Who is a Jew or the nation Israel

danny ski said:

Are you sure it was only a name change?

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What else is there... God changed his name..

Josephus said:

A Jew is anyone who is a convert to Judaism or matriarchal descendant of a convert.

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There are atheist Jews.

Shibolet said:

I think the NAB is a Catholic translation, am I right? Now, regarding the breaking of bread with Abram or eating of bread, neither occurred. Abram neither broke bread with Melchizedek nor ate with him. It is not in the JPS and I doubt if you have it the NAB. The JPS says, "And King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was a priest of God Most High."

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Yes, the NAB is a Catholic translation and I am a Hebrew Catholic so perhaps I am biased. However, I particularly like it because most other English texts butcher certain verses in favor of the Christian position, whereas the NAB is truer to the Hebrew.

In the verse that you quote above, "he" refers to the most recent Proper noun, which is Melchizedek. So it is Melchizedek who is the priest of the God Most High. This is the position of Orthodox Judaism; Chabad.org identifies him as a priest of the God Most High.

visionary said:

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace.

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Of course! It had to be by Paul! Here is the true translation from the JPS:
"And king Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine; (obviously to Abraham) he was a priest of God Most High. Then Melchizedek blessed Abram of God Most High. Even Melchizedek acknowledged the connection of Abram with HaShem the Most High. And Abram gave Melchizedek (at random) the tenth part of the booty from the battle with the kings.

Abram never liked any thing free especially from a pagan priest of the Canaanites. When he bargained for a burial place to bury his wife Sara, he loved the cave of Machpelah and wanted to buy it from the pagan Hittite in Kiriath-Arba who insisted that Abraham took it for free. That was a no no for Abraham! Then the bargain came down to 400 shekels of silver. (Genesis 23:1-20) And the cave of Machpelah passed to Abraham's propriety.

There is something else Visionary, which you will startle to hear if you read Psalm 110:4. That's what the Lord said to David: "You are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree" (and not according to the order of Melchizedek) as you perhaps have from the KJV. That's why I love the JPS. No need of Christian preconceived notions.

Open Heart said:

Yes, the NAB is a Catholic translation and I am a Hebrew Catholic so perhaps I am biased. However, I particularly like it because most other English texts butcher certain verses in favor of the Christian position, whereas the NAB is truer to the Hebrew.

In the verse that you quote above, "he" refers to the most recent Proper noun, which is Melchizedek. So it is Melchizedek who is the priest of the God Most High. This is the position of Orthodox Judaism; Chabad.org identifies him as a priest of the God Most High.

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I beg to disagree Open Heart; the issue under discussion is about who was the priest of God Most High. Melchizedek or Abraham. The conjunction "and" was forged into the text probably to establish Melchizedek as the one. If that conjunction is removed the priesthood of God Most High returns to Abraham. Then, if you ask me, there are more evidences for Abraham than for Melchizedek if you use the help of Logic.

I am fascinated by your presentation but because I have held the other position for so long, there are a lot of texts and understandings that need re-arranging before I can come camp on your position.

Heb 5:10 "have been called out by God as a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek." So you are saying this should have read by the order of Abraham?

The Priest King of Salem is pictured as a heavenly deliverer in The Dead Sea Scrolls. One passage reads; "And Melchizedek will avenge the vengeance of the judgments of God..."

In this passage, he is seen against an eschatological background. It is by his strength he will judge the "holy ones of God". This Priest/King is also said to be the one who will save man against Belial/Satan.

"And your Elohim is Melchizedek, who will save them from the had of Belial."

While no authenticity can be deduced from research as to the origins of the book. It is ancient Jewish literature that gives us some glimpses into the mind of the Jew back then when the book was written.

The Second Book of Enoch is considered to be part of the Apocalyptic Literature, and is from an unknown Jewish author. Dates range anywhere from the 1st century BC, to the 10th century CE (that is AD). The late 1st century AD is preferred by many scholars. The section pertaining to the mysterious Priest follows the succession of the priestly line stemming from Enoch of the Old Testament. In regard to Melchezedek, this little folklore is written.

In the "Exaltation of Melchizedek", he is said to have been born of a virgin named Sofonim, the wife of Nir, a brother to Noah. In this account, Sofonim dies in childbirth, and he is born after her death.
At the time of his birth, he is fully developed physically, clothed, and speaking, and sits beside the body of his mother. He is said to have been blessing the Lord, and received the badge of priesthood.
Forty days later, the archangel Gabriel takes him to the Garden of Eden, to escape the upcoming Flood . Thus, he is spared from having to board Noah's ark.

From the Nag Hammadi Library, there is some references from the Gnostic Gospels propose that this is, in fact, Yeshua who is Melchezek. Many of the lines from this text parallel those from the Bible in their descriptions and references to Yeshua. In this narrative, he lives, preaches, dies, and is resurrected. "The Coming of the Son of God Melchizedek" speaks of his returning to earth. He is supported by the gods, and is viewed as a priest-king who bestows justice mercifully to his faithful subjects. Which is consistent with the book of Hebrews.

Now I am presenting material which is arguably full of errors and not good sources in biblical accuracy, but it is suggestive of the minds of those back then who wrote what they understood. The theme with regard to Melchezedek remains the same. On this point, I have not found verification of your position in any ancient material.

In fact, even when I do go to Jewish midrash, I only find that The Midrash associates him with Shem, Noah's son . Shem predates Moses and Aaron, yet is said to have been a priest. Melchizedek was said to have instructed Abram in the Torah, and handed down the robes of Adam to Abram. He was clearly acting the role of priest in his encounter with Abram.

He received Abram's tithe, one-tenth of all Abram possessed. He also blessed Abram, yet he blessed Abram first, before God. The rabbi's hold that perhaps the priestly line was to originally descend from Melchizedek, yet because he first blessed Abram, God brought the priestly line forth from Abram's descendants instead. Nevertheless, this blessing brought much prosperity upon Abram, Isaac, and Jacob.

It still shows the Melchezedek is the High Priest and He did receive tithe from Abram and Abram was blessed by Melchezedek, the High Priest.

in regards to the theology of Shem being the Melchezedek priest, there is some interesting aspects one must consider. There is a lot of ifs with that.

If the genealogy of Gen 11 does not possess gaps, then Shem would have lived until thirty five years after Abraham's death, dying at 600 years old.

If Shem is indeed Melchizedek, the name is then used as a title, not an actual name. This title would seem to fit the biblical account of the Godliness and righteousness ascribed to Shem.

The following scenario is true then sometime after the tower of Babel, Shem, under divine guidance, moved to the place where God would one day establish His throne, in Jerusalem. There he ruled as a peaceful sage, a "King of Righteousness", a King in Salem.

It might also explain who passed down the patriarchal records as it is conceivable for a priest/king Shem would give it first to Terah, then to Isaac, after Abraham's death. This might explain why there are no sections in Gen named "The generations of Abraham".

Genesis 11:10-11:27 "The generations of Terah", recorded by Terah.
Genesis 11:27-25:19 "The generations of Isaac", recorded by Isaac, the son of Abraham.

In this respect, the eternal priesthood of Melchizedek can be viewed as referring to the line of the promised "seed of the woman". This seed was handed down from Adam, through Shem, through Arphaxad (son of Shem), to Abram, through Judah, son of Jacob, and eventually to Yeshua, a descendant of the tribe of Judah. Adam, thus, would be the first priest in this order, as he had no mother nor father, nor was he born, but created by God from the dust. Yeshua, then, is recognized as the last priest in this order. He does not possess any descendants, neither does He have an end of life. Yeshua always said, his gospel was like a "seed".

visionary said:

in regards to the theology of Shem being the Melchezedek priest, there is some interesting aspects one must consider. There is a lot of ifs with that.

If the genealogy of Gen 11 does not possess gaps, then Shem would have lived until thirty five years after Abraham's death, dying at 600 years old.

If Shem is indeed Melchizedek, the name is then used as a title, not an actual name. This title would seem to fit the biblical account of the Godliness and righteousness ascribed to Shem.

The following scenario is true then sometime after the tower of Babel, Shem, under divine guidance, moved to the place where God would one day establish His throne, in Jerusalem. There he ruled as a peaceful sage, a "King of Righteousness", a King in Salem.

It might also explain who passed down the patriarchal records as it is conceivable for a priest/king Shem would give it first to Terah, then to Isaac, after Abraham's death. This might explain why there are no sections in Gen named "The generations of Abraham".

Genesis 11:10-11:27 "The generations of Terah", recorded by Terah.
Genesis 11:27-25:19 "The generations of Isaac", recorded by Isaac, the son of Abraham.

In this respect, the eternal priesthood of Melchizedek can be viewed as referring to the line of the promised "seed of the woman". This seed was handed down from Adam, through Shem, through Arphaxad (son of Shem), to Abram, through Judah, son of Jacob, and eventually to Yeshua, a descendant of the tribe of Judah. Adam, thus, would be the first priest in this order, as he had no mother nor father, nor was he born, but created by God from the dust. Yeshua, then, is recognized as the last priest in this order. He does not possess any descendants, neither does He have an end of life. Yeshua always said, his gospel was like a "seed".

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You have mentioned above that "and eventually to Yeshua a descendant of the Tribe of Judah." I have said this before and I'll say again, I will be glad to admit that Yeshua was a descendant from the Tribe of Judah, but through Joseph, his biological father. Well, was he a biological son of Joseph or was he not? According to Mat. 1:18, he was not. So, he could not have been from the Tribe of Judah. Because of his mother Mary, he was a Jewish man but a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. That's when one cannot bake his cake and eat it too. BTW, that's not fair at all to exonerate Joseph from claiming Yeshua as his son.

Shibolet said:

You have mentioned above that "and eventually to Yeshua a descendant of the Tribe of Judah." I have said this before and I'll say again, I will be glad to admit that Yeshua was a descendant from the Tribe of Judah, but through Joseph, his biological father. Well, was he a biological son of Joseph or was he not? According to Mat. 1:18, he was not. So, he could not have been from the Tribe of Judah. Because of his mother Mary, he was a Jewish man but a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. That's when one cannot bake his cake and eat it too. BTW, that's not fair at all to exonerate Joseph from claiming Yeshua as his son.

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Mary's tribes are both Levite and Judah. Jewish heritage are passed on through the mother. As far as God is concerned, Yeshua's family tree leads to the throne of David. He will reign over the house of Jacob.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?

2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. ….. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”

Luke 1:69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,

There is an old prophecy that rules out Joseph being the biological father of Yeshua. God pronounced a curse on Jacob’s ancestor Jeconiah, declaring his descendants ineligible to sit upon the throne of David.

Jeremiah 22:30 Thus says the Lord: “Write this man down as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days, for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”

visionary said:

Mary's tribes are both Levite and Judah. Jewish heritage are passed on through the mother. As far as God is concerned, Yeshua's family tree leads to the throne of David. He will reign over the house of Jacob.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?

2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. ….. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’”

Luke 1:69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David,

There is an old prophecy that rules out Joseph being the biological father of Yeshua. God pronounced a curse on Jacob’s ancestor Jeconiah, declaring his descendants ineligible to sit upon the throne of David.

Jeremiah 22:30 Thus says the Lord: “Write this man down as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days, for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”

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Listen Visionary, I have said this before here and I say again: Even if Mary was one of the daughters of David, it would not help the case of Jesus. Tribal genealogy could not go down through the mother but through the father only. And before you mention adoption, hold your breath because, an adopted child in Israel had all the right of a biological son but one, the right to inherit the Tribal genealogy of the father.

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Aryeh Jay said:

It seems that the JPS tell a more complete story.


Tehillim - Chapter 110

It seems that Chabad agrees with the accepted understanding.

Tehillim - Chapter 110

And so the the Jewish Commentator Rashi.

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Shibolet should also check out Rashi on Bereishit 14:18-23.

Bereishit - Chapter 14

Shibolet said:

Listen Visionary, I have said this before here and I say again: Even if Mary was one of the daughters of David, it would not help the case of Jesus. Tribal genealogy could not go down through the mother but through the father only. And before you mention adoption, hold your breath because, an adopted child in Israel had all the right of a biological son but one, the right to inherit the Tribal genealogy of the father.

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So you are saying that Yeshua is without a tribe, because He has no earthly father.

visionary said:

So you are saying that Yeshua is without a tribe, because He has no earthly father.

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That is the traditional Jewish belief, yes.

visionary said:

So you are saying that Yeshua is without a tribe, because He has no earthly father.

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ChavaK said:

That is the traditional Jewish belief, yes.

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So, if the Jews believe Yeshua is without a tribe because he did not have an earthly father, then they must also believe he was miraculously born of a virgin by the will of YHWH.

Shibolet said:

Abram never liked any thing free especially from a pagan priest of the Canaanites.

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It says Melchizedek was a priest of the God most High, not a pagan priest.