Is the Messiah a person or a nation according to the Bible

Shibolet · Jan 8, 2017

BobRyan said:
Thus proving the bible records 100's of witnesses to the resurrected Christ.[/quoe]

I did not ask for an eyewitness to the resurrectED "Christ;" I asked for an eyewitness of Jesus at the act of resurrection. You already gave me the reply that's impossible. Why return to the same issue over and over again?

Is that you agreeing to the 100's of eyewitnesses of the resurrectED Christ but then arguing that none of them saw Him "BEING resurrected" they only saw the result - the resurrected Christ?

Click to expand...

Read Acts 1:1-3. Luke said that Jesus appeared for 40 days after his passion aka sufferings. To appear after one's passion or suffering is no evidence even that he died, let alone that he resurrected. Use Logic!

OR are you arguing that Christ can not be resurrected - if they only see the resurected Christ - they have to actually watch him come out of the tomb or else he is still dead?

Click to expand...

Jesus could not resurrect because he was a Jew and, according to his gospel which was the Tanach, once dead, no one can ever return from the grave. Read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

I have also shown many eyewitnesses to the public execution and death of Christ. Thursday at 8:28 AM #10

Click to expand...

Public execution yes, but sure death, there was no eyewitnesses. When Joseph of Arimathea requested from Pilate to remove Jesus from the cross to bury him, Pilate could not believe he had died so soon; less than 3 hours when, according to Josephus, Jews would remain on the cross, sometimes for up to 4 days. From his book "Wars of the Jews." (Gospel of Mark.)

If it is your argument that the resurrected Christ - was merely seen and witnessed but that coming out of the grave was not also witnessed by the disciples - only that they witnessed the placing in the tomb of the dead body and witnessed an empty tomb 3 days later with the stone rolled away and all roman guards gone - that is fine.

Click to expand...

The tomb was emptied about 2 hours later when Joseph laid Jesus' body to rest and went for Nicodemus to remove Jesus elsewhere they could mend Jesus' wounds as Nicodemus had come with about 100 pounds of medication.
(John 19)

Shibolet · Jan 8, 2017

BobRyan said:
anointed as a nation is not the same as Messiah as a nation. David calls the wicked King Saul - the "anointed" of the Lord.

Okay, let me clear that up for you. I have already given you Habakkuk 3:1 where we have the Anointed One of the Lord as a nation. Let me give you two more: First, read Ezekiel 16:8,9. Verse 8 to identify whom the text is talking about. Verse 9, "I bathed you in water and washed the blood off you and anointed you with oil." And for the second, read Psalm 28:8,9."The Lord is THEIR strength; He is a stronghold for the deliverance of His anointed. Deliver and bless Your very own People; tend THEM and sustain THEM forever. Good enough? Can I read from you that indeed the truth is in the collective concept of Messiah? Bzrat HaShem!

Shibolet · Jan 8, 2017

gadar perets said:
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. Mark 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion he gave the body to Joseph.

Who was Joseph of Arimathea? A rich man in Israel. Who was the Centurion? A poor graduated office outside Rome living on a salary of salt in need of all the money Joseph could give him. Both went to the Calvary from the Pretorian of Pilate which was quite a distance enough for some talk. The end results were that Joseph got Jesus' body, the Centurion got a fat bribe and Pilate had it from the Centurion that Jesus was already dead. All three happy.

John 19:33-35 But when they came to Yeshua, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Click to expand...

The Romans were very meticulous about orders. I mean, they could not do any different from one crucified to another. The method was the same. Nothing more or less. Therefore, there was no braking of legs to any of the crucified including Jesus. There was neither any piercing of one's side. The Romans would not do any thing extra from what was determined by the law.
The piercing is a reference to Psalm 22:17 which means taking off freedom by "mauling" one's hands and feet.

There was no doubt he was dead. He had all the signs of a dead body.

Click to expand...

There was no doubt Jesus was still alive.

Mat 28:1-4 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Click to expand...

And what did they see? An empty tomb. If you ask me, the soldiers spent the whole Sabbath watching an empty tomb. Joseph had done his work well.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of YHWH descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

Click to expand...

Never mind the countenance of the angel! What did he see when he removed the stone of the tomb? Nothing! It was empty.

How come the women and the disciples had no knowledge that Nicodemus and Joseph took Yeshua? They all went to the tomb. Who helped those two men roll the stone away and carry the body without being seen by anyone?

Click to expand...

The disciples had fled when Jesus was arrested in the Gethsemane. The women were at home preparing scents to anoint Jesus' body.

Yeshua had no wife. There are also a multitude of witnesses that saw him descend into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand as per Psalm 110:1 (Acts 1:2-11).

Click to expand...

A health man over 30 without a wife was either sick in the flesh or of mind. What was the case of Jesus, do you have any idea? Besides, to get married was a commandment if you read Genesis 2:24 and Jesus declared that he had come to fulfill all the commandments down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Yeshua himself said he was dead and that he resurrected. So you are calling him a liar. Not good.

Click to expand...

Prove it! If you can't, not good either. Regarding the Messiah, indeed, it behoved Messiah to suffer aka the Suffering Servant but not to die. The Messiah is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah
31:35-37)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
Yes, ToBeLoved, and very good evidences. Jesus was a Jew, I am sure you know it; if a Jew is used in a way to reflect a Hellenistic doctrine as for instance the one we have in Matthew 1:18, he is being used to represent a Hellenistic doctrine as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, that's Replacement Theology.

Would you please explain this more and include the Old Testament scriptures that support your position? From what I read you seem to be saying (correct me if I am wrong) that because Jesus was born with Mary's DNA that that is against the Old Testament scriptures? Please explain and include scriptures so I can understand that point, because I don't know that.

Second, how is that Replacement Theory? Again, please explain more completely.

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
Do you have any thing besides only your faith that Jesus resurrected.

There is the stupefying change in the disciples. Before the Jesus' death, they were as cowards. All but John ran and hid, and did not attend the crucifixion. Peter denied him three times. After the burial they laid low, not wanting to draw attention to themselves.

Then they were suddenly transformed into bold, fearless, dynamic preachers, willing to suffer for their faith, even die for it (all except John were martyred).

SOMETHING happened to metamorphose these men, something big. If it was not the resurrection as they claimed it was (that's seems to me to be the most likely reason), then what do you think it was?

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
Do you know Capitalization is a sign of diety?

Capitalization indicates a proper noun. Nothing more.

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Hellenism is the basis of Christianity.

Please quote and cite.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets.
The Vatican 2 document, Nostra Aetate
Nostra aetate

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
if a Jew is used in a way to reflect a Hellenistic doctrine as for instance the one we have in Matthew 1:18, he is being used to represent a Hellenistic doctrine as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, that's Replacement Theology.

I think you misunderstand what "Replacement Theology" means. Replacement Theology, also called Supersessionism, means that the Church has replaced Israel and will now receive the promises granted to Israel in the Tanakh. It was most common throughout Church history, but since the Holocaust has fallen out of favor with most churches.

gadar perets · Jan 8, 2017

First, please learn how to separate your replies from my posts. It makes it much more difficult for me to reply.

Shibolet said:
Who was Joseph of Arimathea? A rich man in Israel. Who was the Centurion? A poor graduated office outside Rome living on a salary of salt in need of all the money Joseph could give him. Both went to the Calvary from the Pretorian of Pilate which was quite a distance enough for some talk. The end results were that Joseph got Jesus' body, the Centurion got a fat bribe and Pilate had it from the Centurion that Jesus was already dead. All three happy.

The Centurion took a bribe? Where is that written? Who are your witnesses to that? More slander and false accusations with no proof.

The Romans were very meticulous about orders. I mean, they could not do any different from one crucified to another. The method was the same. Nothing more or less. Therefore, there was no braking of legs to any of the crucified including Jesus. There was neither any piercing of one's side. The Romans would not do any thing extra from what was determined by the law.

Show me the Roman law you are referring to. Without it, you have no argument, just false assumptions.

A health man over 30 without a wife was either sick in the flesh or of mind.

Philo and Josephus mention that the Essenes did not marry by choice. Here's Philo:

Philo, Hypothetica 11.14-17

Again, perceiving with more than ordinary acuteness and accuracy, what is alone or at least above all other things calculated to dissolve such associations, they repudiate marriage; and at the same time they practise continence in an eminent degree; for no one of the Essenes ever marries a wife . . . . This now is the enviable system of life of these Essenes, so that not only private individuals but even mighty kings, admiring the men, venerate their sect, and increase their dignity and majesty in a still higher degree by their approbation and by the honours which they confer on them.

As you can see, The Essenes were envied, admired, venerated and honored by important men like Philo and kings. They were not thought of as sick or insane, as you do, simply because they chose to not get married.

Besides, to get married was a commandment if you read Genesis 2:24 and Jesus declared that he had come to fulfill all the commandments down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Genesis 2:24 does not say, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and go find a wife." It means that if you choose to get a wife, you are to leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife. You are not to stay with your parents while you are married, if at all possible.

The Messiah is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah
31:35-37)

Israel is never called "The Messiah". Nor does Jeremiah 31:35-37 say such a thing. Yes, that passage does imply Israel will always exist as a nation before YHWH, but it does NOT say they are "the Messiah". Habakkuk 3:13 doesn't say that either. The JPS, which you prefer, reads;

Thou art come forth for the deliverance of Thy people, for the deliverance of Thine anointed;

YHWH has many anointed including Israel's kings and even a pagan king (Cyrus), but He only has one "The Messiah". That would be the ONE the nation of Israel has awaited for millennia. They missed him (Yeshua) the first time he came and so the Messiah gave them up until a specific woman gives birth (Micah 5:3), but they won't miss him when he comes again.

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

gadar perets said:
[Adonai] has many anointed

I'm not trying to boss you around. This is just a question. Given that you are on the MJ forum, and Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, have you even considered out of respect for Jewish traditions substituting the name Adonai (LORD) for the tetragram, as we Jews feel it is more respectful to the sacred name of God? Again, do as you wish.

gadar perets · Jan 8, 2017

Open Heart said:
I'm not trying to boss you around. This is just a question. Given that you are on the MJ forum, and Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, have you even considered out of respect for Jewish traditions substituting the name Adonai (LORD) for the tetragram, as we Jews feel it is more respectful to the sacred name of God? Again, do as you wish.

Actually, I used "YHWH" rather than "Yahweh" out of respect for the Jews. I use "YHWH" rather than "Adonai" out of respect for my Creator. If "Adonai" is in a text, I will use it. If "YHWH" is in the text, I will use it. In informal speech and writings, I can try to be more accommodating to Jews by not using the Tetragrammaton. However, I think the Jews should be more respectful to the Creator by not removing His name from a text when they write it. If they don't like "YHWH", then they should use "YHVH" or יהוה

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

gadar perets said:
If they don't like "YHWH", then they should use "YHVH" or יהוה

Again, let your conscience be your guide, and God bless you. I'm sure you are aware that even Christian translators use LORD in all caps, so that we are aware it is the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew, yet they keep the respect for the Sacred Name.

gadar perets · Jan 8, 2017

Open Heart said:
I'm sure you are aware that even Christian translators use LORD in all caps, so that we are aware it is the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew, yet they keep the respect for the Sacred Name.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHWH your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

gadar perets said:
Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHWH your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2017

BobRyan said: ↑
anointed as a nation is not the same as Messiah as a nation. David calls the wicked King Saul - the "anointed" of the Lord.

Shibolet said:
Okay, let me clear that up for you. I have already given you Habakkuk 3:1 where we have the Anointed One of the Lord as a nation.

Hab 3 (NASB)
1. A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet, according to Shigionoth.
2 Lord, I have heard the report about You and I fear.
O Lord, revive Your work in the midst of the years,
In the midst of the years make it known;
In wrath remember mercy

13 - You went forth for the salvation of Your people,
For the salvation of Your anointed.
You struck the head of the house of the evil
To lay him open from thigh to neck. Selah.

6 I heard and my inward parts trembled,
At the sound my lips quivered.
Decay enters my bones,
And in my place I tremble.
Because I must wait quietly for the day of distress,
For the people to arise who will invade us.

All the prophets of both North and Southern kingdoms confess Israel and Judah were judged for their iniquity -- not for their righteousness. And while it is true that a nation can be God's anointed for a specific mission

The people in Hab 3 are Israel and they need saving - they need salvation when they become wicked.

Isaiah 45:1 -- Cyrus - 1Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed, Whom I have taken by the right hand,

And so also with the wicked king Saul -
1 Samuel 26:9 But David said to Abishai, "Do not destroy him, for who can stretch out his hand against the LORD'S anointed and be without guilt?"

It is "God's people" in Isaiah 53 that need saving. It is they who need a savior. Your point that they too had been anionted for a specific mission is not disputed - but clearly all the prophets -- their own prophets -- say they fell into sin and needed saving themselves.

=====================

Isaiah 53
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished

Open Heart · Jan 8, 2017

Shibolet said:
Okay, let me clear that up for you. I have already given you Habakkuk 3:1 where we have the Anointed One of the Lord as a nation.

I think you mistyped, and meant Habakkuk 3:13 where it says:
13 Thou art come forth for the deliverance of Thy people, for the deliverance of Thine anointed;

In that verse, clearly it is Israel who is the anointed. However, it is my opinion that it is referring to the anointing of Israel as a priestly people, not as the messiah.

gadar perets · Jan 8, 2017

Open Heart said:
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

Exactly! We are to use His name, but not in vain. It does not say, "Thou shalt not use the name of YHWH thy Elohim."

Open Heart · Jan 9, 2017

gadar perets said:
Exactly! We are to use His name, but not in vain. It does not say, "Thou shalt not use the name of YHWH thy Elohim."

IMHO, using the Sacred Name casually, IOW outside of worship, is in vain.

Today, the pronunciation of the Sacred Name is LOST. To guess at the pronunciation of the Sacred Name, even in worship, is disrespect, and therefore in vain.

gadar perets · Jan 9, 2017

Open Heart said:
IMHO, using the Sacred Name casually, IOW outside of worship, is in vain.

You need to drop your opinion and follow the Scriptural examples. From Genesis 4:1 where Eve said to Adam in a conversation outside of worship, "I have gotten a man from YHWH" through to Job 12:9 where Job said to Zophar in a conversation outside of worship, ""Who among all these does not know That the hand of YHWH has done this," people have always used the Name in conversations outside of worship. I didn't include any books from Psalms to Malachi since you might think those pertain to worship.

Today, the pronunciation of the Sacred Name is LOST. To guess at the pronunciation of the Sacred Name, even in worship, is disrespect, and therefore in vain.

If it is lost, who caused that loss? The Jews by their man made rules to not use the Name and to replace it with "Adonai" or "HaShem," not to mention all the various false vowel pointings they placed on the Tetragrammaton. The Almighty expects us to pronounce His Name when we are reading Scripture. If we err in how we pronounce it, He will not hold us guilty. He desires our desire to proclaim His Name. He will hold us guilty for removing His Name and substituting a known error in its place when reading or writing Scripture.

Open Heart · Jan 10, 2017

gadar perets said:
If it is lost, who caused that loss?

Irrelevant. The point is,you can't say it because you don't know how. All you can do is guess and butcher it in the process.

Is the Messiah a person or a nation according to the Bible

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Similar threads