Learning to decipher between beliefs and indoctrination

Deadworm said:

The Bible teaches that there is both general revelation to pagan humanity and special revelation to Jews and Christians. The Judaeo-Christian faith has several roots in paganism. Here are just 3 examples:

(1) The practice of Holy Communion has roots in Greek mystery religions like the cult of Mithra and Dionysos, which also feature the consumption of symbolic food and drink for mystic participation in the dying and rising god.

To ply their carpentry trade, Joseph and Jesus would have marketed their wares at nearby Sepphoris, which had a population of about 25,000 in contrast to Nazareth's 300-400. Near the Sepphoris marketplace is a villa dedicated to the cult of Dionysos, which teaches the belief that this god changes water into wine. Jesus' miracle in John 2:1-11 is rich in Eucharistic symbolism, but it is also intended to help Jesus' teaching compete with the Dionysos mystery cult.

(2) The Pythia (female prophetess) at Apollo oracle shrines spoke in tongues and this practice helped establish glossolalia as one of the gifts of the Spirit. At Delphi, a male prophet would then "interpret" the Pythia's utterAnces.

(3) The emperor cult required subjects to acclaim Ceasar as "Savior" and "Lord," and these terms were borrowed to help establish Christ in these roles.

Click to expand...

Note that, on item no. 2, it is vigorously disputed by many, including myself, that the practice of speaking in tongues was akin to glossolalia; in the event this practice was clearly extinct by the Council of Nicea.

On item 1, this is inaccurate, and item 3 on the other hand could be said about any military or civil leader anywhere who managed to deliver a population from danger (for example, by breaking a siege), or indeed by any ruler, period. "Lord" is one of the most generic terms available for a ruler.

Paul: "Note that, on item no. 2, it is vigorously disputed by many, including myself, that the practice of speaking in tongues was akin to glossolalia;"

Duh, the word "glossolalia" is a combination of 2 Greek words that literally mean "speaking in tongues." You obviously don't know Greek. Paul makes it clear that glossolalia can express both human and nonhuman language (1 Corinthians 13:1). Apart from that, the crucial point is that in the ecstatic speech of both pagan Greek oracles and Pauline churches the jibberish needs to be interpreted! Hence, the pagan origin of this practice is well established.

Pau: "in the event this practice was clearly extinct by the Council of Nicea."

Even if that were true, quenching the Spirit does not negate the reality of the Holy Spirit and His spiritual gifts. But it is not true. On the history of speaking in tongues, read:

Talking Pentecostalism: The history of tongues

Paul: "On item 1, this is inaccurate,"

Your vague pontification here is countered by the scholarly consensus, which finds the closest parallels to this Christian sacrament in pagan mystery religions rather than in Jewish practice. Through the sacred meal, mystery religions believed that their adherents participated in the death of the dying and rising god.

Paul: "and item 3 on the other hand could be said about any military or civil leader anywhere who managed to deliver a population from danger."

You miss the point. You are unable to provide a single example in which the terms "savior," Lord," and "Gospel" are applied to anyone in late antquity other than Jesus and the Roman emperor. The Greek terms "soter" (savior) and "kurios" (Lord) are combined as emperor descriptives in the Roman ruler cult and, more importantly are linked with the use of "euagglelion" (Gospel) in the case of Augustus. The modern scholarly consensus identifies this emperor cult usage as the lainguistic background of the Christian adoption of these terms.

Deadworm said:

Your vague pontification here is countered by the scholarly consensus, which finds the closest parallels to this Christian sacrament in pagan mystery religions rather than in Jewish practice. Through the sacred meal, mystery religions believed that their adherents participated in the death of the dying and rising god.

Click to expand...

This is of course inaccurate, as reading up on the actual practices of Mithraism, and then comparing them to our Eucharist, would reveal. There are a great number of urban legends floating around about Mithraism which are alas not grounded in the reality. The Mithraic mysteries were very much in line with other Pagan liturgical rites of that era, and quite distinct from the Eucharist as instituted in the early church.

Deadworm said:

Paul: "Note that, on item no. 2, it is vigorously disputed by many, including myself, that the practice of speaking in tongues was akin to glossolalia;"

Duh, the word "glossolalia" is a combination of 2 Greek words that literally mean "speaking in tongues." You obviously don't know Greek. Paul makes it clear that glossolalia can express both human and nonhuman language (1 Corinthians 13:1). Apart from that, the crucial point is that in the ecstatic speech of both pagan Greek oracles and Pauline churches the jibberish needs to be interpreted! Hence, the pagan origin of this practice is well established.

Click to expand...

There is nothing to suggest that the tongues spoken of, where the gift was genuine, were gibberish; in the sense I am using Glossolalia, I am referring to the modern Pentecostal practice, and also to the ecstatic babbling characteristic of certain ancient religions, and probably the Montanists of which Tertullian was a member.

ViaCrucis said:

That's certain a strange doctrine, it's also one that I don't know any major Christian denomination teaches. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc would all consider such a teaching as completely bonkers. Of course we still have sin, we're sinners; and of course we are condemned in our sin by the Law; here's the difference however: We don't consider ourselves righteous before God on account of our obedience to either the Torah or God's moral law; we are righteous because of Jesus Christ, by the mercy of God.



You're right, that is a completely wrong way of looking at the Torah. Scripture never divides the Torah into those categories: there is only Torah. And here's the thing: the Torah was only given to the Jews at Sinai. Torah doesn't apply to anyone who is not a circumcised child of Jacob, either by descent or conversion. And yet God still held the nations accountable for their actions, so clearly Torah isn't the only form in which God's commandments are expressed. Torah did not exist until hundreds of years after Abraham, and yet for the wickedness of Sodom God destroyed the city. So clearly there are universal expectations for man, not just what is revealed in Torah.

It is neither by Torah or works of the flesh that we are justified; we are justified freely by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, who for us sinners became flesh, dwelt among us, suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried, rose again, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, in glory, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and of His reign there shall be no end. Life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I also wanted to ask you on this post. Once we are saved from our sin throuh Yeshua do we now walk in obidience to God's instuctions according to your doctrine?

Aaron Rich said:

Wow! This has been a fascinating learning opportunity!

As you may have noticed, I stepped back and let the conversation take it's course. Both because I wanted to allow people to express their thoughts and because I didn't have another day off.

I know some of you took offense to the topic, but that truly wasn't the purpose of my post. This was purely a learning opportunity and a way to challenge my own thoughts to help me grow. I hope it did the same to you. Don't ever stop seeking the truth as you may not have it all yet.

I disagree with many of the things you all have said and obviously you disagree with much of what I've said. It's nothing to get angry about, it's all for growth in our collective faith. The full truth will not be revealed until His return.

I want you all to know that your comments have been a tremendous blessing for me regardless of whether or not I agree. This has certainly become an active topic! I didn't expect it to become a featured one! So thank you for that.

I appreciate the growth opportunity you have offered me and your comments have given me a treasure trove of things to ponder and study - my two favorite pastimes!

Blessings and peace to you all! I plan to step off and pursue my studies further. I will keep checking back to see other comments thought!

Click to expand...

I am thankful that you posted this it took a lot of guts. It is really difficult to do and teach God's commandments in this upside down world of confusion. I raise my glass to all of the saints that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua!

Paul Yohannan said:

There is nothing to suggest that the tongues spoken of, where the gift was genuine, were gibberish; in the sense I am using Glossolalia, I am referring to the modern Pentecostal practice, and also to the ecstatic babbling characteristic of certain ancient religions, and probably the Montanists of which Tertullian was a member.

Click to expand...

You apparently responded without reading the article I posted for you. Among other references, you ignore Irenaeus and the fact that Tertullian is one of the greatest and most prolific orthodox authors. Your false distinction between "speaking in tongues" and "glossolalia" vitiates the legitimacy of your claims. In any case, the patristic cases in themselves decisively refute cessationism. Both for the Greek oracle at Delphi and in Paul (Romans 8:26, "tongues" can be described from the point of view of apparent jibberish (Greek: "stenagmoi alaletoi" and its Latin equivalent), the status of which is upgraded by the "interpretation." The fact that the "tongues" can express angelic language removes the necessity of finding a corresponding earthly language. But in fact, Pentecostals can point to awesome examples of glossolalia expressing unknown human language to great edifying effect.

I note that you apparently have no answer to the examples I give from the emperor cult and pagan mystery religions. In fact, the whole ancient Jewish sacrifice system can be considered an adaptation of widespread pagan practice. God's revelation is generally adapted to contemporary cultural practices and styles of speech so that the Jews and later the Jewish Christians could find it acceptable as authentic revelation that speaks powerfully to them in their cultural milieu.

1John2:4 said:

Once we are saved from our sin throuh Yeshua do we now walk in obidience to God's instuctions according to your doctrine?

Click to expand...

Lutheranism tends to speak of three uses of the Law:

"Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life," - Epitome of the Formula of Concord, VI.1

So yes, God's righteous and moral commandments exist to guide the life of the believer in relation to how he or she acts in the world; but this must be always again return to the first and second uses; that the Law reveals that we are sinners, and it condemns us in our sin; and therefore the Law drives men to sorrow over sin and therefore repentance. There is no righteousness in our own efforts, there is only the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us as grace, through faith, according to the work of Jesus Christ; thus the Christian is simul iustus et peccator: at once both saint and sinner; a saint, justified, by the grace of God alone and the righteousness of Christ alone; and a sinner by his or her own mortal efforts.

Thus we have hope only in the Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and raised, coming again in glory, and the hope of the life everlasting, the resurrection of the body, and the world to come when God makes all things new.

This life is not for glory, but rather this life is a cross, a cross carried as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Aaron Rich said:

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Click to expand...

Maybe I am way off here and I trust that I will know fairly soon, but I think this statement is utterly preposterous.

Just knowing the language of the Bible, there is I believe Hebrew (OT), some Aramaic (some NT) and a lot of Greek (most NT), so if your criteria right off the bat is what is "non-Hebraic" in our faith, Christianity then you have cut the legs off Christianity before anything has even been allowed to start.

Secondly, all the apostles were Jews as was Jesus Himself, so it is not like Jesus went out and got a bunch of Gentiles from the get-go to become His apostles who had no idea what Judaism was even like. No, no way. Jesus and His apostles and His parents and John the Baptist and the entire community Jesus lived in His entire life was Jewish, so I unless I am totally clueless here do not understand why you are classifying the New Testament, written by all Jews, but maybe Luke as being 'non-Hebraic'. I do not see it at all.

If anything I would think that all of them knew customs of Judaism so very well. Both Mary as well as Elizabeth came from two of the most ardent Jewish families from the line of David, as did Joseph, Jesus' earthly father. The Bible says that Mary was among the most faithful of the women of that time chosen as was John's (JtB) family. If anything the New Testament is overwhelmingly Jewish. And the only apostle that went to the Gentiles in any real capacity was Paul, but Paul was a former Pharisee, so how did Paul/Saul not know the in's and out's of Judaism is beyond me. All the others stayed in the Jewish community which is probably why Paul had more issues in that sense, trying to incorporate Gentiles into Christ for salvation.

So what part or parts of the New Testament are even written by people who are not in the Jewish community fully being Jewish? And how could something so completely Jewish as the life and writings of all Jewish apostles be non-Hebraic? And how do we even know that anything the Judaic people have is any better than the Bible in any way? And why does Judaism have so many outside sources and resources that are non-Biblical in the Old Testament sense?

Can someone point me to what the thread is about and if I am wrong here?

Maybe some practices within Christian worship or something could become contaminated, but has God's Word changed in 2,000 years? And if we are reading and following God's Word how can we be pagan?

I doubt more Judaism because they have so many books, oral Torah, written Torah and so many things that are not even in the Bible. So how can we then be pagans following ONLY God's Word?

Aaron Rich said:

Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

Click to expand...

it depends on what you mean by "judaism"?, it is evident from what is written in the Gospels that Jesus Christ seemed very innovative for most people in His time, moreover, with the fact that He saved people very effectively, removing the devilish spirits from the affected/possessed ones, healing the sick of all diseases/disorders/disabilities, resurrecting dead, and teaching the concerned ones to believe properly - everything with full and permanent effect, and there was no relapse

Matthew 8:27 "The men were amazed, and said, What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?",

Matthew 9:32-33 "a mute, demon-possessed man was brought to Him. After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.",

Matthew 10:1 "Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.",

Matthew 15:31 "the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.",

Mark 1:22 "They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.",

Mark 6:2 "When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?",

Mark 7:37 "They were utterly astonished, saying, He has done all things well; He makes even the deaf to hear and the mute to speak.",

Luke 9:43 "everyone was marveling at all that He was doing"

Aaron Rich said:

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

Click to expand...

the primary source of perfect truth is the true God Himself, or what can we understand from the Scriptures if He doesn't reveal their meaning to us, which is why it is written that the righteous man will live by faith (Romans 1:17), as well as that the letter kills, while the Holy Spirit gives life (Romans 2:29, 2 Corinthians 3:5-6)

Aaron Rich said:

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

Click to expand...

i know even from experience that even all biblical versions are not enough to reveal the perfect meaning of the scripture, even the biblical hebrew and greek lexicon (such as that of james strong) is not enough, because there are many biblical(scriptural) words and phrases with specific spiritual meanings that cannot be understood only by reading - there is definitely a need of revelation from the true God

Aaron Rich said:

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

Click to expand...

judaism has been full of ineffective beliefs and practices even since the time before Jesus came 2 millennia ago, which He denounced as in the following case:

Mark 10:2-9 "Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. And He answered and said to them, What did Moses command you? They said, Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away. But Jesus said to them, Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

they thought that the women and the sex are supposedly an obstacle to the spiritual growth of themselves, which is why they made a practice of divorcing their wives and sending them away

Aaron Rich said:

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.

Click to expand...

i am also not hasty to condemn/doom people to go into perdition, but in fact the heretical and idolatrous beliefs and practices lead to hell, the greatest sin presented in the Bible is the spiritual/religious tradition and activity that is based on the kingdom of satan/beast, it is written that every worshiper that worships the "beast" will suffer for ever and ever (Revelation 14:8-11), and that the greatest punishment is prepared for the false prophets (Revelation 19:20)

on the whole i don't think that anything ineffective or less effective as to the overall salvation in the true Lord God is worth it more than what is better and best for it, even if it is some form of judaism, and the fact that what is more and most effective as to overall salvation in God and Jesus is better than what is less and least effective for it indicates that it doesn't pay to choose what is worse and worst for the souls

Blessings

ViaCrucis said:

o yes, God's righteous and moral commandments exist to guide the life of the believer in

Click to expand...

What are the moral Commandments?

ViaCrucis said:

Lutheranism tends to speak of three uses of the Law:

"Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life," - Epitome of the Formula of Concord, VI.1

So yes, God's righteous and moral commandments exist to guide the life of the believer in relation to how he or she acts in the world; but this must be always again return to the first and second uses; that the Law reveals that we are sinners, and it condemns us in our sin; and therefore the Law drives men to sorrow over sin and therefore repentance. There is no righteousness in our own efforts, there is only the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us as grace, through faith, according to the work of Jesus Christ; thus the Christian is simul iustus et peccator: at once both saint and sinner; a saint, justified, by the grace of God alone and the righteousness of Christ alone; and a sinner by his or her own mortal efforts.

Thus we have hope only in the Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and raised, coming again in glory, and the hope of the life everlasting, the resurrection of the body, and the world to come when God makes all things new.

This life is not for glory, but rather this life is a cross, a cross carried as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

I am not sure if you answered my question. What do you do once you repent and are saved from your sin ? Do you walk according to God's instructions? Do you keep or trample His law once you are saved from your transgression?

Aaron Rich said:

The concept of “hell” in the “New Testament” isn’t actually there.

Click to expand...

You're right.

What IS there, is Gehenna (which is Jewish purgatory, not Christian (really Scandinavian) Hell (hel). There is also the Lake of Fire after final judgment. And there is black Tartarus, and the black chasm that separates Gehenna from Gan Eden (and the Bosom of Abraham) in Sheol.

The resurrection of the flesh leading to final judgment, are not Jewish and are not in the Jewish Scriptures. Gehenna itself is spoken of by a Jew - Jesus - and was part of the Jewish belief (of the Pharisees, not the Sadduccees) of the time of Jesus - but the concept never appears in any of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Jesus revealed vast new things that were never revealed to the Jews at all. It is not true that everything in Christianity that isn't in Judaism is pagan. In fact, the "Good News" of Christian revelation, that we have life after death leading to resurrection, final judgment, and live eternally with God in his city - or are killed again in the Lake of Fire - is only revealed in the Christian Scriptures. It's utterly absent from God's revelation to the Jews.

1John2:4 said:

What are the moral Commandments?

Click to expand...

E.g. The Sermon on the Mount, the Greatest Commandment, what we find commanded of Christians in the New Testament.

The Torah includes commandments such as "do not murder", but murder was sinful long before Torah was given--it was a sin for Cain to murder Abel, for example. The Torah was not given as a guide for mankind, but as a specific set of instructions for the nation of Israel and the covenant made with them at Mt. Sinai; that doesn't mean that there is no law for those who aren't the covenant children of Jacob, right remains right and wrong remains wrong, Torah or no Torah.

Christ often goes well beyond the Torah, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' but I say do not resist an evil person, if someone strikes you on the one cheek, turn and offer the other also." Turning the cheek isn't Torah, Torah provides reciprocal justice--if one injures you, then through the legal proceedings of the court one can receive just compensation--an eye for an eye; but Christ tells His followers to abide by an even higher commandment, not to seek after reciprocal justice but instead to show mercy and forgiveness, the higher calling and commandment, "Be perfect, even as your Father is perfect" (Matthew's version) or also, "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful" (Luke's version).

There is a higher calling, an even higher law than Torah--the command of Jesus Christ to be perfect and merciful even as God is perfect and merciful, to love our neighbor as ourself (without condition), to do good to all, to give and expect nothing in return, to respond in perfect, selfless love toward all--even those who would wish or do us harm. That is the higher, more noble command and calling from Christ our God; a harder law, a harder commandment.

-CryptoLutheran

SolomonVII said:

I would be in basic agreement with this. The axiom is that the NT reveals what the OT conceals. Jesus himself says that he does not come to change the law, but to fulfill it.
Dissident Catholic theologian states that Judaism and Christianity, properly understood, are one and the same religion.

It is tribalism that seeks out differences where none exist in the essentials of the faith.

Click to expand...

what is a dissident Catholic theologian? Is this a noun, verb or what? Seems if this were are real person you would put a name to it? Yes? Seems very odd to me. Very odd.

1John2:4 said:

I am not sure if you answered my question. What do you do once you repent and are saved from your sin ? Do you walk according to God's instructions? Do you keep or trample His law once you are saved from your transgression?

Click to expand...

I die daily in repentance, drowning the old man in remembrance of my baptism, hoping in Christ. I look forward to the mercy that is in Jesus, I seek to love my neighbor as I am commanded--and when I falter and fail (which I will do for I remain a wretch and a sinner) I confess my sins in the confidence that "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins"; clinging not to myself and my ability to do right, but to the grace of God in Christ, hoping in Christ. Looking only to the cross to keep me and hold me.

Do I walk in accordance with God's commandments? I try, but I fail. So I repent, and then I try again--and I fail. That is the Christian life--the failure of our flesh and the strength of God's grace, hoping not in our ability but instead hoping in Jesus. Turning not to our pride and vanity, but to Christ our Savior.

Ever being vigilant against the Opinio Legis--the Opinion of the Law--which says that I can be righteous if I just try hard enough; one who believes this does not believe in God's law, but is lawless and wicked, for the one who believes in God's law confesses that they are a sinner, and has sorrow over their sin. The one who believes in their righteousness has no repentance, they show no remorse over sin, but are haughty and proud and no good can come of it. To believe one can be righteous on their own, to be just in accordance with the law, is the way of the flesh, in rebellion against God, and to trample down the cross of Jesus Christ in lawless contempt of His mercy. Pelagianism is heresy, and always will be heresy.

-CryptoLutheran

Aaron Rich said:

My dear friend you definitely don't understand. The sacrificial system is not allowed under any circumstance without legal access to the Temple Mount and really the preference is with the temple. So all joking aside, we're barred from offering a sacrifice. This would apply to all Torah that requires the temple and official priesthood. Good news though! There's still some 90+ teachings that are expected of us regardless of the temple system!

If you really want something confusing, that doesn't make any sense to me personally, read through Ezekiel and Isaiah. It's quite clear the sacrificial system will be active during the Millennial Kingdom - which, oh by the way, is going to be on Earth not in Heaven. That threw me for a loop!

It really gets to be confusing when we read these things rather than listen to a Pastor teach them - oh well, milk to meat I suppose.

Click to expand...

One piece of advice I want to give you is just a suggestion but I want to share it with you because I think it may do you some real good in the future.

If you are unsure of a topic or if your opinion is right on the forum, state your opinion in the form of a question. When you state something in the form of a question you indicate that you are looking for feedback on that position and that is a position that you are unsure of.

On the other hand, when you state your position as if it is in fact true (as you have stated many things so far in this thread) then others are going to find much more fault with an incorrect position because you state as a fact what is not true and not a fact.

So if I would say something like

"Christianity is a pagan religion because it puts steeples on it's buildings"

if that is found not true, people will not be very nice.

But instead if you say something like

"Has anyone ever heard that some people refer to Christianity as a pagan religion because it put's steeples on it's buildings?"

See the difference?

One is stated as a fact, the other is asking if something is a fact. Always ask questions if you are not sure. Someone will come along and correct you if you are wrong and a question will not make them hostile to you where a fact if they get offended, will.

blessings.

One other thing that you might find helpful.

In the upper right corner of each post there are a few numbers.

One is the number of messages and right below it is the number of likes. Very early on you made a very rude comment to @ViaCrucis about one of his comments, what you should know is that the number of messages someone has is there number of posts on the forum and below that the number of likes is how many people agreed with that person posts.

If a person, such as @ViaCrucis has a very high number of messages AND a very high number of likes than you should really tread a little lighter on offending them because many people agree with them or they would not have such a high number of messages or likes.

I might apologize to him if I were you. That is what Jesus would do.

ViaCrucis said:

E.g. The Sermon on the Mount, the Greatest Commandment, what we find commanded of Christians in the New Testament.

The Torah includes commandments such as "do not murder", but murder was sinful long before Torah was given--it was a sin for Cain to murder Abel, for example. The Torah was not given as a guide for mankind, but as a specific set of instructions for the nation of Israel and the covenant made with them at Mt. Sinai; that doesn't mean that there is no law for those who aren't the covenant children of Jacob, right remains right and wrong remains wrong, Torah or no Torah.

Christ often goes well beyond the Torah, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' but I say do not resist an evil person, if someone strikes you on the one cheek, turn and offer the other also." Turning the cheek isn't Torah, Torah provides reciprocal justice--if one injures you, then through the legal proceedings of the court one can receive just compensation--an eye for an eye; but Christ tells His followers to abide by an even higher commandment, not to seek after reciprocal justice but instead to show mercy and forgiveness, the higher calling and commandment, "Be perfect, even as your Father is perfect" (Matthew's version) or also, "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful" (Luke's version).

There is a higher calling, an even higher law than Torah--the command of Jesus Christ to be perfect and merciful even as God is perfect and merciful, to love our neighbor as ourself (without condition), to do good to all, to give and expect nothing in return, to respond in perfect, selfless love toward all--even those who would wish or do us harm. That is the higher, more noble command and calling from Christ our God; a harder law, a harder commandment.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

On the sermon on the mount He stated He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fullfill and anyone who breaks and teaches others to break and the law and prophets will be least, and those who teach them will be great? Did He not also say on the sermon on the mount that not one Stoke of a pen will pass by the law until heaven and earth pass away and All is accomplished? Last time I checked heaven and earth are still here and Yeshua has not returned to accomplish the rest of the phopecy so not one jot or tittle should be removed from the law or the prophes, that includes His Shabbat.

The eye for an eye means let the punishment fit the crime. If you will also notice when reading the sermon on the mount he stated "you heard it was said" this was the misconceptions against His Fathers Words, He was at odds with. When He says "it is written" He is proclaiming His Fathers commands. You say it is lutacris when I sarcastically stated people devided up the law but is that not what you just did? Yeshua did not devide up any laws on the sermon on the mount He wrote about misconceptions of the written word and expounded upon how one should keep it with one's heart such as adultery in ones heart. Like he said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law.