Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Riberra

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I said: Nobody has given any real proof that God will take living people to heaven.
The 'rapture theory' is built on supposition, inferences, and wishful thinking. There is no scripture anywhere that supports such a presumptuous idea.
Their belief is that Jesus have built mansions fully equipped with giant TV screen in Heaven so that they will be able to watch comfortably the tribulation happening on Earth because they believe that they are SO Worthy -even - more worthy than the 12 Apostles.They don't want to hear about anything else.

Let them dream if that makes them feel good.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 
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Yahu_

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In other words ,you are studying the Biblical Revelation Prophecies through the luciferian point of view ....Do you know that the pre-tribulation rapture to heaven doctrine came from a vision .

No, I am studying it with an understanding of the enemy realm, not from their point of view.

It helps to know who the players are in the enemy realm, their doctrines and such to understand who is behind the harlot, the beast, the false prophet and the dragon. Why is it that the anti-christ is behind the kingdom not Satan? Most Christians have very little understanding of any of the principalities involved. They just assume who and what Satan is and based many things on false doctrines common in the church, myths about who and what Satan is. They generally haven't got a clue what the four angels bound at the Euphrates have to do with the entire situation.

Do you even realize that successive kingdoms are ruled over by different principalities in a time-sharing basis? Do you understand the significance of the winged lion verses the bear verses the leopard from Daniel's empire dream? Do you know which pagan deities are associated with which animal? Why is the lion winged then has its wings removed? What is the significance of having the 'heart of a man'? Why does the earth swallow up the waters from the dragon? Who are the OT dragons? Do you even have a clue who/what Apollyon is? What is the significance of the locust from the abyss? Who/what are the 1/3 'stars' that are pulled down by the tail of the dragon? Just a hint, this is NOT a reference to some mythical pre-adamic rebellion that took 1/3 of the angels into that rebellion.

Most Christians follow a false concept that the demonic realm is populated by fallen angels which is utterly false. ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period.
 
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Major1

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It isn't hard. My mom is a major prophecy author. Revelation has been a topic in the family most of my life. I helped type set her 1st Revelation book as a teen. I'm 53 now. She sees the judgments as physical events and comes at it from her background as a geologist instead of spiritualizing everything.

As a matter of fact, she is revising her book 'Rightly Dividing the Book of Revelation' (by J.E. Becker) now to put out a 2nd edition.

Now we don't agree on all aspects of Revelation but that is because of my area of specialization is so different from hers. My area of study has always been the OT paganism in opposition to Yah and Israel so I see different symbolism pertaining to those principalities. For example I don't equate the 'harlot' as a system or entity like the RCC but as a principality, specifically the one worshiped by the Canaanites by the title Ashtoreth/Astarte who equates to the Roman goddess Diana Luciferah of Ephesus. The original queen Jezebel was the high priestess of that 'goddess' as well as a witch.

My perspective was shaped by my personal experiences battling modern goddess worship witchcraft and the things I learned in those conflicts. I knew a modern day high priestess of Ashtoreth that I met in 1985. She was to be the next worldwide high priestess of Ashtoreth. I spent many years researching the biblical references to account for the things I learned 1st hand so I interpret Revelation through that knowledge.

Good to know.

Have you done any work on the tying in of Ashtoreth/Diana/Isis/Cupid to the wife of the Babylonian king, Nimrod in Genesis 10......."Semeramis" ?

It seems to me that all of this worship of a woman and child (RCC theology) begins with her.

We see in the Revelation that there are TWO Babylonians destroyed.

Chapter 17 is a "system" and chapter 18 is a literal "City".
 
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DennisTate

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Isaiah 66:5-6 fits with the Coming of Jesus in Glory to defeats His enemies a the End of the Tribulation.
Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:29-31

True.......
but Messiah Yeshua - Jesus may choose to still somewhat hide.....
from obvious view.... behind a very human Cyrus type of Christian political leader.....
Isaiah 45:1,4,5 has intriguing implications to say the least.........

In at least some sense..... something of a metaphorical rapture, a raising up, of
the metaphorical Bride of Messiah has been taking place since November 9 and I recently read a message
that indicates that October 2017.... could be a time of a real outpouring of the Holy Spirit... that at first
manifests as judgment of the house of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

President Donald Trump = modern Cyrus prophecy?
 
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Yahu_

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Good to know.

Have you done any work on the tying in of Ashtoreth/Diana/Isis/Cupid to the wife of the Babylonian king, Nimrod in Genesis 10......."Semeramis" ?

It seems to me that all of this worship of a woman and child (RCC theology) begins with her.

We see in the Revelation that there are TWO Babylonians destroyed.

Chapter 17 is a "system" and chapter 18 is a literal "City".

Yes, I am familiar with Hisop's 'Two Babylons' but it is VERY outdated and full of errors but has an occasional nugget of truth. It was written in the 1800's and a lot of new material has been uncovered and translated since then.

First off, Ashtoreth was Nimrod's mother (and Sidon's mother) but later his consort to keep the Nephilim bloodlines pure. Hisop confuses Nimrod as the sun god but that was his uncle, his mother's twin brother. They were descent of the leader of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, the source of the post flood nephilim, the pagan gods of Babel. Those 3 (Ashtoreth, Molech, Baal) account for the spirits behind the harlot, the false prophet and the anti-christ in Revelation.

Now Daniel's dream of the empires teaches an important concept. Each of the animals, the winged lion, the bear, the leopard are animal symbols of each of those pagan deities. Lion statues lined the way to the sun gods temple. A bear resided in the sacred grove of Ashtoreth and Nimrod means 'hunts with leopards'. That dream in Daniel shows that successive empires are ruled by successive principalities in a time sharing bases. The leopard's empire was divided to the 'four winds/spirits'. The anti-christ spirit, as one of those four spirits, took over the Syrian quarter. Sun god worship is all about time measurements and time sharing. It is all about who has authority when, the sun god by day, the moon goddess by night, as the lesser and greater lights. The signs of the Zodiak determine which principalities have what authority in what season... But the point is, the leopard rules the kingdom after the bear, ie the anti-christ has his turn to rule after the harlot. Revelation is about the changing of the authority structure in the demonic realm as the next ruling principality comes to power but Yah intervenes. The four angels that caused the post-flood nephilim corruption are let loose (as well as opening of the Abyss to let out the Gen 6 angels that sinned) and the spiritual realms are in chaos with a kingdom divided against itself.

There are a few major false doctrines in the church that prevent rightly dividing Revelation. For example, the concept that Lucifer was one of the greatest angels that rebelled with 1/3 of the angels in some mythical pre-adamic rebellion and they populate the demonic realms. That concept is entirely false and was spread by Augustine into Christianity as a myth. People interpret scripture through a bias to that concept and come to false conclusions. ALL fallen angels are in prison and none of them are let out to influence the world until the time of the tribulation. Both the pre-flood Watchers of Gen 6 and the four bound at Babel get let back out to see what the spirits of their offspring have done.

That definitely puts a different twist on the interpretation of Revelation.
 
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Major1

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Yes, I am familiar with Hisop's 'Two Babylons' but it is VERY outdated and full of errors but has an occasional nugget of truth. It was written in the 1800's and a lot of new material has been uncovered and translated since then.

First off, Ashtoreth was Nimrod's mother (and Sidon's mother) but later his consort to keep the Nephilim bloodlines pure. Hisop confuses Nimrod as the sun god but that was his uncle, his mother's twin brother. They were descent of the leader of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, the source of the post flood nephilim, the pagan gods of Babel. Those 3 (Ashtoreth, Molech, Baal) account for the spirits behind the harlot, the false prophet and the anti-christ in Revelation.

Now Daniel's dream of the empires teaches an important concept. Each of the animals, the winged lion, the bear, the leopard are animal symbols of each of those pagan deities. Lion statues lined the way to the sun gods temple. A bear resided in the sacred grove of Ashtoreth and Nimrod means 'hunts with leopards'. That dream in Daniel shows that successive empires are ruled by successive principalities in a time sharing bases. The leopard's empire was divided to the 'four winds/spirits'. The anti-christ spirit, as one of those four spirits, took over the Syrian quarter. Sun god worship is all about time measurements and time sharing. It is all about who has authority when, the sun god by day, the moon goddess by night, as the lesser and greater lights. The signs of the Zodiak determine which principalities have what authority in what season... But the point is, the leopard rules the kingdom after the bear, ie the anti-christ has his turn to rule after the harlot. Revelation is about the changing of the authority structure in the demonic realm as the next ruling principality comes to power but Yah intervenes. The four angels that caused the post-flood nephilim corruption are let loose (as well as opening of the Abyss to let out the Gen 6 angels that sinned) and the spiritual realms are in chaos with a kingdom divided against itself.

There are a few major false doctrines in the church that prevent rightly dividing Revelation. For example, the concept that Lucifer was one of the greatest angels that rebelled with 1/3 of the angels in some mythical pre-adamic rebellion and they populate the demonic realms. That concept is entirely false and was spread by Augustine into Christianity as a myth. People interpret scripture through a bias to that concept and come to false conclusions. ALL fallen angels are in prison and none of them are let out to influence the world until the time of the tribulation. Both the pre-flood Watchers of Gen 6 and the four bound at Babel get let back out to see what the spirits of their offspring have done.

That definitely puts a different twist on the interpretation of Revelation.

I agree about Hisops theology. However I was not referring to him.

Have you considered the work done by others on the same subject of Simeramis?
Bryce Self has done a lot of work on her. A couple of others are George Foryan,
and Yasrayl Hawkins.

Also, Dr. Harry Ironside did several papers on her.

According to many scholars, Semiramis - The Wife of Nimrod is also known under various aliases, depending on the nation and culture of the times........
Allilah or Allah
Ariadne
Astarte
Cybele; Goddess with the 12 stars; celibacy is required of her priests
Diane
Ishtar; Babylonian sun-goddess
Isis; Egyptian sun-goddess
Laksjmi
Lady Liberty
Rhea; Goddess of the hunt
Sin; the moongod(dess)
Venus; Goddess of Love)
 
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Postvieww

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No, I am studying it with an understanding of the enemy realm, not from their point of view.

It helps to know who the players are in the enemy realm, their doctrines and such to understand who is behind the harlot, the beast, the false prophet and the dragon. Why is it that the anti-christ is behind the kingdom not Satan? Most Christians have very little understanding of any of the principalities involved. They just assume who and what Satan is and based many things on false doctrines common in the church, myths about who and what Satan is. They generally haven't got a clue what the four angels bound at the Euphrates have to do with the entire situation.

Do you even realize that successive kingdoms are ruled over by different principalities in a time-sharing basis? Do you understand the significance of the winged lion verses the bear verses the leopard from Daniel's empire dream? Do you know which pagan deities are associated with which animal? Why is the lion winged then has its wings removed? What is the significance of having the 'heart of a man'? Why does the earth swallow up the waters from the dragon? Who are the OT dragons? Do you even have a clue who/what Apollyon is? What is the significance of the locust from the abyss? Who/what are the 1/3 'stars' that are pulled down by the tail of the dragon? Just a hint, this is NOT a reference to some mythical pre-adamic rebellion that took 1/3 of the angels into that rebellion.

Most Christians follow a false concept that the demonic realm is populated by fallen angels which is utterly false. ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period.

Yahu said:

Most Christians follow a false concept that the demonic realm is populated by fallen angels which is utterly false. ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period.

All fallen angels are absolutely not in chains! Michael and the “the man in linen” that appeared to Daniel had to overcome the prince of Grecia, a fallen angel.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The sin committed by the angels in chains is outlined in Jude 7. All fallen angels did not commit this sin.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7-9 has not yet taken place, therefore all fallen angels are not in chains.
 
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There were TALL men then just as there are today. If you read the actual words of Genesis 6 you will see that the "Giants" already existed on the earth and were not the offspring of the marriages of demons and humans.

That thought comes from Hollywood where they have come up with another way to make a movie and to discredit the Creation of God where man is made in the likeness of God.

The "Sons of God" refers to the Godly line of Seth, the 3rd son of Adam, whose children intermarried with the daughters of men, who were the ungodly line of humans through Cain.

"Mighty Men" simply means in the Hebrew......
"Men of renown. a reputation, known of".

Major1 said:

The "Sons of God" refers to the Godly line of Seth, the 3rd son of Adam, whose children intermarried with the daughters of men, who were the ungodly line of humans through Cain.

There is no scripture to support this statement. If you have any verses to back this up please post them.

 
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Yahu_

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Yahu said:

Most Christians follow a false concept that the demonic realm is populated by fallen angels which is utterly false. ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period.

All fallen angels are absolutely not in chains! Michael and the “the man in linen” that appeared to Daniel had to overcome the prince of Grecia, a fallen angel.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The sin committed by the angels in chains is outlined in Jude 7. All fallen angels did not commit this sin.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7-9 has not yet taken place, therefore all fallen angels are not in chains.

You are making many assumptions, false assumptions IMO.

First off you assume a principality, ie 'prince of Grecia', is a fallen angel. Then you assume the reference in Rev 12 applies to angels other then those let out of prison by that time. The ONLY angels we know of that have fallen are the pre-flood watchers of Gen 6 and four others that are bound at the Euphrates. Jude references the angels of Gen 6 from the story in the book of Enoch then goes on the quote directly from 1 Enoch 1. Peter references these same pre-flood angels in 2 Pet 2:4 and says they are in TARTARUS, the Greek term for the prison of the immortal Titans from the previous age. Tartarus is a prison.

Your myths don't hold up to scripture.
 
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Yahu_

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I agree about Hisops theology. However I was not referring to him.

Have you considered the work done by others on the same subject of Simeramis?
Bryce Self has done a lot of work on her. A couple of others are George Foryan,
and Yasrayl Hawkins.

Also, Dr. Harry Ironside did several papers on her.

According to many scholars, Semiramis - The Wife of Nimrod is also known under various aliases, depending on the nation and culture of the times........
Allilah or Allah
Ariadne
Astarte
Cybele; Goddess with the 12 stars; celibacy is required of her priests
Diane
Ishtar; Babylonian sun-goddess
Isis; Egyptian sun-goddess
Laksjmi
Lady Liberty
Rhea; Goddess of the hunt
Sin; the moongod(dess)
Venus; Goddess of Love)

No, I'm not familiar with George Foryan or Yasrayl Hawkins but I am familiar with many of Ashtoreth's other names/titles in several languages. For example, Diana Luciferah was a Roman combination of both Aphrodite and Artemis in different stages of her life. She was the same goddess but worshiped under different attributes at different stages of her life. The Greeks split those personas into different individuals but the Romans knew she was the same individual. So yes, she is equated as a 'goddess of the hunt' (Artemis) as well as the goddess of fertility/erotica (Aphrodite). She is the twin of the sun god so she can be associated with the sun but is more common to be a moon goddess with ties to the sea. The moon influences the sea, ie tides. She is also associated with the planet Venus, that is her star. In India she is worshiped under the name Kali. She is even two of the faces of the triune goddess of witchcraft, the maiden and the mother while Asherah is the crone aspect. Astarte is a common name in the Canaanite but the Hebrew uses different vowel pointing to imply 'shameful'. Instead of meaning 'star', in the Hebrew it implies 'shameful star' by altering the vowel pattern used. And yes, Isis is also a reference to her as well.

Now originally Anath was associated with Venus but was later displaced. Astarte/Ashtoreth took over many of the attributes/symbols of Anath. Anath in the Canaanite pantheon was Neith in Egypt was Athena in the Greek pantheons. Anath is referenced several places in scripture, Bethanath, Anathoth in place names and in Joseph's wife Asceneth (worshiper of Neith). There is even a 'son of Anath' that is one of the might men that was a judge of Israel.

Another interesting study is of Asherah, the mother of Ashtoreth. Asherah is the Canaanite 'mother earth', the direct mother of Ashtoreth. She was Ki to the Summerians. The Anunaki (Anu-heavens and ki-earth). In scripture you original name was Na'amah, the sister of Tubal-cain. She has a title that confuses the scholars of 'she who treads upon the sea' while being a earth deity. They don't understand the epithet but if you know she was Noah's wife, it makes perfect sense. A quick check of wikipedia of Anu shows two consorts Ki and Nammu/Namma. What they don't understand is 'earth' is just a nickname. She is both Gaia and Leto in the Greek myths. Asherah worship was just ancestor worship of the mother of all mankind and the gods.

Some references in the Canaanite myths have El and his wife Asherah and their 70 sons as the top level of gods. In that case, they are just referencing Noah and his wife Na'amah with the 70 national founding fathers. Even in scripture, some of the references to El are not a reference to Yahweh but to Noah. El just means 'the mighty one' and has to be taken in context.
 
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Yahu_

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The "Sons of God" refers to the Godly line of Seth, the 3rd son of Adam, whose children intermarried with the daughters of men, who were the ungodly line of humans through Cain.
That was a doctrine spread by Augustine because by the classical Greek philosophy spiritual beings couldn't take on physical form so he pushed this doctrine so they didn't alienate any with a classical education.

Because of that doctrinal stand, he also opposed the book of Enoch because it contradicted this doctrine. He also wanted to exclude Jude from the canon because it quoted Enoch.

Because the RCC basically took Augustine's doctrines as gospel truth and many still hold to that error.
 
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Psalm3704

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Riberra, we have seen off Straightshot and Psalms 3057, now Major1 has found that the rapture theory simply does not have any acceptable scriptural proof.

Don't you ever get tire embarrassing yourself constantly making preposterous accusations?

I've only been away for a week from this forum to celebrate the holidays. Sure beats reading all the nonsense you keep posting.

And what in the world is Psalms 3057?

What I hope and pray for all who have been fooled by the idea of a rapture, is that the light bulb will go on for them and they will realize the truth of what will happen. God does plan for the good of His people and we can expect amazing blessings, as we fulfil our destiny on earth.

Oh what a surprise, more nonsense. Oh lookie, a christian that doesn't believe in the rapture!










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Psalm3704

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Wrong guess!
Having written over 500 articles on prophecy from all the Bible, I have a good understanding of what God plans for our future. We are given all the information, just a matter of placing it into a coherent and logical sequence.
The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation lays the foundation, culminating in the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
There is no rapture to heaven for us Christians mentioned anywhere.

500 articles and you still don't get it? It only takes one single article to prove you wrong.

At the sounding of a trumpet (Hebrews 12:19), the church of the firstfruit is raptured into (Hebrews 12:22-24) just before the tribulation when God will shake heaven and earth (Hebrews 12:26) by fire (Hebrews 12:29).

Hebrews 12:19-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And I've seen you ignore other people's posting on Revelation 7:9-17 as well. You just don't get it.












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Psalm3704

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Their belief is that Jesus have built mansions fully equipped with giant TV screen in Heaven so that they will be able to watch comfortably the tribulation happening on Earth

Why do you need a giant TV to watch the events of Revelation when it plays out while you're in the spirit?

Can you show us where in the bible it said John had to document everything he saw watching a giant TV screen while in the spirit when writing the book of Revelation?

Riberra, your mind is too carnal. When you're in the spiritual realm, there are things you can do there that you don't have to and cannot do here. You can travel at the speed of thought (Daniel 9:23), you can manipulate and travel through time (Revelation 4:1), you can be there as it happens and watch the events unfold without having to sit in front of a giant TV screen (Revelation 17:1).










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You are making many assumptions, false assumptions IMO.

First off you assume a principality, ie 'prince of Grecia', is a fallen angel. Then you assume the reference in Rev 12 applies to angels other then those let out of prison by that time. The ONLY angels we know of that have fallen are the pre-flood watchers of Gen 6 and four others that are bound at the Euphrates. Jude references the angels of Gen 6 from the story in the book of Enoch then goes on the quote directly from 1 Enoch 1. Peter references these same pre-flood angels in 2 Pet 2:4 and says they are in TARTARUS, the Greek term for the prison of the immortal Titans from the previous age. Tartarus is a prison.

Your myths don't hold up to scripture.

Yahu said:

You are making many assumptions, false assumptions IMO.

We all make assumptions, let's compare what mine are based on as compared to yours.

Yahu said:

First off you assume a principality, ie 'prince of Grecia', is a fallen angel.

I assume the prince of Grecia is a fallen angel because it takes two angels of God to overcome him, and angels of God do not fight each other. Would you assume that to be a human prince? It appears you have assumed the prince of Grecia cannot be a fallen angel, what do you base that on?

Yahu said:

Then you assume the reference in Rev 12 applies to angels other then those let out of prison by that time.

You assume the angels of Rev 12 were in prison to be let out. Nothing in the text even hints at that. We are told they are cast down to the earth . Do you assume they were in chains of darkness in heaven ?

Yahu said:

The ONLY angels we know of that have fallen are the pre-flood watchers of Gen 6 and four others that are bound at the Euphrates. Jude references the angels of Gen 6 from the story in the book of Enoch then goes on the quote directly from 1 Enoch 1. Peter references these same pre-flood angels in 2 Pet 2:4 and says they are in TARTARUS, the Greek term for the prison of the immortal Titans from the previous age. Tartarus is a prison.

2 Peter 2:4 tells us the angels that sinned (Jude explains what that sin was) were sent down to (Tartarus) and held in chains until their judgement, Jude 6 says they left their first estate and are held until judgement. Revelation 12 is very different Michael and his angels cast out Satan and his angels with no mention of chains of darkness thus from the information in the text I assume satan’s angels are not bound in chains since this event is in our future and nothing says they are bound at this point. Do you assume they are the same fallen angels that have been bound for thousands of years already? This event is in our future because the text tells us in verse 12 he has but a short time I would take that time to be the time of great tribulation.

Yahu said:

Your myths don't hold up to scripture.

You speak of immortal titans from the previous age and say what I have presented is myth???


In all fairness we may have some agreement here but that remains to be seen until I have heard more about what you believe about these “titans”.


Really my friend, from your response to my post I do not see where you have much room to correct me on making assumptions!


I still maintain “ALL”: fallen angels are not in chains, and your assumption that they are is incorrect, IMHO.
 
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Major1

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Major1 said:

The "Sons of God" refers to the Godly line of Seth, the 3rd son of Adam, whose children intermarried with the daughters of men, who were the ungodly line of humans through Cain.

There is no scripture to support this statement. If you have any verses to back this up please post them.


Of course there is no verse in the Scripture that says that. I thought that was well know and what I posted was my opinion which I thought was obvious.

We do however know that in Genesis 4:26........
"And to Seth, to him also was born a son, and he called his name Enos, then began men to call upon the name of the Lord".

The other explanation being that that these beings were from the union of fallen angels and humans is impossible Biblically.

When Jesus, was answering the question put to him about marriage in heaven, (Matthew 22:30) says that when we get there we will be like the angels, who neither marry nor have children. Jesus, the Master teacher, God in the flesh said that we just like angels would be ASEXUAL.

Now you can disagree with me all you like but I did not say those words in Matthew 22:30 so your argument will have to be with Jesus and not me.

It seems to me logically and with applied common sense that it would be unlikely that God have would allowed this intermingling, even if it was physically possible.

THINK for just a moment!!!!!

"If" it was possible and there had been a mingling of demonic blood with human blood through sexual contact.......that means that in the physical line of the Lord Jesus Christ there would have been Satanic blood in Mary.

That my friend means that NO ONE could ever be saved.
 
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Yahu said:

Most Christians follow a false concept that the demonic realm is populated by fallen angels which is utterly false. ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period.

All fallen angels are absolutely not in chains! Michael and the “the man in linen” that appeared to Daniel had to overcome the prince of Grecia, a fallen angel.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The sin committed by the angels in chains is outlined in Jude 7. All fallen angels did not commit this sin.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7-9 has not yet taken place, therefore all fallen angels are not in chains.

You said........
"ALL fallen angels are in prison and are not even let back out to interact with mankind until the tribulation period."

If there is a Bible verse to prove that would you please post it?

IF all fallen angels are in prison, who is it that is afflicting the man in Mark 5:2............
"And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit."

Then in verse #9 we see........
"And he asked him, What is thy name? And HE answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many."

Again, if THEY ARE ALL LOCKED UP, who is this in Luke 4:41.........

"And DEMONS also came out of many, crying, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ."
 
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Yahu_

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If there is a Bible verse to prove that would you please post it?

Have you read the books of Enoch? Even if you don't consider them original writings of Enoch but inter-testamental Jewish writings, they provide the concepts from the Jewish perspective. Both Jude and Peter followed that knowledge. Jude even after making his statement about the angels that sinned quotes directly out of 1 Enoch chapter one. In Enoch it is clearly presented that 'evil spirits' are the spirits of the giants and mighty men, the nephilim. They are the spirits of the offspring of angels, not fallen angels themselves.

You also have the parable of the wheat and tares. The tares are the 'seed of Satan' sown into the same field as the 'son of man'. That field is referenced in the story of Balaam and the talking donkey. Do some research on the 'Field of Zophim', ie 'Field of the Watchers' that is on Mt Pisgah. Oh and btw, Pisgah is a reference to a sex act with 'mother earth', the goddess Asherah. A 'field' in Hebrew is an idiom for 'the womb'. It is the place the seed is sown whether that seed is a plant seed or a human/angelic seed. Watchers are fully defined in Enoch but also attributed in scripture. One scriptural reference to watchers are of women with wings like a stork, ie angelic or at least, winged beings.

In Gen it is the 'seed of the serpent' in conflict with the 'seed of the woman'. In Isa 14, the 'fiery flying serpent' is the fruit/child/offspring of the cockatrice. This is the same passage that calls Lucifer 'ben Shachar' and Shachar is another Canaanite deity that is called a 'son of El' and mentioned in Job 38 as the individual that shakes the wicked from the skirts of 'the earth', ie Asherah.

Even the ancient Babylonian equates two individuals among the pagan gods as the 'adudicators'. They are Hadad/Adad, the thunderer and his son Shemesh the sun god.

Proverbs 9 is a good scriptural reference that equates demons as spirits of the dead.

Pr 9:
13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.
14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,
15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:
16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

The Hebrew word used here for 'the dead' means 'shades/spirits of the dead' and states their abode is Sheol but they are demons that infest her house. She is following the pagan ritualistic sexual practices of the Baalim worship. Those demons are specifically called 'spirits of the dead', NOT fallen angels.

Then of course you have Peter's reference to Tartarus.

2 Pet 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Note Peter ties this verse about the angels with Noah and the flood. This is a reference to the pre-flood angels that sinned. The Greek word used for 'cast down to hell' is the ONLY reference in scripture to Tartarus, the 'lowest hell' that in the Greek was the prison of the immortal Titans of the previous age. In the Greek, the Olympians where on the side of right and helped to imprison the evil Titans and locked them in prison in Tartarus. Only the most wicked individuals were asigned to this area of Hades in prison. Why would Peter use the term Tartarus unless he is equated the Greek immortal Titans to the pre-flood angels that sinned?

Now the passage that many people use to suggest a rebellion of 1/3 of the angels is from Revelation.

Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

These 'stars of heaven/sky' are not Yah's heavenly host but what the OT calls the 'hosts of heaven/sky' that are part of the pagan worship. It has MANY references. Here are a few.

De 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

2Ki 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

Note who they are linked with the sun god, moon goddess, Baal, and the planets (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, ...) the pagan gods.

And all the events after the start of Rev 4 are FUTURE events, not past events. That event takes place DURING the tribulation. It is NOT a reference to some pre-adamic mythical rebellion.

I can go on and on giving many references. Even the name Lucifer is a Latin epithet of the pagan sun god that equates the the Greek epithet Pheobus as in Pheobus Apollo, or Apollyon the king of the abyss. Lucifer is NOT some mighty fallen angel but the pagan sun god who we would commonly know as the Greek god Apollo, the son of Zeus. Zeus was the Satan cast down 'as lightning'. He was Adad/Hadad, the thunderer that was the 'adjudicator' along with his son Shemesh (sun god). Zeus was the Canaanite Shachar, 'the Morning' that Lucifer is the 'son of'. The 'stars of heaven/sky' that Lucifer was setting his throne above was not to take Yah's authority but to take over his father's role as adjudicator, ie Satan.

Don't forget that dominion over the earth was given to MAN in the garden, not to angels. Isa 14 classifies Lucifer 'as a MAN'.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms.

Realize he is on earth trying to elevate himself. Not in heaven being cast down.

Why is it that people pull verses 12-15 totally out of context and ignore the very next verse and the rest of the prophecy? Oh, and the word translated as 'heaven' is Shammayim. It means 'heavens/sky'. The above passage is just as valid to be translated as 'I will ascend into the sky' as in a reference to the Tower of Babel, not Yah's 3rd Heaven. This passage is about the shameful king of Babel being cast down and dying then descending into hell. This is a rebellion on earth, not in heaven.
 
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Yahu_

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Of course there is no verse in the Scripture that says that. I thought that was well know and what I posted was my opinion which I thought was obvious.

We do however know that in Genesis 4:26........
"And to Seth, to him also was born a son, and he called his name Enos, then began men to call upon the name of the Lord".

The other explanation being that that these beings were from the union of fallen angels and humans is impossible Biblically.
No it isn't. It is impossible according to Greek philosophy hence the origin of that ridiculous doctrine.

Here is the Jewish position from the book of Enoch.

Enoch chapter 15 said:
And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: ‘Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.

And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?

And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.

Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.

But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.

Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.]

And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences.

And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

Jude quotes directly from this book after he mentions the angels that left their estate then mentions the writings of Enoch.
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
...
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


The above quote is out of this same book in chapter 1.
Enoch Chapter 1 said:
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame,

And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

But with the righteous He will make peace.

And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them.

And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed.

And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them.

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

So you can see Jude references the angels that left their estate then quotes from the book that tells the story of those angels and what happens to them.
 
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