I need to know the truth...is Rom 9:21 true ?

DoubtfulSalvation said:

I guess people who will never lay hands on a concordance will just have to guess. How lovely.

Click to expand...

Yes it's always best to keep oneself unapproved in scripture NOT

RDKirk said:

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. -- Ephesians 2

Click to expand...

why did He create the bad ones?

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

Its not a mistake, but we should not believe God activally is hardening peoples heart. Pharao wasnt moms most precious child before the wrath came upon egypt. And all God has to do is to allow him to ahrden his heart and not convict him as he normally do, but not after a long process of levels after levels of warnings and convictions. And this verse is about the jewish people who even had more falling away and God convicting them and giving them repentance back, again and again. The only way a people would have their hearts hardened is by them moving away from god consciously to the point of no return, so to speak, and God letting them have their will and he stops convicting them. However, Gods mercy may STILL see an oportunity to even use that terrible situation for good, and it's not like the same gosple that is offerend to the gentiles is nto also offered to the same jews he talks about here, in fact they got it first.

victorinus said:

why did He create the bad ones?

Click to expand...

Why does it matter to you?

Would you then decide according to your own moral values that God is not an acceptable God for your tastes?

RDKirk said:

Why does it matter to you?

Click to expand...

it's a valid question -
why did He create the bad ones?

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

Understanding this requires one to know the difference between: 1. (Most of the People) making God what You want Him to be, and 2. (The Few) humbling yourself to the Truth about how He Really is.

RDKirk said:

No, Adam and Eve did not exercise "free will."

Adam and Eve exercised the choice of who their master would be (the only choice any of us has, and that choice is only possible by the grace of God)...and a single choice of who will be our master is not "free will."

Click to expand...

I think you're failing to grasp the concept of free will.

If there's a choice, no matter what that choice may be, that is in your control and you could go one way or the other, it's up to you - that's free will.

Even if it's only one choice, it still means humans have free will.

victorinus said:

why did He create the bad ones?

Click to expand...

romans 9:22 answers your question.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

A big mistake often made with Romans 9 is the failure to keep reading through Romans 10 and 11. I recommend reading those, especially Romans 11. Pay attention especially to verse 32. Doing that, now begin from the beginning of the epistle and keep reading, then place Romans 9, 10, and 11 within the context of the whole argument the Apostle is making throughout the epistle.

-CryptoLutheran

THE W said:

romans 9:22 answers your question.

Click to expand...

not

victorinus said:

not

Click to expand...

I can't help it if you don't like the answer, but that is the answer.

ViaCrucis said:

A big mistake often made with Romans 9 is the failure to keep reading through Romans 10 and 11. I recommend reading those, especially Romans 11. Pay attention especially to verse 32. Doing that, now begin from the beginning of the epistle and keep reading, then place Romans 9, 10, and 11 within the context of the whole argument the Apostle is making throughout the epistle.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Just started to read that and the first thing that struck me was that it seems like Christians are vessels of compassion used to contain Him and Jews are vessels of mercy .... Romans 9:15, Romans 9:23-24 or vis ves or maybe not .. needs further study obviously

I think romans 9 is one of my most favorite chapters in the bible. So powerful. I think it shows gods patience and his strength. We must not nitpick bible verses and take them out of context. I know early in my bible learning journey I would hear a verse and would just not know what to think about God or thought i had ran into a contradiction. But then I learned you need to know who the verse is addressed to, how it relates to us now and its meaning. Once you get those three you will see that there are no biblical contradictions. If there was even one biblical contradiction christianity would not have made it this far.

To address your OP no god does not use us as pawns. He can not be a loving god or even god at all if he did such things. The chapter I think shows Gods love not any evil or wrong doing. His patience for israel to come back to him. As far as him choosing one person for a higher ranking than another before they did anything good or bad is Gods right. We all can't be Jesus Christ. Or have his power and authority in heaven. God had to make the tough choices but all his choices worked out and were correct. The point of chapter nine isn't that we dont have free will but to show Gods power and mercy for all of us. That God doesn't owe us anything. None of us deserve life or eternal life yet we have it. Its just a humbling chapter for all of us to learn from.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,....

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

I am convinced that this text was never intended (by Paul) to be taken as any kind of general principle of "predestination".

I think a careful reading of all of Romans, and of Romans 9 through 11 in particular, reveals that Paul is simply arguing that God hardened the nation of Israel for a particular redemptive purpose that reached its fulfillment at the Cross.

In short, I believe this statement by Paul is an explanation of a very particular historical "hardening" that is not at play today in any sense.

Having said that, and even if you buy what I am saying, you may still "object" to the notion that God hardened anybody at any time in history.

Well, I sympathize but believe I can offer a plausible explanation based on the ideas of theologian NT Wright.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

pharaohs heart --- pharaoh harden it first.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

I see "free will" contradicting scripture. Sure, we freely "choose" (so to speak) Christ Jesus...but only after God has mercy on us and gives us the ability.

I haven't read through all the pages yet...so maybe this has been discussed.

Far Side Of the Moon said:

Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,



Or is this a misunderstanding? ..I see so many scriptures that contradict free will, like God hardening pharaohs heart, God having mercy on whomever he wills...

Is this a mistake, a misunderstanding? I don't want to believe God uses people as pawns

Click to expand...

Paul says "what if" doesn't he? and that is exactly what is meant there. Predestination is a difficult subject for some. I take it to mean that God gave man freewill but knew how he would or would not exercise it. That still could boil down to God made some who would not accept Christ though. (God does put man in another time and world than His own and honors those "laws" of man's time and his boundaries...why could He not create man and have them "run a race" for eternal life and intervene only when asked and how He sees most suitable for us? Perhaps God created man and they themselves introduced sin into their hearts, minds and bodies with Satan's assistance most assuredly and from there they run a race and some are not fit to run...never practiced, never tried or started down the track but departed like the hare...they lose the race for eternity. God Himself urged Cain to overcome his sin, but he did not make that attempt.

All you need do is live according to the Bible's principles...live in Godly love toward your neighbor and love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Somethings will remain a mystery to us and we live with that remembering these passages (and NEVER give up):
Isaiah 55:8-9:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts

ToBeLoved said:

If you or anyone uses Biblehub.com they do have the tools online and free. Many tools such as parallel Bible verses and Interlinear Greek and other tools.

I know that there are several other sources including I believe Blue letter Bible site. I use Biblehub so that is what I am more familiar with, but there are others too.

Click to expand...

I'll be sure to tell my missionary friends in remote parts of china or India. The locals probably use it all the time.

~Cassia~ said:

Yes it's always best to keep oneself unapproved in scripture NOT

Click to expand...

Hey good work. You actually understood my comment, NOT. See, I can do it too. I rate your snarky comment a poor 4/10. Try again!

victorinus said:

it's a valid question -
why did He create the bad ones?

Click to expand...

No, I didn't ask whether the question was "valid," I asked what makes it important to anyone who is a believer.