Rapture controversy

I have no interest in them.

Every time someone thinks they can nail down a particular date or timeline, it always ends up wrong. He will take us up when HIS time is right. So stay ready and focus on building the kingdom.

If I had to figure end time dates I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton....

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

I do not think any other has ever come closer!

/nvm

rockytopva said:

If I had to figure end time dates I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton....

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

I do not think any other has ever come closer!

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Actually, I believe this is a bit mistaken. What you're quoting there is applying to Newton having a missing element from his calculations. He couldn't determine a specific event from his computations and so here with the 2060 dating he was operating by conjecture starting at his latest "option" of a begin date from which to count the timing. Meaning, in his work he had different possible "start dates" for the begin count and here he chose to date "from the complete conquest of the three kings" and he did so to give the latest date possible, 2060, for the sole purpose "to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men" but not to be taken as a serious setting of timing; because his serious timing event he had already come to, but would not live to witness it in his time.

But we now have that missing event which Newton did not have. In his commentary Newton was certain that the "70 weeks" prophecy contained two timelines, and not just one: specifying the precise counting leading to both the first and second coming. It should be noted Newton did not believe in a "rapture" occurring prior to the second coming. Newton therefore bids his future readers to look for a single event that would begin the 49 year countdown to the second coming. That event was the date that Jerusalem would be "restored" to the Jews (thus depending on how one determines what "restored to the Jews" means; by Newton's interpretation, the second coming could occur anytime now, beginning last year, 2016)

Quoting Observations, chapter 10: This part of the prophecy being therefore not yet fulfilled, I shall not attempt a particular interpretation of it, but content myself with observing, that as the seventy and the sixty two weeks were Jewish weeks, ending with sabbatical years; so the seven weeks are the compass of the Jubilee, and begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee, and of the highest nature for which a Jubilee can be kept: and that since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but from some other kingdom friendly to them, and precede their return from captivity, and give occasion to it; and lastly, that this rebuilding of Jerusalem and the waste places of Judah is predicted in #Mic 7:11. #Am 9:11, 14. #Eze 36:33, 35, 36, 38. #Isa 54:3, 11, 12; 55:12; 61:4. 65:18, 21, 22. and Tobit 14:5. and that the return from captivity and coming of the Messiah and his kingdom are described in Daniel 7 Revelation 19 Acts 1 Matthew 24 Joel 3 Ezekiel 36, 37. Isaiah 60, 62. 63, 65, and 66: and many other places of scripture. The manner I know not. Let time be the Interpreter.

John Hyperspace said:

Actually, I believe this is a bit mistaken. What you're quoting there is applying to Newton having a missing element from his calculations. He couldn't determine a specific event from his computations and so here with the 2060 dating he was operating by conjecture starting at his latest "option" of a begin date from which to count the timing. Meaning, in his work he had three different possible "start dates" for the begin count and here he choose to date "from the complete conquest of the three kings" and he did so to give the latest date possible, 2060, for the sole purpose "to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men"

But we now have that crucial missing event date which Newton did not have. In his commentary Newton was certain that the "70 weeks" prophecy contained two timelines, and not just one: specifying the precise counting leading to both the first and second coming. It should be noted Newton did not believe in a "rapture" occurring prior to the second coming. Newton therefore bids his future readers to look for a single event that would begin the 49 year countdown to the second coming. That event was the date that Jerusalem would be "restored" to the Jews (thus depending on how one determines what "restored to the Jews" means; by Newton's interpretation, the second coming could occur anytime now, beginning last year, 2016)

Observations, chapter 10: This part of the prophecy being therefore not yet fulfilled, I shall not attempt a particular interpretation of it, but content myself with observing, that as the seventy and the sixty two weeks were Jewish weeks, ending with sabbatical years; so the seven weeks are the compass of the Jubilee, and begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee, and of the highest nature for which a Jubilee can be kept: and that since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but from some other kingdom friendly to the m, and precede their return from captivity, and give occasion to it; and lastly, that this rebuilding of Jerusalem and the waste places of Judah is predicted in #Mic 7:11. #Am 9:11, 14. #Eze 36:33, 35, 36, 38. #Isa 54:3, 11, 12; 55:12; 61:4. 65:18, 21, 22. and Tobit 14:5. and that the return from captivity and coming of the Messiah and his kingdom are described in Daniel 7 Revelation 19 Acts 1 Matthew 24 Joel 3 Ezekiel 36, 37. Isaiah 60, 62. 63, 65, and 66: and many other places of scripture. The manner I know not. Let time be the Interpreter.

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Of course I believe in prophecy we are all a bit mistaken! But we do our best! I am especially leery of those who do not believe they are a bit mistaken!

I can tell everyone when the Lord will return. Are you ready?

When He gets good and ready.

There is much controversy over the timing of the Second Coming, the timing of the Rapture, whether or not there will be a "Rapture" as such and so forth.

I prefer to keep it simple.

The Lord will return. "When" is not my problem.

The Lord will claim His own. The details of that is not my problem.

My only task, directed by God through Jesus, is to be at my appointed place of duty and doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Just like spiritual gifts, duties are sort of all similar yet very personal and specific. All Christian's duties include honoring God in all aspects of life and telling the good news of Jesus' salvation. You're on your own for the rest.

diane. said:

The issue of the timing of the Rapture has created deep divide within the body of Christ. I'm not sure that such a fantastic moment of divine orchestration was ever intended to divide the very 'body' it is designed to gather up.

Yes, I, of course, have my views on the Rapture; views that I stand by and feel there is substantial support for, but I would never break fellowship with one who expresses a view different from my own.

I think that the 'infighting' brings reproach to our Lord - something to be considered by all those who indulge in the dispute. The real focus of our attention should be on the greater issue and that is: 'Are we ready'? Will we be included among those to be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever?

If you have any interest in videos on the end times, check out this link: here

diane.

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the main problem people have is not the timing of the 'rapture' (and yes, that alone is a big problem), but what the 'rapture' is.

It doesn't mean 'magically whisked away'. It means being gathered after the fall of Babylon when God tells people to 'come out of her' Revelation 18:4-8. God is not going to whisk you up to heaven (unless you are vaporized in a nuclear blast). You are going to have to do the work of coming out of Babylon yourself.

tranquil said:

the main problem people have is not the timing of the 'rapture' (and yes, that alone is a big problem), but what the 'rapture' is.

It doesn't mean 'magically whisked away'. It means being gathered after the fall of Babylon when God tells people to 'come out of her' Revelation 18:4-8. God is not going to whisk you up to heaven (unless you are vaporized in a nuclear blast). You are going to have to do the work of coming out of Babylon yourself.

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That's a huge problem if you are right. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where it says we shall be caught up in the air. I don't plan to debate on this subject, but am eager to read your reply.
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Just one note on the timing of the rapture. The reason I post this is because I have seen that some people miss this, so, for your edification, please consider.... 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 ...pay close attention to the transition of time between verses 7 & 8. It says; "He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,". Notice that the lawless one (antichrist) is not revealed until after the [Holy Spirit within] believers has been taken out of the way.
---
I too agree that we ought to best be about the kingdom of God while there is yet time here. To be too concerned with the "when" of the rapture is out of balance. Of course, Matthew 24:33 says we will "know that it's near, even at the doors" (rapture and second coming), but to "set dates" is not going to work. Of course, if you set the date for every day, then eventually you will be right. But it's not like when you get to Heaven you will have bragging rights, saying, "Hey everybody, I had it all figured out". That will not happen. However, we can, and should, do serious study of end times prophecy and make our conclusions, share with others what we have found, but never be dogmatic about it, or rude if someone doesn't quite see it the way we do. Remember there is always a certain margin for human error, as has already been shown regarding Isaac Newton and his not knowing the date for the rebirth of Israel. May 14th 1948 is critical to understanding end times prophecy.

I do not think any other has ever come closer![/QUOTE]

rockytopva said:

This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

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Yeppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Great response.
Never knew until recently how some will fight, discredit, and slander those with a different view.
satan must be laughing at how easily he can divide the body of Christ with such non-consequential topics and how he doesn't have to break a sweat thinking up any original tactics. Same ole same ole.

I believe the rapture is imminent . It can happen before I finish writing this post. It probably won't, but imho it could. I do not argue with others about the timing. That makes little sense. I just want to be ready when it does happen.

Matthew-59 said:

That's a huge problem if you are right. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where it says we shall be caught up in the air. I don't plan to debate on this subject, but am eager to read your reply.
---
Just one note on the timing of the rapture. The reason I post this is because I have seen that some people miss this, so, for your edification, please consider.... 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 ...pay close attention to the transition of time between verses 7 & 8. It says; "He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,". Notice that the lawless one (antichrist) is not revealed until after the [Holy Spirit within] believers has been taken out of the way.
---
I too agree that we ought to best be about the kingdom of God while there is yet time here. To be too concerned with the "when" of the rapture is out of balance. Of course, Matthew 24:33 says we will "know that it's near, even at the doors" (rapture and second coming), but to "set dates" is not going to work. Of course, if you set the date for every day, then eventually you will be right. But it's not like when you get to Heaven you will have bragging rights, saying, "Hey everybody, I had it all figured out". That will not happen. However, we can, and should, do serious study of end times prophecy and make our conclusions, share with others what we have found, but never be dogmatic about it, or rude if someone doesn't quite see it the way we do. Remember there is always a certain margin for human error, as has already been shown regarding Isaac Newton and his not knowing the date for the rebirth of Israel. May 14th 1948 is critical to understanding end times prophecy.

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How is it a problem? When Paul uses that phrase, do you know what he is referencing? (think of the fact that Paul is a Jew)

He's referencing Exodus 19 where God frees the Hebrews and Matthew 24:

is God really bearing the Hebrews on literal eagle wings in this passage? ... I'll wait ...

No, God is not really transporting the Hebrews via eagles to God and the promised land. It's a metaphor. The same one Paul is using in a very specific context: God is creating a holy nation

What's the 'covenant'? The Mosaic covenant, aka the 'song of Moses'. This is the entire foundation of Daniel 9 (explicitly referencing the Mosaic covenant) (the middle of the 7 years refers to this) (where people get the notion of a '7 year trib'). This is explicitly called the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 31 & 32. This is the same song of Moses referenced in Revelation 15:1-4 when the plagues/ bowls of wrath are poured out...

It isn't complicated at all, but people's insistence on a magical whisked away 'rapture' messes everything up.

When Jesus says

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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the 'angels' in Greek here is 'angelos' which means 'messenger'. It means both a natural messenger and a supernatural messenger (what we think of as 'angels'). If you doubt it, read Revelation 14 because that is making Matthew 24:29-31 very explicit: there are the 'supernatural' angels announcing the fall of Babylon and warning not to take the mark of the beast (why do they warn people? because no Christian has been 'whisked away' - the angels are addressing the warnings to ... Christians)

and there are the 'natural' messengers - the 144,000. At the sound of the trumpet the 'natural' messengers are sent out... see Revelation 7 here: the 144,000 are sealed... before the trumpets are announced... because the 144,000 are the messengers that go out to gather Christians at the 1st trumpet. see Matt 24:31 above

And all of this is predicated on understanding what a 'rapture' is.

If you are a fan of the 'harpazo' school of thought, maybe this be up your alley:
Matthew 12

Remember how Jesus said that he would come as a thief? (Revelation 16:5) Jesus is saying that He will plunder the 'strong man'. That word 'plunder' in verse 29 is 'harpazo' Matthew 12 Interlinear Bible Jesus is going to 'plunder'/ steal the faithful after the fall of Babylon. the faithful will leave Babylon and be gathered by the 144,000 and the angels.

The mark of the beast is right there also, the blasphemy against the holy spirit. also, there is Jesus, gathering in verse 30.

Again, this passage deals with the 'timing' of the rapture also: it happens after the fall of Babylon.

sequence:

• fall of Babylon (aka 'binding the strong man')
  
• Babylon's mortal head wound heals
• mark of the beast (blasphemy against the holy spirit)
  
• faithful gathered in the wilderness (by the 'messengers' angels and the 144,000)

/nvm

Re the Rapture Controversy:
As there is nowhere stated in the Bible that God intends to take His people to heaven in the last days, this is a non issue; such an idea isn't Written, therefore it won't happen.
Jesus refutes the idea of anyone going to heaven; John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, Revelation 5:10
We have tasks to do here, escapism is just a fanciful dream.

diane. said:

When I made mention of the 'timing' of the Rapture, I did not have in mind, what I consider to be ridiculous disputes over actual calendar dates, but rather the timing of the event itself, meaning pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post trib positions. There is great hostility, one against the other, with regard to one's personal view or doctrinal stand on the matter.

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I have to take issue with what you are implying that doctrine does not matter.
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So Jesus says that there will be other doctrines other than the true doctrine. Satan is behind all false doctrine, so if you do not have all the true doctrine then you are following false doctrine presented by satan. It is very important that we follow the true doctrines of Jesus. The doctrines of pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post trib can not all be true doctrine three of the four you listed have to be false doctrine.

Remember we can not serve two masters either the doctrine of Jesus or the doctrine of the father of lies you must choose which of the four is the true doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (when this was written the only scriptures were what we call the old testament)

Doctrine matters

Original Happy Camper said:

The doctrines of pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post trib can not all be true doctrine three of the four you listed have to be false doctrine.

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At the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, He sends out His angels to gather those who are alive and remain. 1 Thessalonians 5:17, Matthew 24:31
They are gathered to where He is; in Jerusalem.
So the 'post-trib' doctrine is the nearest to the truth, as long as it is understood that this gathering is not to heaven as people imagine, but to join our King in His earthly reign, as Revelation 5:9-10 says.

diane. said:

Why were 5 of the 10 virgins excluded from the wedding banquet, if not for the fact that they were not ready? Take notice: the bridegroom did not wait for them either.
diane.

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I believe the meaning of that parable is that the 5 who went with Jesus to the wedding had the indwelling of The Holy Spirit.
The 5 left behind did not.

Grafted In said:

I believe the meaning of that parable is that the 5 who went with Jesus to the wedding had the indwelling of The Holy Spirit.
The 5 left behind did not.

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It seems they ALL had oil for their lamps, but some had EXTRA oil.

I think the extra oil is the oil of the Holy Spirit UPON, as shown in Acts 2:4, Acts 8, Acts 10, And Acts 19.

diane. said:

When I made mention of the 'timing' of the Rapture, I did not have in mind, what I consider to be ridiculous disputes over actual calendar dates, but rather the timing of the event itself, meaning pre, mid, pre-wrath, or post trib positions. There is great hostility, one against the other, with regard to one's personal view or doctrinal stand on the matter.

I'm sorry that the point of my comment may have been missed by a few - Readiness is of the utmost importance! Why were 5 of the 10 virgins excluded from the wedding banquet, if not for the fact that they were not ready? Take notice: the bridegroom did not wait for them either.

diane.

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Brilliant, Diane! They were not ready. Is it even remotely possible that a posttribber or a prewrather would be ready when Jesus comes pretrib? Will they be "watching" for Jesus, or for something else?