Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Again, try researching the Bible on judgment. The Bible does not condemn judgment. In fact, you cannot hold to a standard of morality without judgment.
...

There is the judgement we make overall for our own morality.

Then separately we make judgement upon others. Judgement upon others is very tricky. Open judgement is not righteous if it is not done in wisdom and truth.

Hence why Jesus was so amazing.

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
You are VERY on today. Hitting every point. Love reading this thread today. Keep sharing your God given wisdom.

Thank you for such gracious words. But I have no more spiritual wisdom than you do.
We agree for the Holy Spirit who dwells in us both brings us to be of one heart and one mind concerning the message( mostly anyways lol)
That's the way it should be isn't it. And its wonderful when we experience such oneness with others in Christ
God bless

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
What about people who murder and rape while they quote the Scriptures? Do you think these types of individuals are saved?

If not, then please explain.

....

Can you show me one piece of proof that someone murders and quotes scripture?

In the same sense, someone who rapes and quotes scripture.

There must be articles about these people somewhere or in books. I'd like to see the proof please. I'm sure there are some very, very mentally ill like serial killers or Psycho's that are psychotically clinically declared so by professional doctors.

So please document. The world hates us so if they exist the world would have written about them. Jesus says that the world hated Him and hates us also because of Him.

So was someone in the act of murder with a knife, stabbing someone quoting John 3:16 or another verse?

Or was someone in the sexual act of rape while screaming Genesis 1?

Please show proof.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Do you even try to obey each and every literal command of Christ?

Yes. I strive obey all of the Commands in the New Testament. But what you fail to realize is that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Also, I do not look to the Old Testament to obey God. I look to the New Testament to obey God. Now, before you say the Laws like: "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, and do not steal were also a part of the Old Covenant", you have to realize that certain Commands in the Old Testament were attached with physical death penalties if you disobeyed them (Which would include the popular moral law you are familar with). But this is not the case under the New Covenant. We have God's grace to repent and be forgiven. Repentance is defined for us by Jesus in Matthew 12:41. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah 3:6-10, the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God for forgiveness and to turn from their sin. When God seen that they had turn from their wickedness, ..... THEN .... God turned away from the Wrath or Judgement He was going to bring upon them.

...

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Read the next few verses.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness"

Did you become a slave or servant to righteousness?
Paul says we have been freed from sin and we have become servants or slaves to righteousness.

If Jesus thought that each of His Children would immediately go from sin to righteousness, why did Jesus even give us repentance?

Why would we need it? Why would we not be servants of righteousness?

Why would Christ even clothe us in His righteousness IF we mess up. According to you no one messes up. They are righteous. That is your argument.

You've even admitted that you sin. So are you a servant of Satan now?

You cannot have butter on both sides of the bread. God's Word says "ONE CANNOT SERVE TWO MASTERS".

So who is your master Jason? You're perfectly righteous? Do tell.

You need to figure out what side of the bread or who YOU'RE MASTER is. Because I wonder.

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yes. I strive obey all of the Commands in the New Testament. But what you fail to realize is that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Also, I do not look to the Old Testament to obey God. I look to the New Testament to obey God. Now, before you say the Laws like: "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, and do not steal were also a part of the Old Covenant", you have to realize that certain Commands in the Old Testament were attached with physical death penalties if you disobeyed them (Which would include the popular moral law you are familar with). But this is not the case under the New Covenant. We have God's grace to repent and be forgiven. Repentance is defined for us by Jesus in Matthew 12:41. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah 3:6-10, the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God for forgiveness and to turn from their sin. When God seen that they had turn from their wickedness, ..... THEN .... God turned away from the Wrath or Judgement He was going to bring upon them.

...

I take it then you wouldn't invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven.

If you believe In fasting you would not be a hypocrite, ensuring no one but God knows you fast.
If someone stole from you, you would gladly give them more besides with nothing but love in your heart for the thief.
You love those who Slander and malign you, those who may persecute you, and if anyone wanted to borrow from you, you would lend to them without expecting anything back.

By the way.

Why do you not view Christs commands as Paul viewed fulfilling them?
Do you believe Paul was wrong?

And you strive to obey every single literal command in the entire NT?
How is there enough time in the day for you to do that?
Hope you are being entirely honest here.
You wouldn't be obeying all those commands if you fibbed would you!

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I take it then you wouldn't invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind and beggars so you nay receive your reward in heaven.

If you believe I fasting you would not beva hypocrite, ensuring no one but God knows you fast.
If someone stole from you, you would gladly give the more besides with nothing but love in your heart for the thief.
You love those who SDA lander and malign you, those who may persecute you, and if anyone wanted to borrow from you, you would lend to them without expecting anything back.

By the way.

Why do you not view Christs commands as Paul viewed fulfilling them?
Do you believe Paul was wrong?

And you strive to obey every single literal command in the entire NT?
How is there enough time in the day for you to do that?
Hope you are being entirely honest here.
You wouldn't be obeying all those commands if you fibbed would you!

No way he could be doing that, he is too busy talking about sin on CF.

There is no way he could not judge every sin he saw first. Psychologically being superior to others is a great motivator of ourselves and our pride. I read about it with those trash talk shows like Ricki Lake and Maury Povitch. There is a psychological component to us where as long as we see people who are "worse" than us in whatever we want to beleive we are superior to them in, that that makes us feel that we are not the 'worst' out there. That we are "bad" but not the "worst".

Even in watching such sickness, our minds are getting something out of it that says we are not as bad as them. I forget the big study that was done, but that is how depraved our mind is. We will go to no length not to feel better about ourselves.

I beleive that after being on CF for about 4 years, this happens here with certain people who are obsessed with talking about something particular. The obsession must be fed. They must get that there are those who are "worse" than them, so they feel 'better' not being as bad as the 'worst'/

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yes. I strive obey all of the Commands in the New Testament. But what you fail to realize is that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Also, I do not look to the Old Testament to obey God. I look to the New Testament to obey God. Now, before you say the Laws like: "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, and do not steal were also a part of the Old Covenant", you have to realize that certain Commands in the Old Testament were attached with physical death penalties if you disobeyed them (Which would include the popular moral law you are familar with). But this is not the case under the New Covenant. We have God's grace to repent and be forgiven. Repentance is defined for us by Jesus in Matthew 12:41. Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah 3:6-10, the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God for forgiveness and to turn from their sin. When God seen that they had turn from their wickedness, ..... THEN .... God turned away from the Wrath or Judgement He was going to bring upon them.

...

The problem with your gospel message is( or one of the problems) it tends not to produce much love in the person.

Imagine a person not practising what they preached/ demanded of others.
They break the second most important commandment every time they do that, for they crush people with demands they cant and don't try to keep themselves

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
No way he could be doing that, he is too busy talking about sin on CF.

There is no way he could not judge every sin he saw first. Psychologically being superior to others is a great motivator of ourselves and our pride. I read about it with those trash talk shows like Ricki Lake and Maury Povitch. There is a psychological component to us where as long as we see people who are "worse" than us in whatever we want to beleive we are superior to them in, that that makes us feel that we are not the 'worst' out there. That we are "bad" but not the "worst".

Even in watching such sickness, our minds are getting something out of it that says we are not as bad as them. I forget the big study that was done, but that is how depraved our mind is. We will go to no length not to feel better about ourselves.

Absolutely!
People actually delight In seeing sin/ imperfections in other christians for it makes them feel they are more sure to attain heaven themselves, believing they are holier than others who go to church

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Can you show me one piece of proof that someone murders and quotes scripture?

In the same sense, someone who rapes and quotes scripture.

There must be articles about these people somewhere or in books. I'd like to see the proof please. I'm sure there are some very, very mentally ill like serial killers or Psycho's that are psychotically clinically declared so by professional doctors.

So please document. The world hates us so if they exist the world would have written about them. Jesus says that the world hated Him and hates us also because of Him.

So was someone in the act of murder with a knife, stabbing someone quoting John 3:16 or another verse?

Or was someone in the sexual act of rape while screaming Genesis 1?

Please show proof.

George Sodini
David Koresh
Paul Jennings Hill

...are just a few.

...

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Absolutely!
People actually delight In seeing sin/ imperfections in other christians for it makes them feel they are more sure to attain heaven themselves, believing they are holier than others who go to church

It's not hard to see the heart of someone if they keep posting over time (year/years). Where are hearts are, our minds are also.

And if there is no growth where are the fruit of the spirit?

It's interesting watching certain people over many years. Not a lot of people, but I can think of four personally off the top of my head.

What I REALLY HATE is when they call their obsession with a topic, like sin, "their calling from God to show to the other sheep!"

I want to

Titus 1:13
Therefore rebuke them sternly, so that they will be sound in the faith,

Titus 1:15
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

James 1:8
He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

I could go on, but you get my point.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The problem with your gospel message is( or one of the problems) it tends not to produce much love in the person.

Imagine a person not practising what they preached/ demanded of others.
They break the second most important commandment every time they do that, for they crush people with demands they cant and don't try to keep themselves

The problem with the OSAS gospel message is that it leads to Antinomianism on some level (Which is basically giving people a license to sin or do evil in God's name). That's the problem.

Think... can anything involving God lead us down the wrong path?
No. Not ever. If we follow God, we will be on the path to righteousness and living righteously and not living for that which is wrong or evil.

Why?

Because God is good.

....

ToBeLoved · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
George Sodini
David Koresh
Paul Jennings Hill

...are just a few.

...

So when did David Koresh rape or kill? And how did they justifify specifically what they did with God's Word?

You really need facts. You are making very big points and position against the nature of God's people.

We deserve more. Who is the other guy?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
It's not hard to see the heart of someone if they keep posting over time (year/years). Where are hearts are, our minds are also.

The real battle is not ad hominems but in explaining the Scriptures clearly.
Whenever I post verses, they go ignored many times.
When I explain verses put forth by my opponents who believe in OSAS, there are times they do not even use Scripture and they just use words of disagreement. The battle must always come back to the Word of God and not insults or opinions.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The problem with the OSAS gospel message is that it leads to Antinomianism on some level (Which is basically giving people a license to sin or do evil in God's name). That's the priblem

....

You need to read the bible more, and seek to understand beyond the letter, to see the heart of the message. The harder you try to be righteous under the letter of the law, the more I earnest you are about this, the more corrupted you become on the inside.

You can appear most Godly on the outside, but the inside is a very different matter.

Matt ch23&rom7:7-11&14-24

2X4 · Jan 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The real battle is not ad hominems but in explaining the Scriptures clearly.
Whenever I post verses, they go ignored many times.
When I explain verses put forth by my opponents who believe in OSAS, there are times they do not even use Scripture and they just use words of disagreement. The battle must always come back to the Word of God and not insults or opinions.

...

Did you know that none of this debating has anything to do with God saving ALL created MEN during this generation? ALL this arguing comes from MEN being influenced by Satan and the Beast.

2X4 · Jan 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You need to read the bible more, and seek to understand beyond the letter, to see the heart of the message. The harder you try to be righteous under the letter of the law, the more I earnest you are about this, the more corrupted you become on the inside.

You can appear most Godly on the outside, but the inside is a very different matter.

Matt ch23&rom7:7-11&14-24

Reading words in a book will not make you anymore spiritual. Only God can chose who is going to be "reborn" in the Spirit and listen to His voice and obey ALL His commandments which is the only way to learn what the Truth is. You can read and study the Bible for the rest of your life and not ever learn what the Truth is.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
So when did David Koresh rape or kill? And how did they justifify specifically what they did with God's Word?

You really need facts. You are making very big points and position against the nature of God's people.

We deserve more. Who is the other guy?

Koresh practically memorized the New Testament and he had relations with children. George Sodini strongly believed in OSAS. Yet, he was a mass murderer and he committed suicide. He even had written a suicide note claiming he would be in heaven.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2017

2X4 said:
Did you know that none of this debating has anything to do with God saving ALL created MEN during this generation? ALL this arguing comes from MEN being influenced by Satan and the Beast.

Debating against that which is false, wrong, or sinful is good.
Do you believe in OSAS?

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 8, 2017

2X4 said:
Reading words in a book will not make you anymore spiritual. Only God can chose who is going to be "reborn" in the Spirit and listen to His voice and obey ALL His commandments which is the only way to learn what the Truth is. You can read and study the Bible for the rest of your life and not ever learn what the Truth is.

I totally agree you can read and study the bible for the rest of your life and not learn truth.
The Pharisees of Jesus day knew the letter of the then scriptures inside out, but not the heart of the message

Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

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