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Please show me the traditions of both of them within God's Word and I will be silent.
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Spoken words or Traditions used to make or confirm Scripture vs. RCC traditions (after the Bible).
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Please show me the traditions of both of them within God's Word and I will be silent.
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Thursday
Well-Known Member
Your opinion is not truth. Jesus started a Church so we wouldn't have people like you teaching multiple contradictory messages. Can't you see that this is the reason that there are thousands of denominations claiming to be based on God's word, yet they disagree about central matters of the faith?
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Erose
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Perhaps you should spend some time reading passages in context to what was being written instead of taking a verse out of Scripture all by itself and interpreting it as you see fit. Read the whole chapter, and it becomes obvious that how you are attempting to interpret that passage is waaaaayyyy off base.
Actually not really. Scripture contains God's commands and commandments, but not all of Scripture is God's commands or commandments. Scripture is a whole lot more complex than that.
Okay, but what does that mean in context? Is St. Peter proclaiming them as Sacred Scripture? If so which ones? I doubt St. Paul had written all of his epistles before St. Peter wrote this one, or at least there is no evidence of such. Are the Epistles written after Peter's proclamation not Scripture? Does Paul claim that he is writing a Sacred Writing in any of his epistles? No he doesn't. We know that Paul wrote other epistles, so why weren't they considered Sacred?
Again you are applying your interpretation to God's Word, ala your own sacred tradition. Go figure. You are doing exactly what you are attacking others of doing. What is that a definition of?
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Please, do not personally attack me. Ad Hominems do not help to prove your case but they only hinder it.
Anyways, in 1 John 2:19, John is talking about those gnostic believers who fell away from the faith who were trying to seduce the brethren (1 John 2:26). These gnostics believed in an Antinomian type gospel because John was warning the brethren that if we say we have no sin (in the sense that sin does not exist for us), then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). Today, Christian Scientists believe sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them. Also, the Once Saved Always Saved crowd believes that they can sin physically, but sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level because all their future sins are forgiven on the cross in Jesus somehow. Yet, 1 John 1:7 says we have to walk in the light as he is in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
Thursday said:
I can say the same thing. But who would be correct in saying it?
What truth in Scripture on our lives woud determine such a thing?
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My views are based on God's Word.
Oh, and God's people are the church.
They are not necessarily in a building called .... "a church."
I am also not teaching any contradictions.
You have yet to explain the passages or verses and points I brought up.
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You are basically shaking your head and disagreeing. But you are not giving me any context within the Bible as to why you are disagreeing.
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I cannot answer that. I am not allowed to judge your church here on the forums. I can only say that I disagree with your beliefs and that they are not Biblical.
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Wolf_Says
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Alright, well since you have decided to respond to me, I guess I will do so in kind, though you seem very good a twisting words or pulling assumptions out of thin air.
Once again, there is nothing that the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church teaches that goes against the bible.
Let me say this as plainly as I can. Salvation is found through Jesus, not Mary. Period, as Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, is intertwined in our Salvation because without Mary, Jesus as we know Him, would not have become man. It's really simple.
I never said that Mary dispenses anything from Jesus, where did you come up with that?? What I said was that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and that Jesus performed His first miracle on behalf of His mother. Mary is only human, correct, but she is also our greatest boast as a race. God honors Mary in how she was greeted by the angle. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.", Jesus gave Mary to us (through John) while he was dying on the cross.
There have been plenty of confirmed sightings of Mary, the most recent I believe being Fatima. God uses Mary, Jesus honored Mary as His mother. She is clearly important and can pray for us.
So you have always had a thing against Catholics? So thats who you are then, alright now this thread and your demeanor make sense.
"I remember even as a child" means nothing in a debate and it simply a strawman.
The Church has believed in the Communion of Saints since before the actual Bible was put together and declared divinely inspired. It is stated in the Apostles Creed. The Bible directs us to in Psalms 103: 20-21 and the beginning of Psalms 104.
Also we know they are there and pray for us as shown in Revelations 5:8.
You know, the more I read the more I realize that you are clueless in regards to the Catholic Faith. Which is fine, you can admit it.
Jesus says that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood. When he spoke of this to His disciples, and many left, if He was just speaking figuratively why wouldn't He tell the disciples to come back?
Once again, John 6:53-56, Jesus is speaking very clearly, and is literal. Not metaphorically speaking.
God is outside of time, and as Catholics we believe that we are partaking in the Last Supper, when we have Communion. We are with Jesus and the apostles at the Last Supper.
Wrong, because Jesus CLEARLY states "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
This states that the apostles had the power to retain sins, meaning that they are not forgiven. This power was given to them by Jesus himself, and has been passes down through the laying of hands from bishops to bishops. This power was not given to the entire Church body, but to the apostles.
Please explain this passage then, Matthew 16: 15-18 " 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,c]">[c] the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,d]">[d] and on this rocke]">[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
Jesus renames Simon to Peter, which in Arabic is kepha, which directly translates to "rock", so Jesus is making Peter the earthly rock of His Church, the earthly head of His Church.
Over the course of this thread, you are clearly shown why self-interpretation of the Bible does not work, with the misunderstandings of confession, the eucharist, and Peter.
Once again, there is nothing that the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church teaches that goes against the bible.
Let me say this as plainly as I can. Salvation is found through Jesus, not Mary. Period, as Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, is intertwined in our Salvation because without Mary, Jesus as we know Him, would not have become man. It's really simple.
I never said that Mary dispenses anything from Jesus, where did you come up with that?? What I said was that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and that Jesus performed His first miracle on behalf of His mother. Mary is only human, correct, but she is also our greatest boast as a race. God honors Mary in how she was greeted by the angle. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.", Jesus gave Mary to us (through John) while he was dying on the cross.
There have been plenty of confirmed sightings of Mary, the most recent I believe being Fatima. God uses Mary, Jesus honored Mary as His mother. She is clearly important and can pray for us.
So you have always had a thing against Catholics? So thats who you are then, alright now this thread and your demeanor make sense.
"I remember even as a child" means nothing in a debate and it simply a strawman.
The Church has believed in the Communion of Saints since before the actual Bible was put together and declared divinely inspired. It is stated in the Apostles Creed. The Bible directs us to in Psalms 103: 20-21 and the beginning of Psalms 104.
Also we know they are there and pray for us as shown in Revelations 5:8.
You know, the more I read the more I realize that you are clueless in regards to the Catholic Faith. Which is fine, you can admit it.
Jesus says that we are to eat His flesh and drink His blood. When he spoke of this to His disciples, and many left, if He was just speaking figuratively why wouldn't He tell the disciples to come back?
Once again, John 6:53-56, Jesus is speaking very clearly, and is literal. Not metaphorically speaking.
God is outside of time, and as Catholics we believe that we are partaking in the Last Supper, when we have Communion. We are with Jesus and the apostles at the Last Supper.
Wrong, because Jesus CLEARLY states "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
This states that the apostles had the power to retain sins, meaning that they are not forgiven. This power was given to them by Jesus himself, and has been passes down through the laying of hands from bishops to bishops. This power was not given to the entire Church body, but to the apostles.
Please explain this passage then, Matthew 16: 15-18 " 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,c]">[c] the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,d]">[d] and on this rocke]">[e] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
Jesus renames Simon to Peter, which in Arabic is kepha, which directly translates to "rock", so Jesus is making Peter the earthly rock of His Church, the earthly head of His Church.
Over the course of this thread, you are clearly shown why self-interpretation of the Bible does not work, with the misunderstandings of confession, the eucharist, and Peter.
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I repented of my sins to Jesus under the conviction of reading various Scripture verses. I then started to read the Word of God and I knew it was a divine and holy book unlike any other. As time grew on, God showed me that His Word is the only authority I should follow.
In fact, if you are interested, you can see my extensive defense on Sola Scriptura using God's Word at CF here, and here.
How do I know I have the truth?
Well, first, I accepted the Truth (Jesus) in 1992. Second, from that point, I can share my experience of my walk with God and how He has changed my life. Three, God has shown me things in His Word that would not have been possible for me to understand on my own power. Four, I know according to Scripture that the Bible is sole authority for men's lives. Five, my faith in the truth of God's Word has been confirmed to be by many evidences that back it up. There is no other holy book or writing that compares to the Bible.
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Erose
Newbie
I'm disagreeing because the Bible isn't saying what you are claiming. The context is reading the passages you quoted in context with the whole passage and not just the verse with your interpretation. Just because you interpret something your way, doesn't mean that everyone else should just accept your interpretation. Again, read the whole passage and not just one little verse. One can can any verse in Scripture out context and have it say whatever they want, which is what happens quite frequently.
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Again, you are writing words that basically say you disagree but you are not showing me the actual Bible verses that would prove that you are correct in any way. You are still just shaking your head and saying I am wrong. Please show me with the Word of God how I am wrong. For the Word is where we will settle the truth of the matter. Please provide Scripture verses to prove your points.
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Then please show me all the additional practices of the RCC in Scripture. For where is the bowing down to statues being acceptable? Where is communicating to Mary and the other saints as being acceptable? Where is the practice of the RCC version's of the Eucharist seen in Scripture? Where is a figure like pope parading around and being adored by other believers seen in Scripture?
Wolf_Says said:
Before you said salvation is interwined with Mary.
Vatican 2 says: "Mary, the Mother of God…is united with indissoluble bonds to the saving work of her Son."
In an article in an RCC newspaper (September 12, 1993) it says this about Mary: "Sprinkled throughout the Catholic liturgical year are feasts celebrating the Blessed Virgin Mary's role in human salvation and how she continues to intercede for people at God's right hand."
Wolf_Says said:
Where did I say I had a thing against Catholics? I didn't. I merely disagreed with their teachings even as a child. I was not influenced by the Catholic church and I could see it from an unbiased viewpoint as a person who just prayed to the Lord directly. Nowhere will you find in the Bible that we are to pray to Mary and the dead saints. We are told to pray to God in the Bible (and not dead people).
Wolf_Says said:
Sorry, it is not a strawman. I was looking at things from the perspective of a child who was not influenced by the RCC. I later accepted Jesus in 1992, but I was able to see things clearly even as a child long before I became born again. Jesus said we have to be converted and become like children, or we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I believe my view as a child (who was not influenced) was able to see things very clearly. My testimony has even more weight now today because Jesus has transformed my life since that day I accepted Him in 1992.
Wolf_Says said:
Sorry, I do not believe in man made historical documents. Ever heard of the saying, History is written by the victors? Surely nobody wants to be the loser within their own history books. Folks want to always make themselves out to be the heroes. The only book we can trust thru out history is God's Word.
Wolf_Says said:
The prayers of the saints could also include saints who are still alive, too. Granted, I do not see a problem with God's people talking to God in His Kingdom. It would be only natural for this to happen. But to assume that Revelation 5:8 teaches that we pray to the saints so that they can pray for us is something that it does not clearly say.
Wolf_Says said:
I believe the Catholic faith has not always stayed the same. It's teachings keep changing over the years in a subtle way. You can see this for yourself with the teachings from the various holy men within it (Who made new doctrine traditions) thru out history. But you can believe whatever you like. But you should be an expert on all the added traditions written down by your church and you should be able to explain them. For me, I see nothing but contradictions in them. I also do not see any evidence that they are divine works like the Word of God, either.
Wolf_Says said:
Because he wasn't speaking literally. If Jesus was speaking literally, then that would mean Jesus desired to have all of his disciples biting and eating Him. That would not have been good at all seeing He still needed to go to the cross so as to die for man's sins.
Also, Jesus is not obligated to share truth with a person if they do not get it. The disciples did not understand or believe Jesus's statement on the resurrection until after He was risen and they had seen Him.
Wolf_Says said:
Most people think of "time" existing in the same way as it does in the movies. That is, a person can travel to the past or the future. That the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. Sorry, but time doesn't work like that. If it did, then that would mean God would have to be a slave to time. Meaning, God would still be creating everything in six literal 24 hour days as we speak in some dimension of time known as the past. This would mean that God did not really stop or rest from His work on day 7. This would also mean that Jesus did not really mean "It is finished" when He was upon the cross. For Jesus would still be saying this over and over and over and over again thru out some dimension of time somewhere. That doesn't make any sense.
Wolf_Says said:
Scripture has to be compared and read with other Scripture. You cannot take one verse and read out of context to the rest of the Bible. We see nowhere in the Bible where Christ's followers had absolved sin for people. In other words, you are gonna have to show me where else the Bible clearly shows that His people forgave sins. On the contrary, John tells us not to sin and if we do sin we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus. There is no mention of how they can come to John and be forgiven (See 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 1:9).
Wolf_Says said:
Notice that Jesus does not say that Peter is the rock. Jesus does not say, Peter. You are the rock and upon you will I build my church. Jesus does not say that. In fact, Peter says that Jesus is the rock (1 Peter 2:7). Paul says Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4). You cannot have two people being the rock or the foundation of the church. In fact, Paul says that no man can lay any foundation but Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11). So Jesus is the foundation of the church. Not Peter! Even if you wanted to make Peter the foundation it would not work, because Jesus says there is none good but God (Mark 10:18). It is merely the goodness of God that we allow to flow thru our lives. We are nothing in and of ourselves (without God) (See Galatians 6:3).
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SnowyMacie
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All we've been doing it showing you verses that point on where you are wrong regarding the traditions of the Catholic and Orthodox church.
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I disagree. Nobody has provided for me any verses or passages clearly showing me what I see in the Catholic or Orthodox churches today. Sure, somebody can take a text here and there and interpret to suggest that this supports these traditions, but one's imagination has to be working over time in order for them to support such traditions. The Scriptures do not specifically explain the added traditions that we see in the RCC and the Orthodox churches today.
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