Can someone explain what a Nicene is?

Doveaman said:

The Nicene Creed has nothing to do with the foundation of the church, at least not the church that Jesus founded through His apostles.

The men on the Nicene counsel were mere men like me and you, and they were subject to the same biases and flaws as we are.

Frankly, I think many of those men on those counsels were less knowledgeable about God than many of us are today:

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." -- (Daniel 12:4).

Click to expand...

We are all entitled to an opinion.

Though really, if you don't trust the ekklesia, then you have no basis to trust that the New Testament Scripture IS Scripture. Why these writings, and not the great many others which were rejected?

(They were mostly rejected because the ekklesia as a whole recognized them as forgeries, though they purported to be written by the Apostles as well ... )

Doveaman said:

So let me see if I get this correctly: "πρόσωπον (prosopon) - which is often translated as person/countenance/face".

This means that God as three persons isn't necessarily correct, because πρόσωπον (prosopon) is also translated as countenance or face.

A countenance or face is different from a person, right?

A countenance is a facial expression. This means that πρόσωπον (prosopon) can be translated as God having three facial expressions or three faces, which is completely different from God being three persons.

This means that the Trinity can be described as: God is one being who exists with three faces or three facial expressions -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This idea of a many faced God does have some scriptural support since we know from scripture of living creatures who do have many faces:

“These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim. Each had four faces and four wings” – (Ezekiel 10:20-21).

The Trinity as a many faced God has more scriptural support than a Trinity of a three person God.

Click to expand...

No. this is again a matter of not understanding how language is/was actually used.

Doveaman said:

Oh okay.

I just assumed we were discussing a biblical topic since we are all Christians.

Click to expand...

And your point in saying this is ... ?

If the Son is divine alone, then He had no beginning.

But if the Son is both human and divine, then He had beginning as a Son.

Click to expand...

You are confusing the RELATIONSHIP of the Son to the Father ... with the Incarnation.

Where in scripture does it say the Father always was?

We know that God always was, but not as Father.
We know from scripture that the Word was with God in the beginning (John 1:1), but we don’t know from scripture that the Son was with Father in the beginning.

Click to expand...

The Word is Jesus Christ ... the Word became flesh. Who else "was God ... and became flesh"? And yet, He was both God, and WITH God.

If you choose not to believe the Scriptures, or reinterpret them your own way, well, God has given us all free will. I don't see a point in arguing about it though.

Are there two Lords, according to the Nicene Creed?

Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God"
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life"

Even the Creed contradicts itself.

If you believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, then how is the Holy Spirit also the Lord?

Click to expand...

By that kind of reading, Scripture itself is full of contradictions.

But just as with Scripture, when one thinks one sees that it is obviously contradictory, that is an indication that one's understanding is not yet complete.

The spirit of Man is compared to the Spirit of God:

“For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.” – (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Is the spirit of Man a force/power, or is it a person?
The spirit of Man has a personhood…it has knowledge, thoughts, and understanding:

“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?” – (James 2:26, 1 Corinthians 2:11).

The spirit of Man inspires us with human perception, just as the Spirit of God inspires us with divine perception.

Is the spirit of Man a person?

Click to expand...

Each man HAS/IS (partly) a spirit. There is no "spirit of man" globally as an entity, though it can be expressed that way when one is talking about something like "worldliness" etc.

This is very confused reasoning ...

All4Christ said:

I am not able to get the references for this, but these are some "facts" from Scripture. There is one God and one God alone.

Click to expand...

Cool.

The Son and the Father are One.

Click to expand...

So far, so good.

The Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

Click to expand...

Ok I can accept that.

The Son is the Word.

Click to expand...

Yep.

The Son was with the Father in the beginning and the Son "was God".

Click to expand...

Now here is where you lost me.

Where in scripture does it say the "Son was in the beginning and the Son was God"?

It seems to me you are twisting the words of John who said: "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God." -- (John 1:1).

You are not allowed to twist the words of John.

But lets continue.

Yet, there is one God alone.

Click to expand...

Yes there is.

I don't know how you get around the concept of the Trinity concerning those statements.

Click to expand...

I don’t know how you saw a Trinity in those statements, because I didn’t.

But we can certainly have a concept of a Binity from those statements: God is one Spirit who exists as Father and Son, and Father and Son expresses themselves through their one divine Spirit.

Imagican said:

Where in the Bible are we offered that God and His Son are of the 'same essence'?

Click to expand...

Isaiah 42 (not just "same essence" but all God):

The Bible said:

Thus says God, the Lord,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people upon it
and spirit to those who walk in it:
6 I am the Lord, I have called you in righteousness,
I have taken you by the hand and kept you;
I have given you as a covenant to the people,
a light to the nations,
7 to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
8 I am the Lord, that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to idols.

Click to expand...

....but--the thing is---one cannot come to ANY conclusions by one passage alone. The Bible is meant to be ONE complete reading--not a piece meal to answer ONE question. It has its own plot...its own "story". It's not Siri (where you ask a question and look for that answer).

ETA: Read this passage along with Isaiah 44:6, Colossians 1:16, John 1:3, Nehemiah 9:7 ,Psalm 33, Psalm 102, Revelation 1:8, Rev 21:6, and Rev 22:13.

Isaiah 41:4=

"Who has performed and done this,
calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, am first,
and will be with the last."

Revelation 1:8=

"‘I am the Alpha and the Omega’, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Butch5 said:

The creed uses the Greek word "ek" which literally means to come out of. In John 8 Jesus said that He came out of God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)
The word from is translated from the Greek word "ek" which literally means to come out of.

Begot. God begot God or Deity begot Deity. It's not that the Father begot the Father, but that the Father begot Deity, the Son.

Click to expand...

This still suggests the Son had a beginning. If the Son "came out of" the Father, the point at which He came out would be His beginning.

The difference between begotten and made is that one the begotten comes from within the one who is begetting.

Click to expand...

Does this mean that all humans are begotten and not made, since we all came from within another human?

To make something uses exterior elements.

Click to expand...

What exterior elements did God use to make the universe?

Didn't God make the universe with His own divine energy that "came out of" Himself?

Does this mean the universe was begotten of God, and not made, since the universe "came out of" God?

"For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." -- (Colossians 1:16-17).

In regards to the Word was with God at the beginning - it was The Word was with God and the Word was God...and then says that the Word became man....and then proceeds to talk about Jesus. I don't see how it is twisting that. It's pretty clear that the Word is referring to Jesus. Besides, it says the Father and Jesus are one, Thomas calls Jesus His God, etc. etc.

Doveaman said:

Cool.
So far, so good.
Ok I can accept that.
Yep.
Now here is where you lost me.

Where in scripture does it say the "Son was in the beginning and the Son was God"?

It seems to me you are twisting the words of John who said: "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God." -- (John 1:1).

You are not allowed to twist the words of John.

But lets continue.
Yes there is.
I don’t know how you saw a Trinity in those statements, because I didn’t.

But we can certainly have a concept of a Binity from those statements: God is one Spirit who exists as Father and Son, and Father and Son expresses themselves through their one divine Spirit.

Click to expand...

My main point with this was in the fact that Jesus is God and the Father is God...yet there is only one God. Later we could address scripture about the Holy Spirit, but I need time to get references...since it is during work I can only post quickly.


I'm still processing your last statement. It sounds like you believe in "faces" of God?

Doveaman said:

So let me see if I get this correctly: "πρόσωπον (prosopon) - which is often translated as person/countenance/face".
This means that God as three persons isn't necessarily correct, because πρόσωπον (prosopon) is also translated as countenance or face.
A countenance or face is different from a person, you know that right?
A countenance is a facial expression. This means that πρόσωπον (prosopon) can be translated as God having three facial expressions or three faces, instead of God as three persons.
This means that the Trinity can be described as: God is one being who exists with three faces or three facial expressions -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
This idea of a many faced God does have some scriptural support since we know from scripture of living creatures who do have many faces:
“These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim. Each had four faces and four wings” – (Ezekiel 10:20-21).
The Trinity as a many faced God has more scriptural support than a Trinity of a three person God.

Click to expand...

This is the lexical fallacy of
One does not translate words by eenie, meenie, mine, mo arbitrarily picking a definition which suits their assumptions/presuppositions. The definition of the Greek word "prosopon" covers 2 pages in the BAGD Greek lexicon. Here is the pertinent section.

Doveaman said:

Where in scripture does it say the "Son was in the beginning and the Son was God"?

Click to expand...

Revelation 22 is another passage that I can think of (although All4Christ mentioned the most obvious and straightforward in John 1:14):

The Bible said:

‘See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’

[...]
16 ‘It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.’

Click to expand...

Those that are questioning Jesus' deity.....I wonder if their belief system lines up with the statement below (and if it does---I'm totally fine with it). What I *don't* agree with is claiming this (what you're asserting) is an orthodox Christian belief system.

Can you guys relate to this (do you agree?):

Jesus was born a 'pure boy' (not God) to Mary as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God the Creator which follows the belief of the prophetic message in the Old Testament passage Isaiah 7:14 and referenced in the New Testament passages Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38.

To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing various ailments like blindness, raising the dead to life, casting out demons, etc.) all according to God's will.

Click to expand...

.....do you want to guess which "branch" of religion this is describing?

~Anastasia~ said:

It is not only the words of men ... the Holy Spirit was active in the process as well.

But then I'm not sure you'd believe what happened, so ...

But if the Councils were JUST men getting together and arguing, I'd have a lot less trust in them, so I understand your point of view. Kind of like here on CF ...

Click to expand...

See, you 'say' that the Holy Spirit was the inspiration of those you consider to be the 'church fathers' or those involved with the creation of 'doctrines' we discuss, but what PROOF do you have?

What's 'more' important: the doctrines of men, or the word of God as offered in the Bible?

And then there is this: do you believe that the Holy Spirit exists in the lives of believers 'today'?

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

See, you 'say' that the Holy Spirit was the inspiration of those you consider to be the 'church fathers' or those involved with the creation of 'doctrines' we discuss, but what PROOF do you have?

What's 'more' important: the doctrines of men, or the word of God as offered in the Bible?

And then there is this: do you believe that the Holy Spirit exists in the lives of believers 'today'?

Blessings,

MEC

Click to expand...

What proof do you have that the canon of scripture we have today is the authoritative canon, hence making it the Word of God?

Imagican--you seem to be seeking certainty in a realm that requires faith.

Imagican said:

See, you 'say' that the Holy Spirit was the inspiration of those you consider to be the 'church fathers' or those involved with the creation of 'doctrines' we discuss, but what PROOF do you have?

What's 'more' important: the doctrines of men, or the word of God as offered in the Bible?

And then there is this: do you believe that the Holy Spirit exists in the lives of believers 'today'?

Blessings,

MEC

Click to expand...

There is much more information available than I think you are aware of ... but I don't care to have it mocked, so I'm not going to quote it.

As I said, I believe the Holy Spirit was involved and continues to be involved with the ekklesia. That was, after all Christ's promise. And the Apostles directed us to find our truth there.

I am happy to discuss with anyone seriously interested. But as I said, I'm not willing to toss things about for mockery.

~Anastasia~ said:

The Word is Jesus Christ ... the Word became flesh.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Word became flesh/human, and that flesh/human was then given the name Jesus Christ:

"Take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins." -- (Matt 1:20-21).

The name Jesus was given to the Son after Mary gave birth to the Son, and after the Word became the Son.

The word Jesus means "God is our salvation".

The word Christ means "the anointed One of God".

The name Jesus Christ means "the anointed One of God for our salvation".

It would make no sense for the name "Jesus Christ" to have existed from eternity since human salvation was not required from eternity. Human salvation was required from the fall of Adam, and the name "Jesus Christ" only became relevant after the fall.

Who else "was God ... and became flesh"? And yet, He was both God, and WITH God.

Click to expand...

The Word was with God and the Word was God before He became Jesus the Son.

But just as with Scripture, when one thinks one sees that it is obviously contradictory, that is an indication that one's understanding is not yet complete.

Click to expand...

How can you believe in one Lord if the Son and the Holy Spirit are both called "the Lord" in the Nicene Creed.

Each man HAS/IS (partly) a spirit.

Click to expand...

Yes.

So tell me, is the spirit in man a person, or is it a power or force?

There is no "spirit of man" globally as an entity, though it can be expressed that way when one is talking about something like "worldliness" etc.

Click to expand...

It can also be expressed that way when talking about the spirit of Adam:

"Just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the Man from heaven." -- (1 Corinthians 15:49).

We all share in the 'global' spirit of Adam, just as we all shall share in the 'global' Spirit of Christ.

I think what you're bringing up, Doveaman, is the distinction between "Christ" (macrocosm) and "Jesus" (microcosm).

Doveaman said:

It would make no sense for the name "Jesus Christ" to exists from eternity since human salvation was not required from eternity. Human salvation was required from the fall of Adam.

Click to expand...

.....but God is all knowing. Do you think God was caught off guard by sin? I don't...these verses seem to support that idea:

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Ephesians 1:3-14).

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you (1 Peter 1:18-20).

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.~Colossians 1:15-17

From Jesus' own words (recorded in Revelation):

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.~Revelation 22:13

Doveaman said:

How can you believe in one Lord if the Son and the Holy Spirit are both called "the Lord" in the Nicene Creed.

Click to expand...

Because the 3 persons of the Trinity are ONE God.

mkgal1 said:

Because the 3 persons of the Trinity are ONE God.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid your explanation doesn't work.

Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus Christ.

The "one Lord" in the Nicene Creed is not referring to the ONE God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is referring to Jesus Christ alone.

It says "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ", and then it says "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord".

If "We" believe in "one Lord" who is Jesus Christ, this means the Holy Spirit cannot also be "the Lord" since "We" believe in "one Lord" who is Jesus Christ.

Your explanation only works if the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ who is the "one Lord".

However, I do think this is a contradiction on the part of the authors of the Nicene Creed.

mkgal1 said:

I think what you're bringing up, Doveaman, is the distinction between "Christ" (macrocosm) and "Jesus" (microcosm).

.....but God is all knowing. Do you think God was caught off guard by sin? I don't...these verses seem to support that idea:

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Ephesians 1:3-14).

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you (1 Peter 1:18-20).

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.~Colossians 1:15-17

From Jesus' own words (recorded in Revelation):

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.~Revelation 22:13

Click to expand...

Jesus is not talking about eternity here, since eternity has no beginning nor end.

Jesus is saying He is before all things and that all things begin with Him and end with Him.

All things do have a beginning and are therefore not eternal.