I need to know the truth...is Rom 9:21 true ?

CodyFaith said:

I think you're failing to grasp the concept of free will.

If there's a choice, no matter what that choice may be, that is in your control and you could go one way or the other, it's up to you - that's free will.

Even if it's only one choice, it still means humans have free will.

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No. Free will is the ability to decide and take a moral action without coercion or consequence by any other moral agent. If that choice is limited by coercion or consequence by any other moral agent, it is not "free will." This was conceived and defined three hundred and fifty years before Christ.

The confusion in the mind of Christians is the fault of Augustine and Aquinas, who reached back to ancient Greek philosophy and dredged up a concept to wedge into Christian theology to counter accusations of Christianity being "deterministic."

However, they created a different meaning for "free will"--limiting it to something it never was defined. What the ancient Greeks considered "free will" is not what Christians speak of.

Now, if Christians want to use the Augustine/Aquinas definition among ourselves, okay.

But when venturing out among secular philosophers, Christians should realize we're using a "private definition."

~Cassia~ said:

Just started to read that and the first thing that struck me was that it seems like Christians are vessels of compassion used to contain Him and Jews are vessels of mercy .... Romans 9:15, Romans 9:23-24 or vis ves or maybe not .. needs further study obviously

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I think you're correctly making the point that Paul's argument was not that God can condemn anyone He wants to condemn, but that (in opposition to Jewish though) God can save whoever He wants to save.

expos4ever said:

I am convinced that this text was never intended (by Paul) to be taken as any kind of general principle of "predestination".

I think a careful reading of all of Romans, and of Romans 9 through 11 in particular, reveals that Paul is simply arguing that God hardened the nation of Israel for a particular redemptive purpose that reached its fulfillment at the Cross.

In short, I believe this statement by Paul is an explanation of a very particular historical "hardening" that is not at play today in any sense.

Having said that, and even if you buy what I am saying, you may still "object" to the notion that God hardened anybody at any time in history.

Well, I sympathize but believe I can offer a plausible explanation based on the ideas of theologian NT Wright.

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Interesting. I am going to look at this further because it makes sense that Paul would say that for the reason you gave. Good find.

I'll let you know what I find.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

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If one was pre-disposed to do evil, like Pharoah, would it be wrong for God to use that person for his purposes...

I take that scripture as meaning God endured with patience people who were pre-disposed to be or do evil and he put up with, but possibly also used some of them, but put up with them being around and with or around his people, with much endurance and patience, looking forward to the day, and being enduring and patient with that, looking forward to the day, when they would be no more...

God Bless!

God used wicked nations to bring judgement upon Israel, YET, He still finds those nations guilty. He is simply allowed them to do what they already wanted to do.

jimmyjimmy said:

God used wicked nations to bring judgement upon Israel, YET, He still finds those nations guilty. He is simply allowed them to do what they already wanted to do.

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Yes, if there going to do it anyway, why is God wrong in using or taking advantage of that, if he can't, or perhaps more appropriately, won't, change it/that...

RDKirk said:

No, Adam and Eve did not exercise "free will."

Adam and Eve exercised the choice of who their master would be (the only choice any of us has, and that choice is only possible by the grace of God)...and a single choice of who will be our master is not "free will."

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I didn't say that they chose who would be their master.

I said that they chose to disobey God's commands. The free-will proof was that they were able to disobey God and they did. Otherwise you are saying that God chose them to sin.

If that is true that God chose for them to sin. I do not believe for a hot second that God chose for mankind to sin. Nope. I'll never believe that because it is not proven in the Bible.

Neogaia777 said:

Yes, if there going to do it anyway, why is God wrong in using or taking advantage of that, if he can't, or perhaps more appropriately, won't, change it/that...

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Exactly. He is not making them puppets, yet He is weaving and working everything for our good and His glory, as He even uses evil and wickedness to accomplish His goals.

It's actually something I give Him praise for, rather than being repulsed by it.

jimmyjimmy said:

Exactly. He is not making them puppets, yet He is weaving and working everything for our good and His glory, as He even uses evil and wickedness to accomplish His goals.

It's actually something I give Him praise for, rather than being repulsed by it.

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Me too...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Me too...

God Bless!

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I just thought of the death of Christ as a perfect example.

Many individuals and certain groups were directly responsible for crucifying Christ, yet, that was God's plan from before the foundation of the world. It needed to happen. He needed to die at the hands of sinful men, but those men were not coerced into killing Him.

It is God's command that human will NOT be interfered with. Interference by all spiritual beings in the universe is strictly forbidden. We MUST choose for good or for evil.
God is NOT wrathful. God is the absolute of love and logic and thus anger or wrath is not possible. However, people may perceive God as wrathful because they do not understand Him or His actions or inaction. Indeed, throughout time, bad things sometimes happen to "good" people. Sometimes, the fact that God has not interfered in the normal course of events, some mistakenly infer spiritual favor or condemnation. God does not cause anyone to sin or to embrace evil.

jimmyjimmy said:

I just thought of the death of Christ as a perfect example.

Many individuals and certain groups were directly responsible for crucifying Christ, yet, that was God's plan from before the foundation of the world. It needed to happen. He needed to die at the hands of sinful men, but those men were not coerced.

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But, many men in the future would be...

God Bless!

RDKirk said:

No, I didn't ask whether the question was "valid," I asked what makes it important to anyone who is a believer.

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It's not really important and he shouldn't have any freaking questions. I hate that, don't you? People think about stuff and read things and have questions! Sometimes they ask other people and I don't get why. Shun people like that man. Shouldn't even entertain them. Who knows what they might think of next or ask. It's ridiculous.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

It's not really important and he shouldn't have any freaking questions. I hate that, don't you? People think about stuff and read things and have questions! Sometimes they ask other people and I don't get why. Shun people like that man. Shouldn't even entertain them. Who knows what they might think of next or ask. It's ridiculous.

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I looked back up at the top of the form to make sure this was an area for Christians only.

If we are Christians, our foremost goal should be to obey Christ. So then, our questions would be to enhance our obedience.

When my children were young, I learned early to discern between their "why" that was a desire to understand how to grow in to adult authority and their "why" that was merely a challenge to adult authority.

RDKirk said:

I looked back up at the top of the form to make sure this was an area for Christians only.

If we are Christians, our foremost goal should be to obey Christ. So then, our questions would be to enhance our obedience.

When my children were young, I learned early to discern between their "why" that was a desire to understand how to grow in to adult authority and their "why" that was merely a challenge to adult authority.

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The guy may be some kind of pagan or atheist who's sole purpose is to slip in among the flock and deceive or challenge. I think he's trying to get us riled up in anger at him for his unenlightened questions, so that we may strike at him and hurt are own faith. I'm glad that we spotted him for what he was and aren't going to take it seriously. Take that Satan. *High Five*

RDKirk said:

I looked back up at the top of the form to make sure this was an area for Christians only.

If we are Christians, our foremost goal should be to obey Christ. So then, our questions would be to enhance our obedience.

When my children were young, I learned early to discern between their "why" that was a desire to understand how to grow in to adult authority and their "why" that was merely a challenge to adult authority.

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That's usually how it starts, but not usually how it ends though...

Once they become a young adult, like my daughter for example, she was constantly challenging our authority growing up, but, now that she's a young adult, has gone through her rebellious stage, realizes now that we were always looking out for her best interests, in the end and has to take care of herself now...

Only now is she now realizing this and showing some genuine love and respect for us now, that wasn't there before, or went away, as she became a teenager and more and more rebellious, till she found out for herself, that we were always looking out for her best interests ultimately, in the end... And she's beginning to understand that more and more now... Let's just see what happens when she has kids...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

That's usually how it starts, but not usually how it ends though...

Once they become a young adult, like my daughter for example, she was constantly challenging our authority growing up, but, now that she's a young adult, has gone through her rebellious stage, realizes now that we were always looking out for her best interests, in the end and has to take care of herself now...

Only now is she now realizing this and showing some genuine love and respect for us now, that wasn't there before, or went away, as she became a teenager and more and more rebellious, till she found out for herself, that we were always looking out for her best interests ultimately, in the end... And she's beginning to understand that more and more now... Let's just see what happens when she has kids...?

God Bless!

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Oh, and we had many verbal arguments while she was growing up, she kinda hated me, cause when she'd argue, I'd argue with her right back, and usually till I won, man how she hated that, but, I could tell, and especially now more, that she came to respect it/that...

I could tell that back then, she was always a little jealous and envious of me, every time I would, and really, (and I can't speak for her mother) But, really, she wanted to be "like me"...

I can see more and more of me in her now, and how I affected her, and I'm very proud of and very pleased with the way she's turning out and the path she's on now in life and the person she is now...

Finally seeing some fruit of my labor...

God Bless!

ToBeLoved said:

Interesting. I am going to look at this further because it makes sense that Paul would say that for the reason you gave. Good find.

I'll let you know what I find.

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Thanks for being open to a new idea. This idea, though, is not my own, and was shamelessly lifted from theologian NT Wright. It takes some investment of time to absorb the argument, but I think the case is extremely strong.

RDKirk said:

I think you're correctly making the point that Paul's argument was not that God can condemn anyone He wants to condemn, but that (in opposition to Jewish though) God can save whoever He wants to save.

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Romans 9:15 is definately speaking to the Israeli people under Moses
“I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have
compassion.”
Romans 11:5 is definately speaking also of the Israelis
In the same way then at the present time also there has come into being a remnant according to the selection of grace.


Mercy as it relates to God's selection shows that when He brings us forth as selected vessels it's in a very pitiful state. We're foreordained in a sense, because of Adam, to be in a pitiful state. Without that pitiful state how could God show His mercy? He showed it in choosing the descendents of Abraham as His chosen people. Then in His grace He has chosen a remnant. The verses following Romans 11:5 go on to explain how the gentile believers, thru grace, have been grafted in.

Grace is something that's wrought into our beings but we are also objects of His mercy. Mercy gave us the opportunity for repentance. In that we recieved grace.

So our selection to be vessels in the House of God is thru both mercy and grace.

I'm kinda getting lost on what thread is on what topic, but it appears like those who are chamber pots are those who are still saved in mercy but not so up on the grace factor, not as wrought with gold and silver maybe still being basic jars of clay, jmo.
To take that analogy further, the inner man hasn't broken out of the outer man.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

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Does the sovereign God, who created all things, not have the right to with His creation as He chooses? Or are you choosing to deny God His autonomous sovereign free will (that man's will is greater than God's)?


Man does not have autonomous free will. That does not mean that man has no level of choice. But man's choice is limited to his nature, his nature by default, being a rebel sinner to God. A person, apart from the grace of God and a work of regeneration done by God, has absolutely no ability to make a good moral decision and is spiritually dead against God. A spiritually dead person has no ability to choose God (e.g. Lazarus rising from the tomb).