Is the Messiah a person or a nation according to the Bible

Shibolet · Jan 4, 2017

BobRyan said:
And then resurrects himself (because He is in fact the Son of God) - and goes to heaven as our High Priest.

Do you have any thing besides only your faith that Jesus resurrected. Even an eyewitness there was not. Jesus WAS a son of God during his lifetime as part of Israel aka the permanent Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

1. Your statement appears to consider what we have been saying and concluding that the scenario we present cannot work because "no individual , under no circumstances " could to that. But that is a circular argument because you insert your own model as the premise.

The model inserted in the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach is not mine but of the prophets of the Most High if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

If you insert our premise into our scenario - then it is more than "certain" that God can do such a thing. The question is did he -- and does the Tanakh describe the Messiah as a person or a nation.

Except for the king, the High Priest or the Prophet, the Tanach does describe the Messiah as the nation. Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel and Messiah Ben David aka Judah.

I assume your reference to 'Messiah every generation" is that he needs to be around "forever" and since one person "God" is in fact around forever - no need to start over "every generation".

I don't believe you could rationalize on that premise. I thought you were greater than that!

The Messiah is not supposed to cease to exist - but can still be the sin offering the dies for our sins. Only possible if God does it -- and still use the "single person" details that we see in the Tanakh.

Go ahead and show me evidences of an individual Messiah in the Tanach besides the king, the High Priest and the Prophet.

IT is "For the sins of My people" that the Messiah dies - in Isaiah 53 - so therefore it cannot be "my people die as a sin offering for the sins of my people" in any sort of atonement. That is not how atonement works - taking a wicked sinful corrupt imperfect sacrifice and having it die for its own sins. Not at all what we see in Lev 16.

That was Prophet Isaiah speaking. His People was the People of Judah. So, Israel, the Suffering Servant was removed or rejected by the Lord in a sin offering for those of Judah. (Isaiah 53:11) As I can see, you have not read my most recent thread on "Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David." Every thing is explained in there.

The LORD went forth -- YHWH went forth. That is exactly who Jesus was/and-still-is

Sorry, but Jesus is dead. He no longer can be any thing if you read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.[/QUOTE]

Shibolet · Jan 4, 2017

Open Heart said:
While I think plagiarism isn't the word you are looking for, I do understand what you are saying and feel there is some merit to your position. We shall have to simply agree to disagree agreeably.

Well, that's a pity but, you are right that we have to agree to disagree.

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2017

Shibolet said:
You have acknowledged above that the Messiah is the Anointed One. So, based on that statement, I am going to provide you with that ghost of a chance you deny without thinking twice.

1 - If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
2 - If you understand that "consecrated" means "anointed" that's what Israel is if you read Deuteronomy 7:6.
3 - And last but not least, "The Lord is "their" strength; a stronghold for the deliverance of His Anointed to deliver and bless His own People. (Psalm 28:8,9)

Do you still believe that there is not a ghost of a chance of finding any form of Jewish agreement on Messiah as a nation? Behold! I have given you three from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

David calls the wicked king Saul - the "Lord's annointed" that did not make Saul the Messiiah - even in David's day - the day in which Saul lived. I think we would both agree to that.

========================

Jesus was sinless - and spotless - the perfect "Sin offering" of Isaiah 53 --

How about the Northern Kingdom Israel? Do their own prophets say they were a sinless spotless "sin offering" for Judah?

============= let's see

The wickedness of the Northern Kingdom Israel - according to her own prophets and scribes.

It was king Ahab who introduced Baal worship to them.

1 Kings 16:30-33 Now Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the LORD, more than all who were before him. And it came to pass, as though it had been a trivial thing for him to walk in the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, that he took as wife Jezebel the daughter of Ethbaal, king of the Sidonians; and he went and served Baal and worshiped him. Then he set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal, which he had built in Samaria. And Ahab made a wooden image. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him.

II Kings 17:7-23 For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and they had feared other gods, and had walked in the statutes of the nations whom the LORD had cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.

Also the children of Israel secretly did against the LORD their God things that were not right, and they built for themselves high places in all their cities, from watchtower to fortified city. They set up for themselves sacred pillars and wooden images on every high hill and under every green tree. There they burned incense on all the high places, like the nations whom the LORD had carried away before them; and they did wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger, for they served idols, of which the LORD had said to them, "You shall not do this thing."
Yet the LORD testified against Israel and against Judah, by all of His prophets, every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets." Nevertheless they would not hear, but stiffened their necks, like the necks of their fathers, who did not believe in the LORD their God. And they rejected His statutes and His covenant that He had made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He had testified against them; they followed idols, became idolaters, and went after the nations who were all around them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them that they should not do like them.

So they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, made for themselves a molded image and two calves, made a wooden image and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. And they caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and soothsaying, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.

Rather than being sinless and spotless "sin offerings" from someone else they themselves were wicked -- according to their own prophets.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone. . And the LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel, afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them from His sight. For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel from following the LORD, and made them commit a great sin. For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, until the LORD removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.

Click to expand...

Nothing at all there about being a perfect sinless spotless sacrifice for saving Judah. - and we can all see that.

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2017

Shibolet said:
================ Messiah as a nation not a person.

From the viewpoint of Logic, no individual, under no circumstances could be the Messiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies.

And then resurrects himself (because He is in fact the Son of God) - and goes to heaven as our High Priest.

1. Your statement appears to consider what we have been saying and concluding that the scenario we present cannot work because "no individual , under no circumstances " could to that. But that is a circular argument because you insert your own model as the premise.

If you insert our premise into our scenario - then it is more than "certain" that God can do such a thing. The question is did he -- and does the Tanakh describe the Messiah as a person or a nation.

2. I assume your reference to 'Messiah every generation" is that he needs to be around "forever" and since one person "God" is in fact around forever - no need to start over "every generation".

The Messiah is not supposed to cease to exist - but can still be the sin offering the dies for our sins. Only possible if God does it -- and still use the "single person" details that we see in the Tanakh.

"Not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)"

IT is "For the sins of My people" that the Messiah dies - in Isaiah 53 - so therefore it cannot be "my people die as a sin offering for the sins of my people" in any sort of atonement. That is not how atonement works - taking a wicked sinful corrupt imperfect sacrifice and having it die for its own sins. Not at all what we see in Lev 16.

The LORD went forth -- YHWH went forth. That is exactly who Jesus was/and-still-is

Shibolet said:
Do you have any thing besides only your faith that Jesus resurrected. Even an eyewitness there was not.

His Jewish disciple John said this --

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.

Jesus WAS a son of God during his lifetime as part of Israel aka the permanent Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

Jesus was of the tribe of Judah - I think we both agree on that.

the Tanach does describe the Messiah as the nation. Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel and Messiah Ben David aka Judah.

Where?

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2017

Eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ in the Bible. --

many eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ

1 Corinthians 15
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

==============================

Luke 24
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

The Ascension of Jesus
50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

====================================

Acts 1

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Shibolet · Jan 5, 2017

BobRyan said:
Eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ in the Bible. --

many eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ

I read your long post and, not a single one of the quotes shows an EYEWITNESS of the resurrection. Listen BR, no offense meant but, do you really know the definition of an eyewitness? An eyewitness in this case was the one who saw the event happening. You have no evidence besides faith to consolidate your assertion. Let the truth be said! None of the disciples nor any of the women saw any thing happening.

ToBeLoved · Jan 5, 2017

Shibolet said:
================ Messiah as a nation not a person.

From the viewpoint of Logic, no individual, under no circumstances could be the Messiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Hence, "The Lord went forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Therefore,
"Messiah as a nation, not as as a person."

Do you know Capitalization is a sign of diety?

You are in essence calling your nation, God. Now that is pretty anti Torah.

How can God be one God if God is millions of people? No way your scriptures say that. Nope.

And ... if your position is true than all the suffering of Israel is Israel's own fault for not being better to themselves. (now I am so so confused)

ToBeLoved · Jan 5, 2017

Shibolet said:
You have acknowledged above that the Messiah is the Anointed One. So, based on that statement, I am going to provide you with that ghost of a chance you deny without thinking twice.

1 - If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
2 - If you understand that "consecrated" means "anointed" that's what Israel is if you read Deuteronomy 7:6.
3 - And last but not least, "The Lord is "their" strength; a stronghold for the deliverance of His Anointed to deliver and bless His own People. (Psalm 28:8,9)

Do you still believe that there is not a ghost of a chance of finding any form of Jewish agreement on Messiah as a nation? Behold! I have given you three from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

If Israel is it's own messiah, then why has God been punishing you all through out the Old Testament and scattered you all over the earth? Then does that not minimize the word Messiah in your culture to one that is punished but never saved? And a nation that does not save itself it if it would be indeed the Annointed One, which I do not believe it is? This has been going on for 4,000 years now. I really do not understand your position at all.

ToBeLoved · Jan 5, 2017

Shibolet said:
The name is plagiarism. The Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew was interested only on scoring one more prophecy about Jesus. He committed a grave error though because, Hosea 11:1 is proved by Exodus 4:22,23. Nothing to do with Yeshua and every thing to do with Israel. I wonder how one can reconcile him or herself with what can't be true. Only people intent on promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

How does the Gospel of Matthew promote replacement theology? Or even Paul for that matter? If you are going to make grave accusations, you must have some good evidence.

I'd really also like you to explain how you think Hosea 11:1 or Exodus 4:22, 23 proves Matthew wrong?

Seems to me you speak in some kind of riddles that promote non understanding because you do not explain anything you say, yet make all kinds of harsh accusations. I think you need to provide proof if you are going to promote hate speech.

gadar perets · Jan 5, 2017

Shibolet said:
I read your long post and, not a single one of the quotes shows an EYEWITNESS of the resurrection. Listen BR, no offense meant but, do you really know the definition of an eyewitness? An eyewitness in this case was the one who saw the event happening. You have no evidence besides faith to consolidate your assertion. Let the truth be said! None of the disciples nor any of the women saw any thing happening.

Of course there were no eye witnesses to the actual resurrection. It took place in a sealed tomb. However, their were many eye witnesses who not only saw him die and lying dead, but they also saw him alive three days later. If you saw one of your relatives die in a car accident and attended his burial, but days later saw him walking around and even conversed with him and later saw him ascend into heaven, would you believe he resurrected from the dead? Of course you would because you were not only a witness to his death, but his being alive again. There are a multitude of eye witnesses that saw Yeshua alive after seeing him dead and buried. To deny the evidence is to hide your head in the sand.

Shibolet · Jan 6, 2017

gadar perets said:
Of course there were no eye witnesses to the actual resurrection. It took place in a sealed tomb. However, their were many eye witnesses who not only saw him die and lying dead, but they also saw him alive three days later. If you saw one of your relatives die in a car accident and attended his burial, but days later saw him walking around and even conversed with him and later saw him ascend into heaven, would you believe he resurrected from the dead? Of course you would because you were not only a witness to his death, but his being alive again. There are a multitude of eye witnesses that saw Yeshua alive after seeing him dead and buried. To deny the evidence is to hide your head in the sand.

Very good Mr. Perets! I can see, you are making use of Logic. That's fine but, it did not happen that way. We must interpret this text through contextual evidences. If you read "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus, thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in the First Century and, it was not uncommon for some Jews to linger on their crosses for even up to 4 days sometimes, passing out and back till death eventually caught up with them and as we know, Jesus did not spend more than three hours on his cross.

If you read the gospel of Mark, Pilate was taken by surprise when Joseph
requested permission to remove Jesus from the cross and bury him. In his suspicion that he was already dead, he could not believe Joseph. So, he called for the Centurion to go with Joseph to make sure Jesus was already dead.

It is obvious that when Joseph took Jesus from the cross he didn't have the signs of a dead body. Hence, Joseph laid Jesus to rest in order not to call for unwanted attention and went for help. In about an hour or two, he returned with Nicodemus who was bringing about 100 pounds of medications to mend his wounds and more.

It was about two hours or more late into the Sabbath when, probably, they removed Jesus from the tomb and transferred him into another unknown place. After VIP care at the hands of two rich Pharisees aka Nicodemus and Joseph, Jesus started appearing to his disciples for about 40 days, eating and drinking with them. When he realized that there was no more need to remain with them, he must have left Israel with his wife Mary Magdalene and Joseph. Obviously, they could not expose themselves around or they would be arrested for having made a fool out of Pilate and taken back to the cross. I believe that better than this above, only an eyewitness of the resurrection could be.

Shibolet · Jan 6, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
How does the Gospel of Matthew promote replacement theology? Or even Paul for that matter? If you are going to make grave accusations, you must have some good evidence.

I'd really also like you to explain how you think Hosea 11:1 or Exodus 4:22, 23 proves Matthew wrong?

Seems to me you speak in some kind of riddles that promote non understanding because you do not explain anything you say, yet make allkinds of harsh accusations. I think you need to provide proof if you are going to promote hate speech.

Yes, ToBeLoved, and very good evidences. Jesus was a Jew, I am sure you know it; if a Jew is used in a way to reflect a Hellenistic doctrine as for instance the one we have in Matthew 1:18, he is being used to represent a Hellenistic doctrine as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, that's Replacement Theology. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Hellenism is the basis of Christianity. A Jew cannot be used to promote a Christian or Hellenistic doctrine.

Now, as Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22,23 are concerned, they dispense with any explanation if you read the quotes. Israel is mentioned as the main point in the text. Israel was in exile in Egypt when HaShem called Israel from Egypt. "When Israel was a child" means, in the very beginning of Israel's History. Now, Israel as the Son of God, the text is plainly clear.

Shibolet · Jan 6, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
If Israel is it's own messiah, then why has God been punishing you all through out the Old Testament and scattered you all over the earth? Then does that not minimize the word Messiah in your culture to one that is punished but never saved? And a nation that does not save itself it if it would be indeed the Annointed One, which I do not believe it is? This has been going on for 4,000 years now. I really do not understand your position at all.

Do you know Capitalization is a sign of diety? You are in essence calling your nation, God. Now that is pretty anti Torah. How can God be one God if God is millions of people? No way your scriptures say that. Nope.

And ... if your position is true than all the suffering of Israel is Israel's own fault for not being better to themselves. (now I am so so confused)[/QUOTE]

Shibolet · Jan 6, 2017

Shibolet said:
Do you know Capitalization is a sign of diety? You are in essence calling your nation, God. Now that is pretty anti Torah. How can God be one God if God is millions of people? No way your scriptures say that. Nope.

And ... if your position is true than all the suffering of Israel is Israel's own fault for not being better to themselves. (now I am so so confused)

A nomen proper has to be capitalized independently of what it means. So, the capitalization of the name Israel has nothing to do with being Divine or not. There is nothing anti-Torah with this. You seem to be joking. And all the sufferings of any one whether he is from Israel or from the Gentiles, it is our own fault.

ToBeLoved · Jan 6, 2017

Shibolet said:
If you read the gospel of Mark, Pilate was taken by surprise when Joseph
requested permission to remove Jesus from the cross and bury him. In his suspicion that he was already dead, he could not believe Joseph. So, he called for the Centurion to go with Joseph to make sure Jesus was already dead.

It is obvious that when Joseph took Jesus from the cross he didn't have the signs of a dead body. Hence, Joseph laid Jesus to rest in order not to call for unwanted attention and went for help. In about an hour or two, he returned with Nicodemus who was bringing about 100 pounds of medications to mend his wounds and more.

It was about two hours or more late into the Sabbath when, probably, they removed Jesus from the tomb and transferred him into another unknown place. After VIP care at the hands of two rich Pharisees aka Nicodemus and Joseph, Jesus started appearing to his disciples for about 40 days, eating and drinking with them. When he realized that there was no more need to remain with them, he must have left Israel with his wife Mary Magdalene and Joseph. Obviously, they could not expose themselves around or they would be arrested for having made a fool out of Pilate and taken back to the cross. I believe that better than this above, only an eyewitness of the resurrection could be.

I am trying really hard to stay out of the conversation as much as I can only because I do not know Jewish customs as well as others and I am reading along more, however I just want to bring forth this verse that says why Jesus body and the other's on crosses were removed for your consideration because it is a Jewish custom and I am not as well versed with.

John 19:31-35
31 It was the day of Preparation, and the next day was a High Sabbath. So in order that the bodies would not remain on the cross during the Sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed. 32The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and those of the other.

33But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out. 35The one who saw it has testified to this, and his testimony is true. He knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.

But it does seem there is a reason for why Joseph wanted Jesus as well as the other Jewish bodies removed from crosses.

Not to debate you on Jewish customs, but to provide insight

ToBeLoved · Jan 6, 2017

Shibolet said:
A nomen proper has to be capitalized independently of what it means. So, the capitalization of the name Israel has nothing to do with being Divine or not. There is nothing anti-Torah with this. You seem to be joking. And all the sufferings of any one whether he is from Israel or from the Gentiles, it is our own fault.

That is not what I was referring to. I was looking at this post that you had made.

1 - If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
2 - If you understand that "consecrated" means "anointed" that's what Israel is if you read Deuteronomy 7:6.
3 - And last but not least, "The Lord is "their" strength; a stronghold for the deliverance of His Anointed to deliver and bless His own People. (Psalm 28:8,9)

The capitalization I am referring to is "Annointed One".

I see Habakkuk 3:13 reading absent of capitalization on 'annointed'. I don't see it capitalized to indicate that Israel is diety, rather it is lowercase, not diety. Notice though that "Your" and "You" is capitalized because it is referring to diety.

Habakkuk 3:13
13 You went forth for the salvation of Your people, For the salvation of Your anointed. You struck the head of the house of the evil To lay him open from thigh to neck. Selah.

This is one example. Israel, I believe is not referred to as the Messiah because annointed is not capitalized and if God were referring to the Messiah, it would have been capitalized.

You notice when I am using "Messiah" above, I use uppercase referring to the fact that the Messiah is God, the Son of God, and diety.

I hope that makes sense.

ToBeLoved · Jan 6, 2017

Shibolet said:
Yes, ToBeLoved, and very good evidences. Jesus was a Jew, I am sure you know it; if a Jew is used in a way to reflect a Hellenistic doctrine as for instance the one we have in Matthew 1:18, he is being used to represent a Hellenistic doctrine as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, that's Replacement Theology. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Hellenism is the basis of Christianity. A Jew cannot be used to promote a Christian or Hellenistic doctrine.
.

I am not saying that I completely understand what you are saying above, but in my reasoning this is not correct.

If this were true, and that would be a big if, I am very confused.

First, you I believe made the claim that Israel was/is the Messiah, which if that were true and it is a group of people, how are they able to permanantly atone for their sin without a Messiah?

Because isn't it true, that ALL of Israel made only temporary atonement to (and I am going to try to use your Jewish words, so sorry if I make a mistake) YHWH through the priesthood (Aaron & Levitical) then how would that same group of people, Israel, be considered completely righteous by YHWY without diety (or God/YHWH) accepting a perfect, sinless atonement for sin?

Would not that same group, Israel have to be of the Melchezedek priesthood and to have a perfect, sinless PERMANENT atonement to YHWY God? And in Christianity we know that Yeshua is the perfect, sinless sacrifice for PERMENENT atonement because YHWH raised Yeshua from the dead in ressurrection, so would not then Israel if it were Messiah then have to have a clear sign or proof from YHWH that YHWH accepted Israel as Messiah? And if that is true, where is the proof in the Old Testament books of scripture?

So, if that is true, how is Israel of the Melchezedek priesthood?

Second, my understanding of Replacement Theology is that a Christian would think that they (Those under Yeshua Messiah's blood) would replace Israel and the promises made to Israel would become void. So, if we believe Yeshua is Messiah, how is that proving that any promises to Israel or anyone ie Abraham, in any covenant would be replaced by the Christian church? Because most Christians do not even believe in Replacement Theology at all. We do not think that God stopped any covenants with Israel (Old Testament people's) because of Christ's Church. We believe that the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Yeshua and that according to Old Testament scripture YHWH told Israel that there was always to be a New Covenant with Hebrew peoples, even back in Jeremiah.

So if YHWH ALWAYS intended upon a New Covenant with Israel/Israelite's/Hebrew people's, than how could Christ's people ever replace Israel. Those who really know the Bible would never advocate for something against God's Word in Jeremiah and there is no other evidence. I have been studying the Bible for over 25 years fairly detailed in study. So I feel confident saying this to you.

gadar perets · Jan 6, 2017

Shibolet said:
If you read the gospel of Mark, Pilate was taken by surprise when Joseph
requested permission to remove Jesus from the cross and bury him. In his suspicion that he was already dead, he could not believe Joseph. So, he called for the Centurion to go with Joseph to make sure Jesus was already dead.

It is obvious that when Joseph took Jesus from the cross he didn't have the signs of a dead body. Hence, Joseph laid Jesus to rest in order not to call for unwanted attention and went for help. In about an hour or two, he returned with Nicodemus who was bringing about 100 pounds of medications to mend his wounds and more.

Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
Mark 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

John 19:33-35 But when they came to Yeshua, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

There was no doubt he was dead. He had all the signs of a dead body.

It was about two hours or more late into the Sabbath when, probably, they removed Jesus from the tomb and transferred him into another unknown place.

Mat 28:1-4 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of YHWH descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

After VIP care at the hands of two rich Pharisees aka Nicodemus and Joseph, Jesus started appearing to his disciples for about 40 days, eating and drinking with them.

How come the women and the disciples had no knowledge that Nicodemus and Joseph took Yeshua? They all went to the tomb. Who helped those two men roll the stone away and carry the body without being seen by anyone?

When he realized that there was no more need to remain with them, he must have left Israel with his wife Mary Magdalene and Joseph. Obviously, they could not expose themselves around or they would be arrested for having made a fool out of Pilate and taken back to the cross. I believe that better than this above, only an eyewitness of the resurrection could be.

Yeshua had no wife. There are also a multitude of witnesses that saw him descend into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand as per Psalm 110:1 (Acts 1:2-11).

Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Yeshua himself said he was dead and that he resurrected. So you are calling him a liar. Not good.

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2017

Shibolet said:
You have acknowledged above that the Messiah is the Anointed One. So, based on that statement, I am going to provide you with that ghost of a chance you deny without thinking twice.

1 - If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.
2 - If you understand that "consecrated" means "anointed" that's what Israel is if you read Deuteronomy 7:6.
3 - And last but not least, "The Lord is "their" strength; a stronghold for the deliverance of His Anointed to deliver and bless His own People. (Psalm 28:8,9)

Do you still believe that there is not a ghost of a chance of finding any form of Jewish agreement on Messiah as a nation? Behold! I have given you three from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

anointed as a nation is not the same as Messiah as a nation.

David calls the wicked King Saul - the "anointed" of the Lord.

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2017

BobRyan said:
Eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ in the Bible. --

many eye witnesses to the resurrected Christ

1 Corinthians 15
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

==============================

Luke 24
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

The Ascension of Jesus
50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

====================================

Acts 1

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Thus proving the bible records 100's of witnesses to the resurrected Christ.

Shibolet said:
I read your long post and, not a single one of the quotes shows an EYEWITNESS of the resurrection.

Is that you agreeing to the 100's of eyewitnesses of the resurrectED Christ but then arguing that none of them saw Him "BEING resurrected" they only saw the result - the resurrected Christ?

OR are you arguing that Christ can not be resurrected - if they only see the resurected Christ - they have to actually watch him come out of the tomb or else he is still dead?

I have also shown many eyewitnesses to the public execution and death of Christ.
Thursday at 8:28 AM #10

Shibolet said:
Listen BR, no offense meant but, do you really know the definition of an eyewitness? An eyewitness in this case was the one who saw the event happening.

I stated that they were eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ. An eye witness to a murdered man - can state they saw the dead man without having to argue that he was not actually dead because they did not see him get killed.

If it is your argument that the resurrected Christ - was merely seen and witnessed but that coming out of the grave was not also witnessed by the disciples - only that they witnessed the placing in the tomb of the dead body and witnessed an empty tomb 3 days later with the stone rolled away and all roman guards gone - that is fine.

Is the Messiah a person or a nation according to the Bible

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