated?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The will of God will not, and cannot, be defeated. What He wills is what is done; in earth as it is in heaven. Do you pray His will be done? If so, you must pray for universal reconciliation since that is His will.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

All things are under Him; but not yet do we see it. Yet, we will see it: every man in his own order and time according to the will and purpose of God and God alone.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
 

DrBubbaLove

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I suppose we could imagine all sorts of things, including that the understanding depicted of the verses given to support what we imagine being the only way to understand those verses - even while imagining that no contrary verses existed to what we are being asked to imagine that those selected verses mean/imply

So if we presume this is all part of what we are imagining, then sure the answer would be yes. But we can all imagine many things. Am not sure where that gets us on asking why UR is rejected by traditional Christian theology.
 
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John Hyperspace

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I suppose we could imagine all sorts of things, including that the understanding depicted of the verses given to support what we imagine being the only way to understand those verses - even while imagining that no contrary verses existed to what we are being asked to imagine that those selected verses mean/imply

Are you suggesting "imagination" is the result of reading words? Is everything you believe "imagination"? I propose that when we read words, our understanding will come from such reading, and is not imagination at all, but is called "comprehension": are you able to read the passages?

Note that I've already stated that these passages are not the only passages in scripture; but when taking as a group, they clearly support universal reconciliation. I'm now seeing if anyone can provide support for an alternate understanding. So far, the thread is very silent of support of any other doctrine. Could other such unsupported doctrine be the result of imagination? So far in this thread, there is only support for universal reconciliation.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Now, someone might say "But, John; doesn't the scripture say that people are lost? That they are destroyed?" Indeed scripture does teach this. In fact, even as Christians we were also once lost and destroyed. But God saved us in our perished state, God saved us from our death; from our being lost. That's the thing about God, He has the power to raise the dead, and to rebuild that which is destroyed.

Bear in mind when reading a passage speaking of "death" and "destruction" and being "lost" that these passages do not clearly state "and will never be made alive again" or "and never will be rebuilt" or "and never will be saved": indeed, the passages in the original post are clear, and there is no need to "assume" any different outcome when seeing such words as "death" and "destruction":

Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Now you see that Israel was destroyed, and in ruin; with great destruction from the Lord: yet, He says "In Me is your help": thus we see that being "destroyed" is not a problem for God to overcome, in His mercy of help to them that are destroyed.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost <622>.

Now this word "lost" is the same as translated "perished" elsewhere. Again we see that them that are "perished" and "lost" are not without hope in God.

Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish <622>; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Now we see again; that all these things will "perish" and be "destroyed" but note the power of God: they will be changed. So, you see that "death" and "lost" and "destruction" never need be "assumed" to be a "full end" but God is able to rebuild that which is destroyed; to save that which is lost; even to give life to that which is dead:

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

So then, we have these passages in the original post showing clear support that "all will come to Him" but this is "not yet" but "to every man in his own order": and no verse will ever contradict these, and there is no cause in seeing a passage which says "will enter into destruction" and then say "then all will not come" as if the scripture clearly teaching "all will come" is somehow not of God, or, not truthful. But we need to understand these things in light of scripture. That even though a man enter into destruction, this doesn't mean that the man will never be reconciled to God, the very scripture promises that he will: but the man will need to be rescued from destruction by the help of God who said: thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Are you suggesting "imagination" is the result of reading words? Is everything you believe "imagination"? I propose that when we read words, our understanding will come from such reading, and is not imagination at all, but is called "comprehension": are you able to read the passages?

Note that I've already stated that these passages are not the only passages in scripture; but when taking as a group, they clearly support universal reconciliation. I'm now seeing if anyone can provide support for an alternate understanding. So far, the thread is very silent of support of any other doctrine. Could other such unsupported doctrine be the result of imagination? So far in this thread, there is only support for universal reconciliation.
Not at all unless the OP is revised.
The OP asked us to imagine if there were no verses refuting UR and then it ASSUMES UR is supported by the singular/selected meanings depicted for all those verses then asks would we then not agree that UR is true. I simply pointed out that the conclusion UR is true in this imaginary question supposes we agree those verses all mean what the OP states. Am suggesting as long as we are being asked to imagine there are no verses contrary to UR, why should we assume the verses presented mean or imply UR is true when there are other possible understandings of those same verses. So in order to imagine the OP conclusion, we would have to also imagine the only possible understanding of those verses is one that supports UR.

The OP does not ask anyone to question the verses given or refute the explanations give. It simply asks if those were the ONLY verses in the Bible addressing our eternal fates, would we agree UR is true. Obviously with all the UR threads in CF the answer is a resounding NO. And there are plenty of threads where every single verse given in the OP is presented in a manner that does not support UR. I doubt representing those arguments again here would change anyone's mind.

The statement in the above post concerning "death", "destruction" and "lost" and no reason for "assuming" is blatantly false for the same reasons. If there were no reasons, then clearly we would all be in agreement and UR would not be a relatively small subset of Christian beliefs on this matter.

How bad is the heresy of belief in UR is probably a question of how far one goes with it and why one believes it to be true. A simple error or confusion on other points; for instance like thinking God's Love must trump free will would not be as bad a mistake as ausing UR to deny or diminish God's Wrath toward sin or to deny/understate the human sinfulness of all of us.

I like the analogy often given to a peace after a war being either imposed by the Conqueror on those defeated or accepted by the surrender of the defeated to the Conqueror. Where Peace is imposed the defeated will always be bitter, angry and hateful toward the One imposing - gnashing of teeth is apt description of such a "Peace". God has already defeated evil, the victory is won and He has set the terms of our individual surrender, as we all are part of that army that opposes Him. Those terms are offered to ALL of us and He made the Peace possible for all of us. Whether we accept the terms and surrender to Him is still on us.

For there to be peace, as sinful men we still either have to accept the terms and surrender ourselves to Him or have the peace imposed on us if we do not surrender (meaning Hell). Every knee will bow to His Victory, whether that bow represents a surrender or being forced to bow - the gesture is the same. The offer He repeatedly made of eternal Happiness with Him was only phrased in terms where we surrender completely to Him during this life.

We also cannot forget the Cost of the victory that made Peace possible for mankind. Am not sure how to view that Cost as necessary at all if we insist it be true that some sufficient time in a Hell for each of us would be all that is necessary to convince us to surrender completely to Him. That would also be an example of imposing Peace on everyone against our will, which we know fails to change hearts or minds in this world. So it would also seem extremely overly optimistic to assume such an imposition of Hell would change hearts and mind in the world to come. Bow now or bow later, but every knee will bow and there will be Peace in all of Creation - as in no more rebellion. But only those bowing now eternally sharing in His Happiness.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Not at all unless the OP is revised.
The OP asked us to imagine if there were no verses refuting UR and then it ASSUMES UR is supported by the singular/selected meanings depicted for all those verses then asks would we then not agree that UR is true. I simply pointed out that the conclusion UR is true in this imaginary question supposes we agree those verses all mean what the OP states. Am suggesting as long as we are being asked to imagine there are no verses contrary to UR, why should we assume the verses presented mean or imply UR is true when there are other possible understandings of those same verses. So in order to imagine the OP conclusion, we would have to also imagine the only possible understanding of those verses is one that supports UR.

The OP does not ask anyone to question the verses given or refute the explanations give. It simply asks if those were the ONLY verses in the Bible addressing our eternal fates, would we agree UR is true. Obviously with all the UR threads in CF the answer is a resounding NO. And there are plenty of threads where every single verse given in the OP is presented in a manner that does not support UR. I doubt representing those arguments again here would change anyone's mind.

The statement in the above post concerning "death", "destruction" and "lost" and no reason for "assuming" is blatantly false for the same reasons. If there were no reasons, then clearly we would all be in agreement and UR would not be a relatively small subset of Christian beliefs on this matter.

How bad is the heresy of belief in UR is probably a question of how far one goes with it and why one believes it to be true. A simple error or confusion on other points; for instance like thinking God's Love must trump free will would not be as bad a mistake as ausing UR to deny or diminish God's Wrath toward sin or to deny/understate the human sinfulness of all of us.

I like the analogy often given to a peace after a war being either imposed by the Conqueror on those defeated or accepted by the surrender of the defeated to the Conqueror. Where Peace is imposed the defeated will always be bitter, angry and hateful toward the One imposing - gnashing of teeth is apt description of such a "Peace". God has already defeated evil, the victory is won and He has set the terms of our individual surrender, as we all are part of that army that opposes Him. Those terms are offered to ALL of us and He made the Peace possible for all of us. Whether we accept the terms and surrender to Him is still on us.

For there to be peace, as sinful men we still either have to accept the terms and surrender ourselves to Him or have the peace imposed on us if we do not surrender (meaning Hell). Every knee will bow to His Victory, whether that bow represents a surrender or being forced to bow - the gesture is the same. The offer He repeatedly made of eternal Happiness with Him was only phrased in terms where we surrender completely to Him during this life.

We also cannot forget the Cost of the victory that made Peace possible for mankind. Am not sure how to view that Cost as necessary at all if we insist it be true that some sufficient time in a Hell for each of us would be all that is necessary to convince us to surrender completely to Him. That would also be an example of imposing Peace on everyone against our will, which we know fails to change hearts or minds in this world. So it would also seem extremely overly optimistic to assume such an imposition of Hell would change hearts and mind in the world to come. Bow now or bow later, but every knee will bow and there will be Peace in all of Creation - as in no more rebellion. But only those bowing now eternally sharing in His Happiness.

That's a lot of talking. Is it possible you could support any of that with actual scripture?
 
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John Hyperspace

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Not at all unless the OP is revised.
The OP asked us to imagine if there were no verses refuting UR and then it ASSUMES UR is supported by the singular/selected meanings depicted for all those verses then asks would we then not agree that UR is true. I simply pointed out that the conclusion UR is true in this imaginary question supposes we agree those verses all mean what the OP states.

Feel free to offer alternative explanations of the passages cited; they're pretty clear as they are; and as of now they clearly support universal reconciliation.

The statement in the above post concerning "death", "destruction" and "lost" and no reason for "assuming" is blatantly false for the same reasons. If there were no reasons, then clearly we would all be in agreement and UR would not be a relatively small subset of Christian beliefs on this matter.

Feel free to offer alternate propositions, but please support any such propositions with scripture. I think there's a reason no one is offering support for alternate doctrine. I believe there is a reason this thread is empty of actual scriptural support for competing doctrine.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Again, we have all of those passage in the original post, speaking of "reconciling the world to Him" "everything in heaven and in earth" "all men" "all things" "every knee, every tongue" "all will come" etc. So we have to keep these in mind since all of scripture works together, it doesn't "cancel itself out" and is never "broken": so we have to keep in mind that we're being taught universal reconciliation as the end of the road. We have to keep that in mind when we read other things in the scripture.

Considering again the path to "destruction" into which many enter: Matthew 7:13. Now, a lot of people look at this verse and come to the wrong conclusion that many will not be reconciled to God. But not only do we have scripture clearly teaching that all will be reconciled, there is actually no cause for thinking that entering into "destruction" means "never to be reconciled" or "never to be rescued from the situation they've entered": if a person is attempting to equate "enter into destruction" with "never being reconciled" they have not only attempted to "break" the scripture by setting passage against passage, but they are doing such with absolutely no justification of attaching the idea of "never to be reconciled" to the idea of "entering into destruction"

We again see this throughout the scripture:

Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

So Israel entered into that gate of destruction. But in fact, all are initially lost, perished, dead and destroyed. Consider the one who may say to you "They are lost and dead and destroyed and perished" of other people. And yet, do they acknowledge they were once the same? Yet, what happened? How did they come back to life? How did they come out of destruction? They too were as "sheep gone astray" as the "perished sheep": no man finds help in these of himself, but note the verse "In Me is your help": and, help of what? Being saved; being resurrected ti life from death. Being reconciled.

Ezekeil 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick.

People may point you to a passage which shows people being driven away from God. But we see, God Himself goes out after them, seeking that which is perished; that which is cast out; that which is destroyed and broken down. So we know that being destroyed, or, lost, or, perished is not in-and-of itself a justifiable reason for a man to then say "And so then being lost, and destroyed, and dead; they will never be reconciled to Him" for not only is this idea not even in the scripture at all (but the very opposite clearly taught), but the man is attempting to make the scriptures teaching "all things reconciled to Him" into being wrong; and we know scripture cannot be wrong. But all scripture must be taken together in what is said.

A man may say "But there comes a time when it is too late to have faith, and too late to bow the knee; and most will never be reconciled" but if you press them for support, you will find they have none. There is nothing in the scripture teaching a time when it is "too late" to bow the knee, or, "too late" to be saved by grace. And moreover, the man is again attempting to break scripture in that his words "most will never be reconciled" are in plain contradiction to the passages in the original post.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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That's a lot of talking. Is it possible you could support any of that with actual scripture?
Yes, but why do you ask?
If we took all the Scripture out of the last post #18, it could be said you are doing a lot of "talking" as well. For instant "talk" claiming a "man" said something about it being "too late" without your "talking" about what God said on being late in Matt 7 & 25 an Luke 13. That sort of "talk" seems a bit convenient if not also shamefully disingenuous "talking" about Scripture.

I accept you believe Scripture supports your view and that you deny it could support mine. We are not so different in that regard and one of us has to be wrong on that point. I can cut paste or internet search with the best of them. But that does not interest me as much as challenging people to make their view sensible and fit with the rest of Scripture and Christian fundamentals/teachings.

Have my doubts, but if you are really unfamiliar with the Scriptural case against UR, repeat the request and I will respond but am not really interested in debating who has the better list.
 
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I suppose we could imagine all sorts of things, including that the understanding depicted of the verses given to support what we imagine being the only way to understand those verses - even while imagining that no contrary verses existed to what we are being asked to imagine that those selected verses mean/imply

So if we presume this is all part of what we are imagining, then sure the answer would be yes. But we can all imagine many things. Am not sure where that gets us on asking why UR is rejected by traditional Christian theology.

The question then is what is the "traditional Christian theology?" If you are a Catholic, do you accept the traditional evangelical view that you are worshiping false idols and the teachings of man over God? Or vise versa? If just one "traditional Christian theology" happens to be true, then automatically half of all "traditional" Christians are wrong. Is it really a case in Heaven that God will be high-fiving all the Catholics, and punishing the evangelicals - or "showing mercy on them even though they misunderstood?" And vice versa.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Feel free to offer alternative explanations of the passages cited; they're pretty clear as they are; and as of now they clearly support universal reconciliation.



Feel free to offer alternate propositions, but please support any such propositions with scripture. I think there's a reason no one is offering support for alternate doctrine. I believe there is a reason this thread is empty of actual scriptural support for competing doctrine.
The reason few are playing "whose is bigger" is that it is silly game and gets us no where. It is also gets very boring to those of us who have been here a while and very repetitive. That some would rather play this game than want to explain how these beliefs do not undermine other points of our faith is telling.

But you did ask - and I will use the same verses you gave.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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John 12:32
“Men” is not even in the original Greek, it is just “draw all unto me”. Elsewhere (6:37) the same writer refers to people “drawn” as those God sends Him. Which renders an alternate understanding of “drawing” all that are sent to Jesus. Also possible just another generic to every thing (as is ALL) being made right, which does not require everyone go to Heaven to be understood.
2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:20, Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:28

The entire world was corrupted by the Fall of mankind, by sin and the evil sin brought into being. By making everything right He is reconciling everything/the world/all things. Making everything right in terms of Justice and in there being no more evil does not require an understanding that everyone goes to Heaven to be understood.

Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10
Every knee bowing, as already mentioned in this thread, does equate to the person bowing is indeed surrendering his will. Just like the people confessing with their tongue were told “go away I don’t know you”. It was too late and they did not really mean they had surrendered anyway. The fact someone is bowing could mean several things and does not have to be understood as everyone is going to Heaven, just as not everyone confessing is going to Heaven.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Exactly – all the people given the Grace by God to be sent to Him are indeed drawn to Him making Heaven obtainable for some. Which goes to why the idea that God would eventually send everyone to Himself diminishes the Sacrifice He made.

1 Corinthians 15:22
All here, as in earlier verses is a subset of the entire human race – those sent, are drawn to Jesus and through Him made ALIVE

John 4:42, 1 John 4:14
He is also King of Kings to all men/creatures. Both “Savior of the World” and King are proper titles and true whether God sends us to Him or not. The titles do not become untrue based on even just one person not surrendering his will.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

No one doubts/question the sufficiency of God Grace to be able to save everyone. But in what way could we say belief or being drawn because we are sent to Him in this life is “special” if we claim this verse means everyone gets saved regardless if we were sent. The first statement goes to efficacy of the Grace He made possible by the Cross and the reason the Word is offered as a gift from God to everyone by believers. The Grace is indeed offered for the whole world (not just men). The second speaks to the eternal effect which is for believers, as a saving Grace which endures this life.

2Pe 3:9 , 1 Timothy 2:3
Saying that God does not want anyone to perish or that He wants us all to repent is not the same as saying everyone will surrender (which repentance assumes). IOW the statements in those verses is true even if NO ONE repents and everyone perishes. He demonstrates His Will & Desire by His Action, which is not thwarted by the knowledge not everyone wants to surrender their will to His.
I prefer to believe God wins more than evil does. It is not a formal teaching of any Church that I am aware of, but I find more support for that position in the Church than elsewhere where the numbers God gains are typically far smaller than what evil wins – which seems wrong/odd to me.

Hebrews 2:8
That everything is not made right yet is not denied. That making everything right requires all persons be saved is in dispute. By the way, whether one is in Hell or in Heaven in the end - everything has been made right/reconciled because there will be no more rebellion, no more sin and so no evil. And we can hold that view of God’s Love and Mercy without diminishing His Justice and Wrath.

1 Corinthians 15:23
The language here is ruler, King, Kingdom. Every man in order – which is properly Jesus first, those alive at His Return belonging to His Kingdom (temporal Church) and all the rest (the dead in Christ (spiritual Church) – together which are both the “bride”(Kingdom) being presented to the Father (God). Our place in the Kingdom is an inheritance we can gain through the Bridegroom. Then we go on to talking about everything else including enemies “under his feet” which hardly sounds like someone who has surrendered their will to the King or who wants to be a part of the Kingdom. With a closing statement that the last enemy is death.

And the BTW the same writer to the same Church in Chapter 6 mentions many people that will not inherit the Kingdom - am not sure how to then twist his later mention of a Kingdom to be all inclusive of everyone when he excludes some earlier. We should differentiate making everything right, from an inheritance of an eternal reward for submitting (surrendering) our will to His and the Peace being imposed on “his enemies” by putting
 
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DrBubbaLove

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The question then is what is the "traditional Christian theology?" If you are a Catholic, do you accept the traditional evangelical view that you are worshiping false idols and the teachings of man over God? Or vise versa? If just one "traditional Christian theology" happens to be true, then automatically half of all "traditional" Christians are wrong. Is it really a case in Heaven that God will be high-fiving all the Catholics, and punishing the evangelicals - or "showing mercy on them even though they misunderstood?" And vice versa.
is it really the case - Only for someone who writes for Jack Chic.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I wanted to see for myself which was true:

the traditional Heaven versus Hell theory,

the annihilation theory,

and the universal reconciliation theory.

I spent (off and on) two years slogging through the KJV, to see which of the three theories fit the data (the text) better. Annihilation has little to support it. The Heaven vs Hell theory is mostly supported by bad translation, and of course, "hell" is not in the original languages, but comes down to us from the ancient languages of pagan northern Europe. My "gotcha!" moment was finding that the Norse goddess of those not fit for Valhalla was Hel, and her realm was called Helheim. If memory serves, the 1611 KJV has two instances of "hel," so I'm not just blowing smoke...

Properly translated and understood, the UR theory fits the data best - Hell and Annihilation are not even close.
 
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John Hyperspace

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The reason few are playing "whose is bigger" is that it is silly game and gets us no where. It is also gets very boring to those of us who have been here a while and very repetitive. That some would rather play this game than want to explain how these beliefs do not undermine other points of our faith is telling.

I believe the only "telling" thing here is that you're still not doing anything but talking with your own words, completely absent of scripture. If you find discussion boring, it should seem easy enough not to reply in the first place, true?
 
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John Hyperspace

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John 12:32
“Men” is not even in the original Greek, it is just “draw all unto me”. Elsewhere (6:37) the same writer refers to people “drawn” as those God sends Him. Which renders an alternate understanding of “drawing” all that are sent to Jesus. Also possible just another generic to every thing (as is ALL) being made right, which does not require everyone go to Heaven to be understood.
2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:20, Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:28

Be sure to bear in mind that I am not saying the verses in the original post "prove" universal reconciliation: I have not claimed such, I have claimed they very much support the doctrine. This was posted in light of the idea that "universal reconciliation has no scriptural support": so when you say "does not require everyone [be saved]" you are missing the entire point of support. You see, you have already entered the discussion with a severe bias pervading your mind; you have become rigid and unflexible: all that is in opposition to your belief is required; but your perception is askew; and an askew perception serves no good.

Now, to the verse in question: the verse I cited clearly states "all" without qualification. You mention a verse in which Jesus states "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" which verse is true, of course. But note Jesus doesn't say "All shall come to Me" in this verse, does He? So in one verse Jesus says "I will draw all to Me" and in the other "All that the Father gives Me will come to me": thus your appeal to John 6:37 does not in any way change the meaning of "all" in John 12:32 to mean "not all, but all that are given"

So, in the end, John 12:32 is clear support that "all" will be drawn to Him. John 6:37 is clear support that "All that the Father gives will come to Me". The latter doesn't suddenly alter the meaning of "all" in the former verse. I would ask you, what does the word "all" mean in "All that the Father gives"? Does the word "all" in that passages "require" the understanding of "everyone"? Why does "all" mean "all" at John 6:37, but not at John 12:32?

The entire world was corrupted by the Fall of mankind, by sin and the evil sin brought into being. By making everything right He is reconciling everything/the world/all things. Making everything right in terms of Justice and in there being no more evil does not require an understanding that everyone goes to Heaven to be understood.

How do you understand the words "not imputing their trespasses to them" ("them" being "the world" which is "reconciled by His blood")? The verse states this is the "word of reconciliation": what does it mean for the world to have "no imputation of transgression"? Does a person go to heaven if their "transgressions are not imputed to them"? What keeps a person from going to heaven?

Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10
Every knee bowing, as already mentioned in this thread, does equate to the person bowing is indeed surrendering his will. Just like the people confessing with their tongue were told “go away I don’t know you”. It was too late and they did not really mean they had surrendered anyway. The fact someone is bowing could mean several things and does not have to be understood as everyone is going to Heaven, just as not everyone confessing is going to Heaven.

Could you provide any amount of support for your claims here: "it was too late" "not everyone confessing is going to heaven"? You seem here to be basing your answers completely on unsupported claims. Like, you are trying to use naked belief in an unstated doctrine for "imaginary support" of your words. The verses clearly state every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, all things being subdued to Him; and that no man can confess Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit, true?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Exactly – all the people given the Grace by God to be sent to Him are indeed drawn to Him making Heaven obtainable for some. Which goes to why the idea that God would eventually send everyone to Himself diminishes the Sacrifice He made.

Okay. Now if you could explain how "every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" can be done with the Holy Spirit working in "every tongue" that makes such confession. In other words, why are you claiming (against scripture) that those confessing Christ are, not saved; since confession is made "unto salvation" by the Holy Spirit? Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Note: If you're wanting to reply "It's too late for them to be saved" please provide scriptural support, and not, empty words based on imaginary belief in an unstated doctrine.

1 Corinthians 15:22
All here, as in earlier verses is a subset of the entire human race – those sent, are drawn to Jesus and through Him made ALIVE

What does "all" mean in the phrase "In Adam all die"? Just "some"? Or "all"? When does "all" actually mean what the word "all" means, as opposed to "all" meaning "not all"? Why would God use the word "all" to mean "not all"? Is God the author of confusion? Or someone else?

John 4:42, 1 John 4:14
He is also King of Kings to all men/creatures. Both “Savior of the World” and King are proper titles and true whether God sends us to Him or not. The titles do not become untrue based on even just one person not surrendering his will.

The title "Saviour of all" becomes untrue is "all" are not saved. This is how language works. If someone said "Here is the saviour of all the city" would you immediately understand that all the city was saved by the man? Or would you ask "How much of the city was not saved by him?"

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

No one doubts/question the sufficiency of God Grace to be able to save everyone.

I would grant you a point if the verse read "Able to be the Saviour of all": but it doesn't, does it?

2Pe 3:9 , 1 Timothy 2:3
Saying that God does not want anyone to perish or that He wants us all to repent is not the same as saying everyone will surrender (which repentance assumes).

It is when other passages cited make clear that "What God wills, happens"

And the BTW the same writer to the same Church in Chapter 6 mentions many people that will not inherit the Kingdom - am not sure how to then twist his later mention of a Kingdom to be all inclusive of everyone when he excludes some earlier. We should differentiate making everything right, from an inheritance of an eternal reward for submitting (surrendering) our will to His and the Peace being imposed on “his enemies” by putting

Show me a passage supporting "not everyone will inherit the kingdom". Note, citing "no man who hates will inherit the kingdom" isn't good enough since this says nothing of whether or not people who hate (any cannot inherit the kingdom in their hate) will stop hating at some point in the future. Bear in mind, we've got a lot of future to come.

Also, if universal reconciliation is not true (even though it has clear support); what is the true doctrine, and, what is your support for it which you find greater than the support for universal reconciliation?
 
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Der Alte

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Universal reconciliation. No greater doctrine of love and forgiveness exists. I ask that, for a moment, let's see if the scripture supports the doctrine of universal reconciliation. I will cite verses with brief comments. Imagine for a moment that these passages are all that exist in the scripture. If these passages were the only verses in scripture, would you not walk away thinking, "It's true; universal reconciliation is clearly true"?
Now, bear in mind, I'm not saying "Then it is true" (since these are not the only passages in scripture); but what I am saying is that, these passages are very clear support of the doctrine. So, no one can say "There is no scriptural support of the doctrine of universal reconciliation" but, they may try to refute it, contradict it, and/or attempt to support another doctrine that contradicts what these passages teach. But can it be done with substance? Do the arguments against really hold up to rigorous evaluation? Or can we merely offer up a different doctrine which leaves us with two doctrines with equal support, leaving us to determine which of the two is true? That question is what is to be evaluated in this thread. So let's get busy evaluating. Now, here is clear support of universal reconciliation:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will
draw all men unto me.
This word "draw" meaning "to drag" (even against the desire of the one being dragged); used elsewhere of "drawing" a net of fishes, and "drawing" men before councils: John 6:44, John 21:6, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, James 2:6: so everyone will be "dragged" to Christ; come willingly, or, be dragged to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
God is reconciling everything to Himself. Not just "believers" in the here and now, but
the world entire. This word of reconciliation has been comitted to us who believe in the here and now.
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby
he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
He is able to subdue all things; but is He willing, and will He perform that which He is able to perform?
1 Corinthians 15:28 And
when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
He will perform it, and subdue all things to Him.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord,
every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee; not some knees and some few tongues: every knee: every tongue will confess "Jesus is Lord":
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Every confessing tongue will be doing so by the Holy Spirit; thus the Holy Spirit will be working in every tongue, of, every man, and every knee will bow.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive.
All die without choice in Adam; all will likewise be made alive in Christ. There is no putting off of either. It will happen to all to die in Adam; it will happen to all to live in Christ. No exceptions.
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ,
the Saviour of the world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be
the Saviour of the world.
Not the "would-be" Saviour of the world; not the "almost" Saviour of the world; not the "Saviour only of them that now believe": but Saviour of the world. No one can be the Saviour of something without actually saving that something.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is
the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Not the "would-be" Saviour of all men; not the "almost" Saviour of all men. The Saviour of all men: especially them that believe; thus not only the Saviour of them that believe: but of all men, specially them that now believe.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who
will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Not willing that any perish but all come; willing that all be saved and come. Will the will of God be defeated?
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and
I will do all my pleasure:
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and
he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but
it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
The will of God will not, and cannot, be defeated. What He wills is what is done; in earth as it is in heaven. Do you pray His will be done? If so, you must pray for universal reconciliation since that is His will.
Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But
now we see not yet all things put under him.
All things are under Him; but not yet do we see it. Yet, we will see it: every man in his own order and time according to the will and purpose of God and God alone.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But
every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
My first response is, "Oh no not another UR thread with the same proof texts and the same arguments which have been presented here countless times in the decade+ I have been here.”
.....What we have here is a seeming thought out systematic theology listing many verses in support of the stated premise. We can sit down with our Bibles and check verse by verse every point and every verse and it sounds very convincing.
But there is a problem with that approach. Here are the verse citations again.
John 12:32
John 6:44
John 21:6
John 21:11
Acts 16:19
Acts 21:30
James 2:6
2 Corinthians 5:19
Colossians 1:20
Philippians 3:21
1 Corinthians 15:28
Romans 14:11
Philippians 2:10-11
1 Corinthians 12:3
1 Corinthians 15:22
John 4:42
1 John 4:14
1 Timothy 4:10
2 Peter 3:9
1 Timothy 2:3-4
Isaiah 46:10
Daniel 4:35
Isaiah 55:11
Hebrews 2:8
1 Corinthians 15:23
Ecclesiastes 3:1
The problem is there is no evidence that the formerly pagan Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica etc. had a complete “Bible” to form this same “theology.” When Paul wrote e.g. to Corinth did the church in Galatia, etc. have that same letter and vice versa? There is no record of it. There is also no record that the formerly pagan Christians in all the gentile lands and places, listed in the NT, had copies of Isaiah, Daniel, Ecclesiastes, listed above, or any other OT book to complete the theology stated in the above post. But we do have a record from the early church.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Extant Works and Fragments
Part I. Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture. On Proverbs.
Proverbs 11:30 But the souls of the unrighteous meet an untimely expulsion from the presence of God, by whom they shall be left to remain in the flame of torment.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chap LII
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” (Ezekiel 37:7 Ezekiel 37:8 Isaiah 45:24) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isaiah 66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
Justin The First Apology Chap. VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XXVII
Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Part First Apologetic Chap. XLVIII
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
Commodianus [a.d. 240] Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline. Against the Gods of the Heathens.
Learn God, O foolish man, who wishes thee to be immortal, that thou mayest give Him eternal thanks in thy struggle. His own law teaches thee; but since thou seekest to wander, thou disbelievest all things, and thence thou shalt go into hell. By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe
And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.
2 and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them

Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
24. What will then be the glory of faith? what the punishment of faithlessness? When the day of judgment shall come, what joy of believers, what sorrow of unbelievers; that they should have been unwilling to believe here, and now that they should be unable to return that they might believe! An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering. . . We wearied ourselves in the way of wickedness and destruction; we have gone through deserts where there lay no way; but we have not known the way of the Lord. What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.

Minucius Felix (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death.They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them"
Lactantius [A.D. 307] Divine Institutes 7:21
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire".
Cyril of Jerusalem [A.D. 350]Catechetical Lectures 18:19
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past"
 
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John Hyperspace

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I wanted to see for myself which was true:

the traditional Heaven versus Hell theory,

the annihilation theory,

and the universal reconciliation theory.

I spent (off and on) two years slogging through the KJV, to see which of the three theories fit the data (the text) better. Annihilation has little to support it. The Heaven vs Hell theory is mostly supported by bad translation, and of course, "hell" is not in the original languages, but comes down to us from the ancient languages of pagan northern Europe. My "gotcha!" moment was finding that the Norse goddess of those not fit for Valhalla was Hel, and her realm was called Helheim. If memory serves, the 1611 KJV has two instances of "hel," so I'm not just blowing smoke...

Properly translated and understood, the UR theory fits the data best - Hell and Annihilation are not even close.

As I'm being taught by scripture, "hell" (the doctrine, not, the translated word) is not even remotely with support. I did once believe it, but constant study has tossed it into the garbage bin.

Annihilation and Universal Reconciliation are the only two that have actual support. But the thing about annihilation is, it has to ignore and contradict the verses clearly supporting reconciliation. But reconciliation doesn't ignore destruction; it proposes a salvation out of destruction.

What I mean is, we have clear support of both universal reconciliation, and we have support of destruction/death. But they must work together, not at odds with one another. Leaving a scenario where one of the following must be the case:

1. All is reconciled, and then destruction of man follows: this is destruction out of reconciliation
2. Destruction precedes reconciliation; first comes destruction, then reconciliation: this is reconciliation out of destruction.

Now we also have ample support that 2 is the case, as in cited verses such as:

Ho 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

So we see that to be "destroyed" or to enter into "destruction" doesn't mean "no reconciliation" but indeed, scripture shows that reconciliation follows from destruction; even "destruction" effecuating "reconciliation"

La 2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.

Again, destruction and desolation: but not a "full end"

De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Again, God can "kill" and "make alive"; He can "destroy" and then "rebuild"

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again this word "lost" is the same as the word translated "perished/destroyed/ruined": and we see that Jesus is specifically going to them that have been "perished" in order to bring about reconciliation to God.

Annihilation wants to teach destruction as a "full end" with no chance of reconciliation following, but this is not supported at all by scripture, and even the exact opposite is taught: that reconciliation can and does follow destruction:

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 5:10 Go ye up upon her walls, and destroy; but make not a full end: take away her battlements; for they are not the LORD’S.
Jer 5:18 Nevertheless in those days, saith the LORD, I will not make a full end with you.

So in the end: "hell" is right out, no support at all. "Annihilation" only has support in "destruction" but has no support at all in a "full end destruction" with no reconciliation possible afterward (while also having to ignore clear support of universal reconciliation) and is even contrary to scripture: so in the end, only universal reconciliation has both clear support from all aspects of scripture, and is in complete harmony with all other aspects of scripture.

Couple this with the fact it is clearly the most loving and mercifully forgiving of all three, a clear expression of the love and mercy of God (even allowing the justice of God in the destruction prior to reconciliation) and it seems to me the clear winner.
 
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John Hyperspace

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The problem is there is no evidence that the formerly pagan Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica etc. had a complete “Bible” to form this same “theology.” When Paul wrote e.g. to Corinth did the church in Galatia, etc. have that same letter and vice versa? There is no record of it. There is also no record that the formerly pagan Christians in all the gentile lands and places, listed in the NT, had copies of Isaiah, Daniel, Ecclesiastes, listed above, or any other OT book to complete the theology stated in the above post. But we do have a record from the early church.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Extant Works and Fragments
Part I. Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture. On Proverbs.
Proverbs 11:30 But the souls of the unrighteous meet an untimely expulsion from the presence of God, by whom they shall be left to remain in the flame of torment.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chap LII
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” (Ezekiel_37:7, Ezekiel_37:8; Isaiah_45:24) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isaiah_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
Justin The First Apology Chap. VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XXVII
Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Part First Apologetic Chap. XLVIII
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
Commodianus [a.d. 240] Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline. Against the Gods of the Heathens.
Learn God, O foolish man, who wishes thee to be immortal, that thou mayest give Him eternal thanks in thy struggle. His own law teaches thee; but since thou seekest to wander, thou disbelievest all things, and thence thou shalt go into hell. By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe
And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.
2 and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them

Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
24. What will then be the glory of faith? what the punishment of faithlessness? When the day of judgment shall come, what joy of believers, what sorrow of unbelievers; that they should have been unwilling to believe here, and now that they should be unable to return that they might believe! An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering. . . We wearied ourselves in the way of wickedness and destruction; we have gone through deserts where there lay no way; but we have not known the way of the Lord. What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.

Minucius Felix (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death.They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them"
Lactantius [A.D. 307] Divine Institutes 7:21
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire".
Cyril of Jerusalem [A.D. 350]Catechetical Lectures 18:19
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past"

That is certainly a long list of men talking about things with virtually no support from scripture at all.
 
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Lazarus Short

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As I'm being taught by scripture, "hell" (the doctrine, not, the translated word) is not even remotely with support. I did once believe it, but constant study has tossed it into the garbage bin.

Annihilation and Universal Reconciliation are the only two that have actual support. But the thing about annihilation is, it has to ignore and contradict the verses clearly supporting reconciliation. But reconciliation doesn't ignore destruction; it proposes a salvation out of destruction.

What I mean is, we have clear support of both universal reconciliation, and we have support of destruction/death. But they must work together, not at odds with one another. Leaving a scenario where one of the following must be the case:

1. All is reconciled, and then destruction of man follows: this is destruction out of reconciliation
2. Destruction precedes reconciliation; first comes destruction, then reconciliation: this is reconciliation out of destruction.

Now we also have ample support that 2 is the case, as in cited verses such as:

Ho 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

So we see that to be "destroyed" or to enter into "destruction" doesn't mean "no reconciliation" but indeed, scripture shows that reconciliation follows from destruction; even "destruction" effecuating "reconciliation"

La 2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.

Again, destruction and desolation: but not a "full end"

De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Again, God can "kill" and "make alive"; He can "destroy" and then "rebuild"

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again this word "lost" is the same as the word translated "perished/destroyed/ruined": and we see that Jesus is specifically going to them that have been "perished" in order to bring about reconciliation to God.

Annihilation wants to teach destruction as a "full end" with no chance of reconciliation following, but this is not supported at all by scripture, and even the exact opposite is taught: that reconciliation can and does follow destruction:

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 5:10 Go ye up upon her walls, and destroy; but make not a full end: take away her battlements; for they are not the LORD’S.
Jer 5:18 Nevertheless in those days, saith the LORD, I will not make a full end with you.

So in the end: "hell" is right out, no support at all. "Annihilation" only has support in "destruction" but has no support at all in a "full end destruction" with no reconciliation possible afterward (while also having to ignore clear support of universal reconciliation) and is even contrary to scripture: so in the end, only universal reconciliation has both clear support from all aspects of scripture, and is in complete harmony with all other aspects of scripture.

Couple this with the fact it is clearly the most loving and mercifully forgiving of all three, a clear expression of the love and mercy of God (even allowing the justice of God in the destruction prior to reconciliation) and it seems to me the clear winner.

One of the things I discovered in my two-year slog through the KJV, besides the non-existance of Hell, was that all the punishments, cursings and destructions of the Bible are carried out in the real, here-and-now world. That being said, Jesus' statement that He makes all things new says a LOT.
 
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