The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine? But accepted?
- Thread starter Frank Lo
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Really this all comes down to using non-Biblical language to describe the "First Resurrection". That would be OK, if it did not lead to accepting/inventing a whole load of other non-Biblical ideas/heresies. E.g. the idea of three different forms of salvation, for three differesnt types of "saint": Old Testament saints, New Testament saints & Tribulation saints. There is only one form and method of salvation that has applied throughout this era of sin (past Old & New Testaments and any future we may have). It is stated quite plainly in Ephesian 2:8-9:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast."
Come on people, let's get back to and accept the truths of the very basics of our salvation in the Bible alone and not our logical conclusions - and that is what most of the previous replies have been!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast."
Come on people, let's get back to and accept the truths of the very basics of our salvation in the Bible alone and not our logical conclusions - and that is what most of the previous replies have been!
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- Sep 24, 2010
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marineimaging
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The word Rapture is not in the Bible in those letters. The event is very well documented in many locations and there will be a meeting in the air when Jesus returns. First the dead, then the living and we will all receive new bodies. The martyred saints will cry out for justice. The Lord will rule with an iron rod. The thousand year reign will be. And Satan will be loosed for a while and then cast into the Lake of Fire. The word "Rapture" is not in the bible in those letters but the event is.
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Larry O'Neal
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You bring up a very good topic. Sadly, a lot of preachers teach that Christians will be "raptured" before or during the tribulation, and that those that are "left behind" will have a chance to accept Jesus. This is totally false and is a doctrine of demons. It's telling people that you have plenty of time to accept Jesus, and if He comes before you do, you will have 2nd chance. Actually, when Jesus returns, He will come with a shout of the archangel to collect all those who are saved. It will not be a secret event, and it will not be before or during the tribulation. We must endure to the end as the Bible says. Then the elements will melt with fervent heat. So those that are left will not last long. After 1000 years, the kingdom of God comes to earth, He raises the non believing dead, Satan tries one last time to take Gods kingdom, but we all know he will fail and proclaim Jesus as Lord. All those that were lost throughout all of history will be judged, and thrown into the lake of fire. This is the Great White Throne Judgment. Which ever doctrine you believe, it would be better to teach others to accept Jesus now, and not wait till its to late, rather than tell them that Jesus will take the saved, then give unbelievers a second chance to accept Him, then come again. No. He will come quickly, and He is given all the opportunity now to accept Him.
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BARNEY BRIGHT
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I believe Romans 6:3-5 shows us that the case of Jesus set the pattern.(meaning all those with heavenly hope will experience death).Jesus disciples as well as others knew he had died.He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.1 Corinthians 15:35,36,44 i believe lets us know death comes before one receives that spiritual body.
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Many bible interpreters identify the Church in Philadephia in end times (Rev 3:7-13) as the true Church of Christ just prior to the rapture but before the tribulation while the Church of Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22) as the apostate church up to and during the tribulation with the tribulation saints all those who come to repentance and faith during the tribulation and who most often are martyred as a result. About a pre-tribulation rapture applied to the Church of Philadephia see verse Rev 3:10.
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Claude Belobersycky
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Frank, I struggled with the whole concept of "The Rapture" until I read Hank Hannegraffs book (The Apocalypse Code"" he challenged his listeners to read the book and then patiently and carefully verify what he says with scripture. I have been a Christian for 39 years and the more I read the Bible the more I realize that most Christians including so called theologians are not reading the Bible in it correct context. (Not all but many). If we read the Bible from a perspective of covenant eschatology not a "pre-conceived "end times" eschatology it all begins to make sense. And verifies Jesus Christ's teachings and therefore strengthens our faaithin Him. God bless you!
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To be upfront, it has been many moons since I last dug into the End Time topic as I've been studying up on other topics since. But, I believe the 7 vials/bowels happen at the 7 trumpet and that is God's Wrath. It's been stated in Scripture that the saints are not appointed to wrath but we are to expect tribulation, beheadings, etc (which is during the 6th trumpet/seal mostly, right?).
I've read a handful of various ideas on the chronology of the End Times (Revelation) and I haven't quite settled on the one that feels right to me through the Holy Spirit. It's probably not quite my time yet to know. *shrugs*
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- Jun 26, 2015
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Irenaeus is saying that the church will face a contest, the last contest before the overcomers are crowned with incorruption....See Thess.
Irenaeus also says .....
"As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]."
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 5 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
It appears to me that Irenaeus believed the 'caught up' scripture was talking about the resurrection.
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Yeah, I'll definitely have to go back and re-read. It's been too long and have too many other things running through my head. I read and understand well ... but have the worst time regurgitating facts when I need to. Grrrr. Plus, I think all this coughing has scrambled the brains ... literally.
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- Nov 5, 2011
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No. That's when it gains the most popularity but the pre-trib concept came from people misunderstanding Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians.
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In his writing, Irenaeus used the term "the righteous" in exactly the same way that pre-tribbers of today use the term "the righteous remnant," in describing those who are left behind when the church is "suddenly caught up," but who turn to the Lord and attempt to be faithful to the Him after that time. That is, he used this term as distinguishing them from "the church," "us," or "we," as he had always said up to that point in his scenario.
And I need to clarify that I am not saying that Irenaeus was correct in his views. I am only reporting on what he taught.
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1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:
1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
The church is never removed from the Earth and taken to Heaven. In fact Christ, the saints, the angels, new Jerusalem and eventually even God the Father himself will leave heaven to be upon the Earth with the Church. Claiming the church is removed goes against everything we scripturally know about the future.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.
The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.
"nor by letter as from us"
Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.
Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.
So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:
1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
The church is never removed from the Earth and taken to Heaven. In fact Christ, the saints, the angels, new Jerusalem and eventually even God the Father himself will leave heaven to be upon the Earth with the Church. Claiming the church is removed goes against everything we scripturally know about the future.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.
The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.
"nor by letter as from us"
Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently was not successful.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.
Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.
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