Jesus = Messiah = Sin offering for mankind - is this correct?

Shibolet · Jan 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
So then you believe that there are two Messiahs (Individuals -- 2 persons ) - even though up until the time of Solomon - and including his entire reign - Moses and all the prophets until then could only have predicted one Messiah having only one Israel and no division between northern and southern kingdoms?

And yes - Jesus was a descendant of David as is pointed out in his lineage in Matt 1 and in Luke 3.

No, I don't. There were two Messiahs "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David", aka two people within the collective concept of Messiah: Israel aka Messiah Ben Joseph and Judah aka Messiah Ben David. Listen BobRyan, I am posting a thread about all one needs to know about "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David." I hope you will have the answers you need about both Messiahs.

gadar perets · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, EXACTLY. Your disobedience to the Torah, KILLED Yeshua (John 7:19), and where that TRANSGRESSION increased, Grace increased all the more (Romans 5:20). All of us have been disobedient to the Torah, so ALL of us have KILLED Yeshua, but when we understand that our sin did KILL and SACRIFICE Him, it becomes OUR Righteousness. We have DONE what The Torah required that we should do.

This is totally false. You can't present one verse stating this. Yeshua died before I was born. My disobedience to Torah was after his death. Not only did I NOT kill Yeshua, but no man killed Yeshua, not even those who sinned prior to his death.

John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

The only thing that caused Yeshua's death was love. Yahweh so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Yeshua loved the world just as his Father did and voluntarily chose to die for it. Greater love had no man.

It was YHWH's plan to have His Son killed as a sin offering, but no man offered him and no man sacrificed him. YHWH both offered him and took his life (Isaiah 53). He used a few Romans to do the actual killing, but the Romans could not have taken Yeshua's life without YHWH's and Yeshua's permission.

When you say "ALL of us have KILLED Yeshua," you take the plan of salvation out of YHWH and Yeshua's hands and put it in man's hands. No wonder you call it "OUR righteousness". The fact of the matter is, it was the righteousness of YHWH and Yeshua that brought about Yeshua's death. Man had nothing to do with it except for a few to be used as instruments to actually kill him.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

Shibolet said:
No, I don't. There were two Messiahs "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David", aka two people within the collective concept of Messiah: Israel aka Messiah Ben Joseph and Judah aka Messiah Ben David. Listen BobRyan, I am posting a thread about all one needs to know about "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David." I hope you will have the answers you need about both Messiahs.

For starters - I can't find any place where the Tanakh or any other part of the Bible mentions two Messiahs - can we agree on that? There is not one single text mentioning "Messiah Ben Joseph" mentioned. What is more the birth right would have passed through Judah and not Joseph.

What is more - the OP for this thread quotes Isaiah 53 and Jeremiah 23:5-6 where one single Messiah covers both Judah and Israel.

Is 53
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Jeremiah 23
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

gadar perets · Jan 3, 2017

Shibolet said:
No, I don't. There were two Messiahs "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David", aka two people within the collective concept of Messiah: Israel aka Messiah Ben Joseph and Judah aka Messiah Ben David.

Not according to "Judaism 101" (jewfaq.org) and the JewishEncyclopedia.com.

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Messiah ben Joseph.

Finally, there must be mentioned a Messianic figure peculiar to the rabbinical apocalyptic literature—that of Messiah ben Joseph. The earliest mention of him is in Suk. 52a, b, where three statements occur in regard to him, for the first of which R. Dosa (c. 250) is given as authority. In the last of these statements only his name is mentioned, but the first two speak of the fate which he is to meet, namely, to fall in battle (as if alluding to a well-known tradition). Details about him are not found until much later, but he has an established place in the apocalypses of later centuries and in the midrash literature—in Saadia's description of the future ("Emunot we-De'ot," ch. viii.) and in that of Hai Gaon ("Ṭa'am Zeḳenim," p. 59). According to these, Messiah b. Joseph will appear prior to the coming of Messiah b. David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
Not according to "Judaism 101" (jewfaq.org) and the JewishEncyclopedia.com.

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Messiah ben Joseph.

Finally, there must be mentioned a Messianic figure peculiar to the rabbinical apocalyptic literature—that of Messiah ben Joseph. The earliest mention of him is in Suk. 52a, b, where three statements occur in regard to him, for the first of which R. Dosa (c. 250) is given as authority. In the last of these statements only his name is mentioned, but the first two speak of the fate which he is to meet, namely, to fall in battle (as if alluding to a well-known tradition). Details about him are not found until much later, but he has an established place in the apocalypses of later centuries and in the midrash literature—in Saadia's description of the future ("Emunot we-De'ot," ch. viii.) and in that of Hai Gaon ("Ṭa'am Zeḳenim," p. 59). According to these, Messiah b. Joseph will appear prior to the coming of Messiah b. David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion.

Thanks that is very helpful.
It appears that these are figures added outside of the Tanakh and there are two Messiahs (individuals) coming in that version of the future. But this is not in any Bible text - it is outside both the Tanakh and the New Testament.

ImAHebrew · Jan 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
This is totally false. You can't present one verse stating this. Yeshua died before I was born. My disobedience to Torah was after his death. Not only did I NOT kill Yeshua, but no man killed Yeshua, not even those who sinned prior to his death.

John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.

The only thing that caused Yeshua's death was love. Yahweh so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Yeshua loved the world just as his Father did and voluntarily chose to die for it. Greater love had no man.

It was YHWH's plan to have His Son killed as a sin offering, but no man offered him and no man sacrificed him. YHWH both offered him and took his life (Isaiah 53). He used a few Romans to do the actual killing, but the Romans could not have taken Yeshua's life without YHWH's and Yeshua's permission.

When you say "ALL of us have KILLED Yeshua," you take the plan of salvation out of YHWH and Yeshua's hands and put it in man's hands. No wonder you call it "OUR righteousness". The fact of the matter is, it was the righteousness of YHWH and Yeshua that brought about Yeshua's death. Man had nothing to do with it except for a few to be used as instruments to actually kill him.

Shalom gadar perets, I'm sorry you disagree. One way to look at this is through what happened at Pentecost. You know, IF your version of the gospel is correct, would not this have been Peter's message:

Act 2:22
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yeshua of Nazareth, a man approved of Elohim among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which Elohim did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:...This man, without anyone taking his life from him, laid his life down for you in your stead, so that he could pay the penalty of your sin. Believe the truth of this message and be saved from the penalty of your sin, because he has paid for it lock, stock, and barrel, by placing himself upon the cross.

But it appears he had a different message, and here are a few of the snippets of what was said, and in the days following:

Acts 2:23 Ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.
Acts 2:36 Whom ye have crucified.
Acts 3:13 Whom ye delivered up.
Acts 3:14 Ye denied the Holy One and the Just
Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince of Life.
Acts 4:10 Whom ye crucified.
Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 5:31 whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

You see gadar perets? The Gospel went out by TELLING sinners that they KILLED the Prince of Life, not that the Prince of Life committed suicide, or took His own life in the stead of others. That is not thinking properly. Yeshua was very clear, those who fail to keep the Torah of Moses, attempt to murder Him (John 7:19), and the writer of Hebrews states that those who fall back INTO deliberate sin, to where they would again need to be renewed unto repentance, re-crucify Him afresh (Hebrews 6:6). Do you understand that? Sinning is what CRUCIFIED Him, you sinning and mine, ALL who have sinned did place Him up where He should not have been made to stand-upon the Cross. It would help if you would re-examine your thought process in how you feel you did not Sacrifice Him. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Concerning your objection to having YOUR sin perform Righteousness, think along these lines. When a sinner commits a transgression, built within the Torah is a process to make the sinner RIGHTEOUS. They have to confess their sin, and SACRIFICE the required offering, and IF they do this, they have RIGHTEOUSNESS...they have kept what the Torah commanded them to do. When The Apostle Paul tried to teach his fellow countrymen about this RIGHTEOUSNESS, they would slander him and claim that he was teaching that we should do evil, so that good may come (Romans 3:8). Try to grasp the significance of that statement. Paul taught them that THEIR sin KILLED Yeshua (their sin offering), and they came back with "WELL, let's do EVIL so that good may come." Think about it.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, I'm sorry you disagree. One way to look at this is through what happened at Pentecost. You know, IF your version of the gospel is correct, would not this have been Peter's message:
But it appears he had a different message, and here are a few of the snippets of what was said, and in the days following:

Acts 2:23 Ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.
Acts 2:36 Whom ye have crucified.
Acts 3:13 Whom ye delivered up.
Acts 3:14 Ye denied the Holy One and the Just
Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince of Life.
Acts 4:10 Whom ye crucified.
Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 5:31 whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

You see gadar perets? The Gospel went out by TELLING sinners that they KILLED the Prince of Life, not that the Prince of Life committed suicide, or took His own life in the stead of others.

Well one thing is for certain - murder is wrong in both the Tanakh and in the NT. No change to the Ten Commandments.

As for Acts 2 -- did Peter really say that Jesus the Messiah simply ran afoul of some bad characters and ended up deceased -- failing to foresee it? An "accident" or a simply not being swift enough to out smart his enemies?? Is that really the message of Acts 2??

Acts 2 - says this

22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him,

‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’

29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
You see gadar perets? The Gospel went out by TELLING sinners that they KILLED the Prince of Life, not that the Prince of Life committed suicide, or took His own life in the stead of others. That is not thinking properly. Yeshua was very clear, those who fail to keep the Torah of Moses, attempt to murder Him (John 7:19), and the writer of Hebrews states that those who fall back INTO deliberate sin,

In the first 3 posts of this thread we look at what the scriptures say was the intention of the Messiah -- in the actual text.

BobRyan said:
Jesus - the Messiah came to die for the sins of the world.

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”[

to where they would again need to be renewed unto repentance, re-crucify Him afresh (Hebrews 6:6). Do you understand that? Sinning is what CRUCIFIED Him, you sinning and mine, ALL who have sinned did place Him up where He should not have been made to stand-upon the Cross.

True. if nobody ever sinned - there would be no need of a Messiah as an Isaiah 53 "sin offering" for the "sins of my people"

but as it is - all have sinned -- not just the Roman soldiers - but all.

Christ began sweating "great drops of blood" which if the mob had not arrived would eventually lead to his death in the Garden of Gethsemane -- a supernatural death as a result of the wrath of God against sin - and all the sins of the entire world laid upon Christ.

ImAHebrew · Jan 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
Well one thing is for certain - murder is wrong in both the Tanakh and in the NT. No change to the Ten Commandments.

As for Acts 2 -- did Peter really say that Jesus the Messiah simply ran afoul of some bad characters and ended up deceased -- failing to foresee it? An "accident" or a simply not being swift enough to out smart his enemies?? Is that really the message of Acts 2??

Acts 2 - says this

22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him,

‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’

29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Shalom BobRyan, to be sure, Yeshua being murdered by you and me was pre-planned. It wasn't willy-nilly. Elohim KNEW that for us as sinners to STOP sinning, He had to allow something pretty drastic to happen to Yeshua, and Yeshua AGREED to that will. It was all done so that we could be BLESSED, in TURNING away from ALL of our INIQUITIES (Acts 3:26). Who in their right mind, AFTER coming to the Knowledge of the Truth about their involvement with murdering/sacrificing Yeshua, would continue to REMAIN in their sin, and not FLEE from it? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

gadar perets · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, I'm sorry you disagree. One way to look at this is through what happened at Pentecost. You know, IF your version of the gospel is correct, would not this have been Peter's message:

Act 2:22
(22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yeshua of Nazareth, a man approved of Elohim among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which Elohim did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:...This man, without anyone taking his life from him, laid his life down for you in your stead, so that he could pay the penalty of your sin. Believe the truth of this message and be saved from the penalty of your sin, because he has paid for it lock, stock, and barrel, by placing himself upon the cross.

But it appears he had a different message, and here are a few of the snippets of what was said, and in the days following:

Acts 2:23 Ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.
Acts 2:36 Whom ye have crucified.
Acts 3:13 Whom ye delivered up.
Acts 3:14 Ye denied the Holy One and the Just
Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince of Life.
Acts 4:10 Whom ye crucified.
Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 5:31 whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

You see gadar perets? The Gospel went out by TELLING sinners that they KILLED the Prince of Life, not that the Prince of Life committed suicide, or took His own life in the stead of others. That is not thinking properly.

I do not deny that certain men actually killed Yeshua. Nor do I deny that the Jews were accomplices in his death, but that is not the issue. They had no power whatsoever to kill Yeshua. As Yeshua said, he could have prayed for legions of angels to save him, but he didn't because he was voluntarily giving up his life. Our sins did not kill him because he did not have to die for them. He CHOSE to die for them. If he was forced to die by the will of man, you might have a case, but that was not the case. The issue is whether or not every human being's sins killed him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Yeshua was very clear, those who fail to keep the Torah of Moses, attempt to murder Him (John 7:19),

No one attempted to murder Yeshua, nor was he murdered. He was put to death for crimes they thought, albeit erroneously, he committed.

and the writer of Hebrews states that those who fall back INTO deliberate sin, to where they would again need to be renewed unto repentance, re-crucify Him afresh (Hebrews 6:6). Do you understand that? Sinning is what CRUCIFIED Him, you sinning and mine, ALL who have sinned did place Him up where He should not have been made to stand-upon the Cross. It would help if you would re-examine your thought process in how you feel you did not Sacrifice Him. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

The first crucifixion was the will of YHWH and Yeshua. The re-crucifying of Hebrews 6:6 is the will of man. Therefore, their sins would crucify him again because Yeshua is not voluntarily submitting to being re-crucified. With all do respect, you need to reexamine your position.

P.S. Concerning your objection to having YOUR sin perform Righteousness, think along these lines. When a sinner commits a transgression, built within the Torah is a process to make the sinner RIGHTEOUS. They have to confess their sin, and SACRIFICE the required offering, and IF they do this, they have RIGHTEOUSNESS...they have kept what the Torah commanded them to do.

To confess and sacrifice are acts of righteousness. To sin is an act of unrighteousness. Sin does NOT bring forth righteousness, but death. Confession and sacrifice brings forth righteousness.

When The Apostle Paul tried to teach his fellow countrymen about this RIGHTEOUSNESS, they would slander him and claim that he was teaching that we should do evil, so that good may come (Romans 3:8). Try to grasp the significance of that statement. Paul taught them that THEIR sin KILLED Yeshua (their sin offering), and they came back with "WELL, let's do EVIL so that good may come." Think about it.

Romans 3:8 says nothing about THEIR sins killing Yeshua, but that good resulted from their sins. If you continue on in the chapter, we read;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Yeshua.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Their was no righteousness on our part, through obeying Torah, that led to our being declared righteous. It is all through grace and righteousness of YHWH and Yeshua.

ImAHebrew · Jan 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
In the first 3 posts of this thread we look at what the scriptures say was the intention of the Messiah -- in the actual text.

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”[

True. if nobody ever sinned - there would be no need of a Messiah as an Isaiah 53 "sin offering" for the "sins of my people"

but as it is - all have sinned -- not just the Roman soldiers - but all.

Christ began sweating "great drops of blood" which if the mob had not arrived would eventually lead to his death in the Garden of Gethsemane -- a supernatural death as a result of the wrath of God against sin - and all the sins of the entire world laid upon Christ.

Shalom BobRyan, Yeshua predicted His suffering and death, and 3rd day resurrection on many occasions, and His Disciples were CLUELESS (Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45, Luke 18:31-34). After His suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection Yeshua did OPEN the Scriptures to His Disciples concerning what Moshe WROTE, first to the two on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:25-27), and their reaction was that their hearts BURNED within them as Yeshua OPENED the Scriptures to them (Luke 24:32). Later that evening, Yeshua OPENED those Scriptures to the other Disciples (sans Thomas), and made it to where they could UNDERSTAND what Moshe wrote concerning His suffering and 3rd day resurrection.

Look BobRyan, you have been hearing things from me that go against traditional christianity, and one more thing I have against them is that within traditional christianity, they know NOTHING about what Moshe wrote concerning Yeshua's suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection. Moshe wrote EXPLICITLY about those things and Yeshua OPENED the understanding of what Moshe wrote to His Disciples, but not to traditional christianity. Why is that? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

ImAHebrew · Jan 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
I do not deny that certain men actually killed Yeshua. Nor do I deny that the Jews were accomplices in his death, but that is not the issue. They had no power whatsoever to kill Yeshua. As Yeshua said, he could have prayed for legions of angels to save him, but he didn't because he was voluntarily giving up his life. Our sins did not kill him because he did not have to die for them. He CHOSE to die for them. If he was forced to die by the will of man, you might have a case, but that was not the case. The issue is whether or not every human being's sins killed him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

No one attempted to murder Yeshua, nor was he murdered. He was put to death for crimes they thought, albeit erroneously, he committed.

The first crucifixion was the will of YHWH and Yeshua. The re-crucifying of Hebrews 6:6 is the will of man. Therefore, their sins would crucify him again because Yeshua is not voluntarily submitting to being re-crucified. With all do respect, you need to reexamine your position.

To confess and sacrifice are acts of righteousness. To sin is an act of unrighteousness. Sin does NOT bring forth righteousness, but death. Confession and sacrifice brings forth righteousness.

Romans 3:8 says nothing about THEIR sins killing Yeshua, but that good resulted from their sins. If you continue on in the chapter, we read;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Yeshua.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Their was no righteousness on our part, through obeying Torah, that led to our being declared righteous. It is all through grace and righteousness of YHWH and Yeshua.

Shalom gadar perets, it is not easy to grasp, but Elohim is in the process of CREATING many sons and daughters that will FROM THEIR HEART, follow Him throughout all of Eternity. In His Plan, He allowed mankind to become BOUND to sin, by creating us carnal/flesh (Romans 11:32, Romans 7:14), with the HOPE that mankind could develop INTO Saints (Romans 8:20-22), and be FREE from the slavery of sin (John 8:32-36). The CATALYST that frees sinners FROM being sinners, is through being able to SEE the Abomination that occurred to Messiah Yeshua, when He was placed upon the Cross, being make to stand where He ought not. That doesn't mean that He was not supposed to fulfill that role, just because it was abominable...The Just One and Righteous One being mistreated and slaughtered in a horrific and unmerciful way, but that was the PLAN. It happened so that WE, ALL of us sinners could come to realize what actually KILLS, and that is DISOBEDIENCE to what Elohim commands. This was His way to teach us about the terrible consequences of our sin...the Death of Messiah Yeshua. There is GREAT Power in this Knowledge in TAKING AWAY the sin from the WORLD. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom BobRyan, to be sure, Yeshua being murdered by you and me was pre-planned. It wasn't willy-nilly. Elohim KNEW that for us as sinners to STOP sinning, He had to allow something pretty drastic to happen to Yeshua, and Yeshua AGREED to that will. It was all done so that we could be BLESSED, in TURNING away from ALL of our INIQUITIES (Acts 3:26). Who in their right mind, AFTER coming to the Knowledge of the Truth about their involvement with murdering/sacrificing Yeshua, would continue to REMAIN in their sin, and not FLEE from it? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

This is true - but there is something you are missing - in the texts that say "all have sinned" in both Tanakh and in the New Testament - we are confronted with brutal reality. Why is it Moses, Samuel, Enoch, Elijah, John the baptizer... etc why did they "ALL" sin? after all in any given class in school "not ALL get F" -- "not ALL refuse to study". We are confronted with the fact that the Tanakh and the New Testament are telling us something that is basic to mankind - the sinful nature - slaves to sinning . The problem is not just that we "Do not" submit to the LAW of God - the problem is that "indeed we CAN not submit" without the new birth , the new creation -- walking by the Spirit instead of in our our strength. So the Gospel is not only about conviction of our guilt - as you point out -- and determination to live in obedience - the problem is that we "Can not" do that - without the supernatural work of God. And the problem is that our past sins demand torment and then the 2nd death - the final death from which there is no coming back.

Christ takes that torment for us, He makes it possible for us to be born again, to have a new heart and the heart of stone removed.

you can see this in the Tanakh and in part of what you said earlier

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, it is not easy to grasp, but Elohim is in the process of CREATING many sons and daughters that will FROM THEIR HEART, follow Him throughout all of Eternity.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Look BobRyan, you have been hearing things from me that go against traditional christianity, and one more thing I have against them is that within traditional christianity, they know NOTHING about what Moshe wrote concerning Yeshua's suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection. Moshe wrote EXPLICITLY about those things and Yeshua OPENED the understanding of what Moshe wrote to His Disciples, but not to traditional christianity. Why is that? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

You are using a phrase here - "traditional Christianity" - what do you mean by that phrase?

As you know there are many Christian denominations - and we have some things in common but there is always some point of difference - leading to the various denominations.

You are contrasting what Moses wrote about Christ with "Traditional Christianity" - specifically on what points?

gadar perets · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, it is not easy to grasp, but Elohim is in the process of CREATING many sons and daughters that will FROM THEIR HEART, follow Him throughout all of Eternity. In His Plan, He allowed mankind to become BOUND to sin, by creating us carnal/flesh (Romans 11:32, Romans 7:14), with the HOPE that mankind could develop INTO Saints (Romans 8:20-22), and be FREE from the slavery of sin (John 8:32-36).

I agree.

The CATALYST that frees sinners FROM being sinners, is through being able to SEE the Abomination that occurred to Messiah Yeshua, when He was placed upon the Cross, being make to stand where He ought not. That doesn't mean that He was not supposed to fulfill that role, just because it was abominable...The Just One and Righteous One being mistreated and slaughtered in a horrific and unmerciful way, but that was the PLAN.

I disagree. The catalyst that frees sinners FROM being sinners is LOVE.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

YHWH loved us so much, He sent His Son to die for us. Yeshua loved us so much he laid his life down for us. Those tremendous acts of love caused us to love them and to keep their commandments (free from being sinners).

It happened so that WE, ALL of us sinners could come to realize what actually KILLS, and that is DISOBEDIENCE to what Elohim commands. This was His way to teach us about the terrible consequences of our sin...the Death of Messiah Yeshua. There is GREAT Power in this Knowledge in TAKING AWAY the sin from the WORLD. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Yes, disobedience to Elohim's commands is what kills US. It is not what killed Yeshua. He voluntarily laid down his life (allowed himself to be killed by some people of his day) so that all mankind could avoid being killed by our own disobedience.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom gadar perets, it is not easy to grasp, but Elohim is in the process of CREATING many sons and daughters that will FROM THEIR HEART, follow Him throughout all of Eternity. In His Plan, He allowed mankind to become BOUND to sin, by creating us carnal/flesh (Romans 11:32, Romans 7:14), with the HOPE that mankind could develop INTO Saints (Romans 8:20-22), and be FREE from the slavery of sin (John 8:32-36). The CATALYST that frees sinners FROM being sinners, is through being able to SEE the Abomination that occurred to Messiah Yeshua, when He was placed upon the Cross, being make to stand where He ought not. That doesn't mean that He was not supposed to fulfill that role, just because it was abominable...The Just One and Righteous One being mistreated and slaughtered in a horrific and unmerciful way, but that was the PLAN. It happened so that WE, ALL of us sinners could come to realize what actually KILLS, and that is DISOBEDIENCE to what Elohim commands. This was His way to teach us about the terrible consequences of our sin...the Death of Messiah Yeshua. There is GREAT Power in this Knowledge in TAKING AWAY the sin from the WORLD. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Certainly it is true that rebellion vs obedience is the issue. But the problem is - we are on the side of Rebellion as lost sinners. In the cross of Christ we are convicted of our condition - our need for change. That change can only happen through the supernatural work of God for us. Creating in us a clean heart - supernaturally, forgiving sin through the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ - the Isaiah 53 "sin offering" where he pays for our debt of suffering and death owed for our sins, and reconciles us to God. Giving us His Spirit - creating a "clean heart and a right spirit" as David said. "CREATING" that in us - supernaturally - as He is Creator God YHWH.

In our lost condition we can "choose" to accept the Gospel, choose to accept Christ as our Saviour - once God supernaturally presses conviction of sin upon us.

But then the supernatural work of God must continue to happen - creating the Clean Heart - and a "right spirit" within, "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation - old things passed away all things become new" 2 Corinthians 5 -- near the end of that chapter.

God created Adam and Eve perfect, sinless holy, and the garden of Eden had everything they needed to live forever. But they chose sin - and that meant a plan of rescue of salvation had to be put in place to reconcile sinless eternal God and man - in a way that did not destroy the LAW of the universe, that did not destroy righteousness.

Justice and Mercy - kiss at the cross.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
I agree.

I disagree. The catalyst that frees sinners FROM being sinners is LOVE.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

YHWH loved us so much, He sent His Son to die for us. Yeshua loved us so much he laid his life down for us. Those tremendous acts of love caused us to love them and to keep their commandments (free from being sinners).

Yes, disobedience to Elohim's commands is what kills US. It is not what killed Yeshua. He voluntarily laid down his life (allowed himself to be killed by some people of his day) so that all mankind could avoid being killed by our own disobedience.

God's motivation is love "God so Loved the world that He gave" John 3:16

"this is love - not that we Loved God - but that God loved US -- and that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" Romans 5

So then our motive as lost sinners is not pure and God-like -- rather we fear the wrath to come - the judgment that is due to us, as we see our guilty and helpless condition headed straight for the "meat grinder" as they say in the cartoons. But then we see a way of escape - God is our Saviour and He provides that way of escape at infinite cost to Himself. Turning from sin... choosing repentance and confession - we accept the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit - removing our "heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh" - He "puts a new heart within" -- one that is capable of love.

BobRyan · Jan 3, 2017

ImAHebrew said:
Shalom BobRyan, Yeshua predicted His suffering and death, and 3rd day resurrection on many occasions, and His Disciples were CLUELESS (Mark 9:31-32, Luke 9:44-45, Luke 18:31-34). After His suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection Yeshua did OPEN the Scriptures to His Disciples concerning what Moshe WROTE, first to the two on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:25-27), and their reaction was that their hearts BURNED within them as Yeshua OPENED the Scriptures to them (Luke 24:32). Later that evening, Yeshua OPENED those Scriptures to the other Disciples (sans Thomas), and made it to where they could UNDERSTAND what Moshe wrote concerning His suffering and 3rd day resurrection.

Agreed but why do you say this goes against traditional Christianity?

Shibolet · Jan 4, 2017

gadar perets said:
Not according to "Judaism 101" (jewfaq.org) and the JewishEncyclopedia.com.

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Messiah ben Joseph.

Finally, there must be mentioned a Messianic figure peculiar to the rabbinical apocalyptic literature—that of Messiah ben Joseph. The earliest mention of him is in Suk. 52a, b, where three statements occur in regard to him, for the first of which R. Dosa (c. 250) is given as authority. In the last of these statements only his name is mentioned, but the first two speak of the fate which he is to meet, namely, to fall in battle (as if alluding to a well-known tradition). Details about him are not found until much later, but he has an established place in the apocalypses of later centuries and in the midrash literature—in Saadia's description of the future ("Emunot we-De'ot," ch. viii.) and in that of Hai Gaon ("Ṭa'am Zeḳenim," p. 59). According to these, Messiah b. Joseph will appear prior to the coming of Messiah b. David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion.

And after he die, we will be left only with the hope that another Messiah will rise to continue the Job of the one who died. Does it make any sense to you?
The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) All the questions about Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David are answered in my most recent thread "Mashiach Ben Joseph versus Mashiach Ben David". I have just posted it for all the posters in this forum.

Shibolet · Jan 4, 2017

BobRyan said:
For starters - I can't find any place where the Tanakh or any other part of the Bible mentions two Messiahs - can we agree on that? There is not one single text mentioning "Messiah Ben Joseph" mentioned. What is more the birth right would have passed through Judah and not Joseph.

I know, you want to see with the eyes of your flesh the written words "Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David. You won't see them in the Tanach but they are right there in Isaiah 53. (Isaiah 53:11) "My righteous servant makes the "many" righteous." My righteous servant was Messiah Ben Joseph aka Israel; by fulfilling the prophecy of the Scapegoat, he made the "many" righteous. The "many" righteous are those of Messiah Ben David aka Judah.

What is more - the OP for this thread quotes Isaiah 53 and Jeremiah 23:5-6 where one single Messiah covers both Judah and Israel.

Yes, one single Messiah covers both, Israel and Judah as one kingdom, one nation, one People if you read Ezekiel 37:22. The inclusion of Israel into this one nation only is due to 10% who succeeded to escape Assyria and joined Judah in the South. Two sources: Isaiah 6:13 and Josephus in his book "Wars of the Jews." Although, I suspect that Josephus got his info from Isaiah.

Is 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

This is about the iniquities of Judah that Israel bored by falling in the hands of the Assyrians. (Amos 5:2) This happened when the Lord rejected Israel and confirmed Judah as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever as He promised David in I Kings 11:36)

Jeremiah 23:

5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

The righteous branch aka a king Messiah is Judah as the Lord promised David He would raise. (I Kings 11:36)

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Yes, saved and safely together under the New Jewish World Order aka New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. (Ezekiel 37:22)

Jesus = Messiah = Sin offering for mankind - is this correct?

Active Member

Messianic Hebrew

Junior Member

Messianic Hebrew

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Messianic Hebrew

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Messianic Hebrew

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Active Member

Active Member

Similar threads