The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine? But accepted?
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Disciple37
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There are hundreds of websites and scholars that have already researched these events and discussed it until it couldn't be discussed hardly any more. The common consensus is that there is much more support in the Bible for a pre-tribulation rapture. There's NO Biblical evidence for post tribulation rapture and there's very little support for a mid tribulation rapture. Most of it pointing to a pre-tribulation rapture.
All this information is easily googled where scholars have researched it to death.
Defending The Pre-trib Rapture
Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries
For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)
All this information is easily googled where scholars have researched it to death.
Defending The Pre-trib Rapture
Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries
For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)
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Anyone who denies that there will indeed be a "rapture," is denying explicitly stated scripture. As such, this denial is totally unacceptable in anyone and everyone even pretending to be a Christian teacher or leader.
But the timing of this event is not clearly stated in scripture. So its timing is indeed a legitimate subject for discussion. Thus, all positions on the timing of this event are based upon interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. But when this debate is studied in detail, the real difference in the interpretations of the scriptures involved is not so much in the scriptures which various individuals apply to the subject, but in assumptions about the meanings of the words used in these scriptures. IF one set of these assumptions is used, one conclusion is obvious. But if a different set of assumptions abut the meanings of these words is used, a different conclusion if obvious.
So, while discussion, and even energetic debate, about this subject is both legitimate and helpful, it is not legitimate to claim that opposing ideas are "Satanic," or that they "come from hell." everyone needs to understand that there are many Godly Christians who disagree with their own ideas.
But the timing of this event is not clearly stated in scripture. So its timing is indeed a legitimate subject for discussion. Thus, all positions on the timing of this event are based upon interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. But when this debate is studied in detail, the real difference in the interpretations of the scriptures involved is not so much in the scriptures which various individuals apply to the subject, but in assumptions about the meanings of the words used in these scriptures. IF one set of these assumptions is used, one conclusion is obvious. But if a different set of assumptions abut the meanings of these words is used, a different conclusion if obvious.
So, while discussion, and even energetic debate, about this subject is both legitimate and helpful, it is not legitimate to claim that opposing ideas are "Satanic," or that they "come from hell." everyone needs to understand that there are many Godly Christians who disagree with their own ideas.
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Disciple37
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I am simply saying if you believe in a Post Tribulation rapture. There's no Biblical evidence for a post tribulation rapture .. at all. It also disagrees with most of the scholars who have studied this topic time and time again.
Post Tribulation, Pre Tribulation, Mid Tribulation is not something that should divide Christians. It's a minor argument in the grand scheme of things. However, the Bible has much more support for a pre Tribulation event. This can be looked at it and researched. It's very easy to see in the Bible that things will likely be pre-tribulation. However, if someone wants to go through the tribulation, that's up to them, but if they're a Christian they'll be raptured and that's that. It wont matter that their belief in the rapture was wrong. They'll just be surprised by that rapture like the Bible says they will, but at the same time. It'll be instant, so that surprise wont be long.
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Rapture theology originated about 1830 with Charles Nelson Darby. It seems to be cobbled together from quite a number of different scriptural sources each of which have alternate interpretations that are legitimately possible. Nowhere in scripture is there a single clear and comprehensive explanation of the theory. There is also considerable debate between rapture proponents as to what are the correct interpretations with the result that there are several different rapture theories in use.
I do not subscribe to any of the rapture theories and regard it as unimportant to Christian belief or practice. I believe it to be intellectually, emotionally and spiritually unhealthy to live your life in constant expectation of the "end times". It is far better to live your life in such a way as to make this a better world, not just today but into the far distant future.
I do not subscribe to any of the rapture theories and regard it as unimportant to Christian belief or practice. I believe it to be intellectually, emotionally and spiritually unhealthy to live your life in constant expectation of the "end times". It is far better to live your life in such a way as to make this a better world, not just today but into the far distant future.
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Disciple37
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There's evidence of early church fathers teaching pre-tribulation doctrine. This is one.
For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)
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DingDing
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Can I ask you to do something? Are you willing to read a book and think critically about what it says? If you are, then I strongly suggest reading the book, The Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church, by Marvin Rosenthal. He was a staunch pre-trib rapture teacher until a close friend convinced him to carefully reconsider his position. The book tells the story, and explains why he changed his view, and also discusses the holes in the pre-trib view that, even when he taught it, he knew were there. I would love to have a discussion with you after you have read this book to see what you think, and to see if you can point out errors in his book.
It does divide Christians. Most of those in positions of power in the modern church (American churches anyway) demand allegiance to the pretrib theory, and ban and prohibit the discussion or teaching of anything different. And if things play out the way I believe the bible teaches, this is a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Both Jesus and Paul spent a great deal of time discussing the end-times - and I don't think they would have done so if it was a minor thing.
Please read Rosenthal's book. He did the research and changed his position. Can you point out the errors in his research?
It is not up to them, it is up to God, and I believe for a great many who are looking for an easy escape, it really is going to matter when that easy escape does not happen. Their faith will be tested and many will fall away because they will have been led astray rather than having been prepared for what is coming.
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Disciple37
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Sure, I'll read the book or you can send some questions that you think are holes to me in a private message, maybe? I do better by actively discussing things, but I wouldn't mind reading the book either.
Also, when I said that "it's up to them" i meant that's their choice to believe that way whether wrong or right. I should have phrased that better. What i was ultimately saying whether you believe in a pre tribulation or post tribulation doctrine if it's pre tribulation, you'll be raptured regardless. Those that believe in Post Tribulation will just be caught off guard or maybe not. Who knows. The Post Tribulation or Pre Tribulation has never bothered me.
If we are to go through the tribulation, I would likely die early. I wouldn't lay down and be slaughtered, I'd be slaughtered fighting back. I would fight back and try to help as many as I could through the word of God and with weapons as necessary. So if i see the Anti Christ and the 7 year peace treaty, I simply know what's occurring and will prepare myself, my weapons of war, and my weapon of truth.
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It seems to me that rapture has itself brought much confusion to the world and has led in quite a number of cases to people ruining their lives by taking it far too seriously. In my lifetime alone I have witnessed several dozen end of the world rapture scares. I reject it all as unimportant as to how a Christian should conduct his or her life.
It seems to me that rapture has itself brought much confusion to the world and has led in quite a number of cases to people ruining their lives by taking it far too seriously. In my lifetime alone I have witnessed several dozen end of the world rapture scares. I reject it all as unimportant as to how a Christian should conduct his or her life.
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DingDing
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Rosenthal is an excellent writer, and if you are willing, he will give you much to think about. If you are willing to look for and follow truth, then give his book a chance. But let me tell you now, there are probably going to be those who will tell you not to waste your time with it - but if you are a true searcher of truth and are not willing to pass an opportunity to seek deeply, then this is a worthy book. Once you have read it carefully, we can discuss whatever you want.
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DingDing
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Though I respect N. T. Wright for his overall New Testament scholarship, at the end of the day, in this video he is just spouting off his end-time opinion. He sees the victory of God in a more general sense, and I believe by doing so he misses some particular truths. (Though, I must admit, I would love to have time to sit down and chat with him over a great many things. I consider him well respected, but wrong on this subject.)
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I did not say that
I did not say that either
I suggest you post your own thoughts rather than trying to speak for me.
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DingDing
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But I really, really, would love to have the opportunity to sit down and have a long chat with him. He is one of those guys that even if you disagree with him, you have to love and respect him. (And there are a great many 'popular' teachers who have not merited that kind of respect - at least not from me.)
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