POLL: Which of these elements of the creation story do you believe?

BobRyan · Dec 5, 2016

JacksBratt said:
I believe that Noah, his wife and three sons were pure Human bloodline,

ok

JacksBratt said:
while the three wives that Noah chose for his sons were not.

Why would you say such a thing????

All of them were Nephilim - all were giants. Giants got on the boat - and giants got off the boat. According to Genesis they also lived a "giant" length of time -- about 900 years in the case of Noah and 600+ years in the case of his sons.

BobRyan · Dec 5, 2016

Philip_B said:
Hi Bob,

Great post by the way. It would have been remarkable if the writer of 4G had mused about evolution, some 1800 years before the idea was even remotely considered by the Scientific Community and indeed probably 1600 hundred years before the concept of concept existed.

I am sure that it is very popular among our enemies to pose the question as an either/or, I don't feel the need to do that, and in general regard it as a straw man debating technique. I see no need to delete any part of the Bible, and I have to say certainly not my 18 favorite verses from John's Gospel.

I just don't see evolution as destroying anything. It is a theory, a scientific theory and based on evidence.

Evolution is pure myth - and can be summarized this way "an amoeba will sure enough turn into a rabbit over time given a talented enough amoeba and a long and talented enough length of time filled with just-so stories that are easy enough to tell - but they are not science - and those stories trail all the way along up to the top of mount improbable".

That sort of junk-science religion does not qualify as legitimate science and even some of their own experts are willing to admit this.

The Bible says "SIX Days you shall labor...for in SIX days the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them" as stated in legal code not symbolism, not poetic myth and legend but law.

Darwin admits this -- that the Bible and blind faith evolutionism do not fit together.
Dawkins admits it.

Both of them start out as Christians.

You will never find a textbook on evolutionism claiming that the perfect summary of evolution is "for in SIX days the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them" and I think we all know it.

So then Genesis 2 is not too difficult to read.

Genesis 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

JacksBratt · Dec 5, 2016

BobRyan said:
ok

Why would you say such a thing????

All of them were Nephilim - all were giants. Giants got on the boat - and giants got off the boat. According to Genesis they also lived a "giant" length of time -- about 900 years in the case of Noah and 600+ years in the case of his sons.

Who were Nephilim? Who were giants? Noah? His wife and sons?

This is impossible as Noah was Pure in his generations, Jesus came from these pure generations, Nephilim were not pure human bloodlines. Noah's daughters in law could not have been pure in their generations or the Bible would have stated this fact. Only Noah and his family were pure in their generations.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Who were Nephilim? Who were giants? Noah? His wife and sons?

The Bible says that all of mankind lived for giant-life-spans compared to ours ... 900+ years as compared to 90. so then 10x longer life span.

And as it turns out they were also slightly larger. Possibly 2x. Nephilim.

The Bible does not say in genesis 6 - "because they were wicked they were larger than normal" and we all know it.

Nor does Genesis 5 and 6 say 'because they were wicked they lived for a longer period of time than we do now" -- and we all know it.

And the Bible does not mention aliens in Genesis 6 either.

This is where your speculation falls apart.

JacksBratt · Dec 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
The Bible says that all of mankind lived for giant-life-spans compared to ours ... 900+ years as compared to 90. so then 10x longer life span.

And as it turns out they were also slightly larger. Possibly 2x

The Bible does not say in genesis 6 - "because they were wicked they were larger than normal" and we all know it.

Nor does Genesis 5 and 6 say 'because they were wicked they lived for a longer period of time than we do now" -- and we all know it.

And the Bible does not mention aliens in Genesis 6 either.

This is where your speculation falls apart.

All were not Nephilim. The bible states:

Genesis 6:4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Clearly, the Nephilim were the result of "when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them"
The distinction between "sons of God" and "Daughters of Humans (or men in KJV)" is clear.

Noah was "pure (or perfect) in his generations".
Genesis 6:9King James Version (KJV)

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
This distinction of "perfect in generations" indicates that there were many who must have been "imperfect" in their generations.

When coupled with the fact that "all flesh had been corrupted". It is clear that Noah and his family were outside of the "all" who had corrupted flesh.

No, they were not larger because they were wicked. They did not live long because they were wicked. But, all flesh had become corrupted, except Noah and his family.

Also:

Genesis 6:5King James Version (KJV)
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Seems like everything about man at that time was "evil continually"

God was going to wipe everyone out. And...He does, except Noah, his family and three, without perfect generations, wives for his sons.

My speculation checks out just fine.

BobRyan · Dec 24, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Who were Nephilim? Who were giants? Noah? His wife and sons?

The Bible says that all of mankind lived for giant-life-spans compared to ours ... 900+ years as compared to 90. so then 10x longer life span.

And as it turns out they were also slightly larger. Possibly 2x. Nephilim.

The Bible does not say in genesis 6 - "because they were wicked they were larger than normal" and we all know it.

Nor does Genesis 5 and 6 say 'because they were wicked they lived for a longer period of time than we do now" -- and we all know it.

And the Bible does not mention aliens in Genesis 6 either.

This is where your speculation falls apart.

JacksBratt said:
All were not Nephilim. The bible states:

Genesis 6:4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

True - but Nephilim were not half-human according to the Bible or part-non-human nor were they all wicked. Rather they were large., They were giants as compared to man at the time of Moses.

Some were wicked. Some were not.

Clearly, the Nephilim were the result of "when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them"

The bible does not say 'Nephilim resulted" from that. It just says that Nephilim lived before the flood and after. Because in fact Noah and all humans at that time were Nephilim as compared to humanity at the time of Moses.

Genesis 6

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land (True of all humans -- not just the wicked), and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves (a mix of the righteous and the wicked) , whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh (all mankind was flesh); nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (all mankind were living over 900+ years) 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (because all humans were Nephilim as compared to Moses' day), and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

-- in that text we are told that both BEFORE and AFTER the righteous mixed with the wicked - pre-flood man was Nephilim!!

And of course no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6

John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

And of course in Matt 22 Christ states that Angels do not form families - they are not created with that sort of biology any more than your elbow can have a child.

Bible details matter.

JacksBratt · Dec 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

Bible details matter.

Tell me, how many people, before the flood,"received Him"?

How many people could be called "The sons of God if they had to have received Christ to be given this title and Christ was not around for another 2000 years?

BobRyan · Dec 25, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Tell me, how many people, before the flood,"received Him"?

Genesis 5 shows that the lineage of Seth did.

How many people could be called "The sons of God if they had to have received Christ to be given this title and Christ was not around for another 2000 years?

Hint: "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56

Enoch is soooo perfect and accepted with God he is translated -- taken directly to heaven - before the flood.

Hebrews 11 Noah is pursuing "Righteousness by faith".

The ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 was functioning as soon as Adam fell.

JacksBratt · Dec 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
Genesis 5 shows that the lineage of Seth did.

Hint: "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56

Enoch is soooo perfect and accepted with God he is translated -- taken directly to heaven - before the flood.

Hebrews 11 Noah is pursuing "Righteousness by faith".

The ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 was functioning as soon as Adam fell.

The "sons of God" meaning the line of Seth, has been shown to be impossible on many accounts.

I know it's tough to wrap your head around the concept of angels taking women to be their wives and mother their offspring, however, the earth has seen some strange things over the millennia and we are fools to believe that it has always been as it is today.

In my opinion and based on the commentaries of other much more competent is such areas, humans, as in Seth's line, could not mate with other humans, those not in the line of Seth, and for Nephilim or "men of renown" as depicted in the Biblical account. Not to the extent that we see in the scripture and certainly not to deem "all flesh corrupt" to the point that God wanted to kill all of mankind.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Who were Nephilim? Who were giants? Noah? His wife and sons?

The Bible says that all of mankind lived for giant-life-spans compared to ours ... 900+ years as compared to 90. so then 10x longer life span.

And as it turns out they were also slightly larger. Possibly 2x. Nephilim.

The Bible does not say in genesis 6 - "because they were wicked they were larger than normal" and we all know it.

Nor does Genesis 5 and 6 say 'because they were wicked they lived for a longer period of time than we do now" -- and we all know it.

And the Bible does not mention aliens in Genesis 6 either.

This is where your speculation falls apart.

JacksBratt said:
All were not Nephilim. The bible states:

Genesis 6:4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

True - but Nephilim were not half-human according to the Bible or part-non-human nor were they all wicked. Rather they were large., They were giants as compared to man at the time of Moses.

Some were wicked. Some were not.

Clearly, the Nephilim were the result of "when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them"

The bible does not say 'Nephilim resulted" from that. It just says that Nephilim lived before the flood and after. Because in fact Noah and all humans at that time were Nephilim as compared to humanity at the time of Moses.

Genesis 6

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land (True of all humans -- not just the wicked), and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves (a mix of the righteous and the wicked) , whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh (all mankind was flesh); nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (all mankind were living over 900+ years) 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (because all humans were Nephilim as compared to Moses' day), and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

-- in that text we are told that both BEFORE and AFTER the righteous mixed with the wicked - pre-flood man was Nephilim!!

And of course no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6

John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

And of course in Matt 22 Christ states that Angels do not form families - they are not created with that sort of biology any more than your elbow can have a child.

Bible details matter.

JacksBratt said:
Tell me, how many people, before the flood,"received Him"?

Genesis 5 shows that the lineage of Seth did.

How many people could be called "The sons of God if they had to have received Christ to be given this title and Christ was not around for another 2000 years?

Hint: "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56

Enoch is soooo perfect and accepted with God he is translated -- taken directly to heaven - before the flood.

Hebrews 11 Noah is pursuing "Righteousness by faith".

The ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 was functioning as soon as Adam fell.

JacksBratt said:
The "sons of God" meaning the line of Seth, has been shown to be impossible on many accounts.

John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

You appear to be mistaken.

I know it's tough to wrap your head around the concept of angels taking women to be their wives and mother their offspring

Especially since in Matt 22 Christ said that Angels do not have the function, that biology, even among themselves let alone with other "species".

Please be serious.

In my opinion and based on the commentaries of other much more competent is such areas, humans, as in Seth's line, could not mate with other humans, those not in the line of Seth

So then the truth gets so bent backwards that it becomes the nonsensical "humans cannot mate with humans" -- and the to the direct contradiction of Christ in Matt 22 "Angels can mate"

, and for Nephilim or "men of renown" as depicted in the Biblical account.

The text said that Nephilim were there BOTH BEFORE AND after the mating between the sons of Seth (the sons of God) and the daughters of men.

Bible details matter.

Not to the extent that we see in the scripture and certainly not to deem "all flesh corrupt" to the point that God wanted to kill all of mankind.

-- all flesh includes both animal and man.

Chimera / hybrid... amalgamation among both man and beast. But not among angels.

JacksBratt · Dec 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
The Bible says that all of mankind lived for giant-life-spans compared to ours ... 900+ years as compared to 90. so then 10x longer life span.

And as it turns out they were also slightly larger. Possibly 2x. Nephilim.

The Bible does not say in genesis 6 - "because they were wicked they were larger than normal" and we all know it.

Nor does Genesis 5 and 6 say 'because they were wicked they lived for a longer period of time than we do now" -- and we all know it.

And the Bible does not mention aliens in Genesis 6 either.

This is where your speculation falls apart.

True - but Nephilim were not half-human according to the Bible or part-non-human nor were they all wicked. Rather they were large., They were giants as compared to man at the time of Moses.

Some were wicked. Some were not.

The bible does not say 'Nephilim resulted" from that. It just says that Nephilim lived before the flood and after. Because in fact Noah and all humans at that time were Nephilim as compared to humanity at the time of Moses.

Genesis 6

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land (True of all humans -- not just the wicked), and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves (a mix of the righteous and the wicked) , whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh (all mankind was flesh); nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (all mankind were living over 900+ years) 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (because all humans were Nephilim as compared to Moses' day), and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

-- in that text we are told that both BEFORE and AFTER the righteous mixed with the wicked - pre-flood man was Nephilim!!

And of course no angels at all mentioned in Genesis 6

John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

And of course in Matt 22 Christ states that Angels do not form families - they are not created with that sort of biology any more than your elbow can have a child.

Bible details matter.

Genesis 5 shows that the lineage of Seth did.

Hint: "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56

Enoch is soooo perfect and accepted with God he is translated -- taken directly to heaven - before the flood.

Hebrews 11 Noah is pursuing "Righteousness by faith".

The ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 was functioning as soon as Adam fell.

John 1:11-12 "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"

You appear to be mistaken.

Especially since in Matt 22 Christ said that Angels do not have the function, that biology, even among themselves let alone with other "species".

Please be serious.

So then the truth gets so bent backwards that it becomes the nonsensical "humans cannot mate with humans" -- and the to the direct contradiction of Christ in Matt 22 "Angels can mate"

The text said that Nephilim were there BOTH BEFORE AND after the mating between the sons of Seth (the sons of God) and the daughters of men.

Bible details matter.

-- all flesh includes both animal and man.

Chimera / hybrid... amalgamation among both man and beast. But not among angels.

You keep posting the same statements and verses.

The phrase "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"
cannot apply to the people who lived before the flood and even before Christ. They cannot "receive Him" if He has not been born, crucified and resurrected.

This verse makes the Christians, the ones saved by Christ's blood "to be called" Sons of God. The "Son's of God" before the flood always means angels.

You believe your view and I will believe mine.

God Bless.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2016

JacksBratt said:
You keep posting the same statements and verses.

Because the statements made here - that contradict them... do not survive the details posted in them.

The phrase "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"
cannot apply to the people who lived before the flood and even before Christ. They cannot "receive Him" if He has not been born, crucified and resurrected.

Already refuted in John 8:56, and in Gal 3:8 and in Hebrews 4:1 and in 1 Peter 1:10-11

Were we just "not supposed to notice"??

What it shows is that the term "sons of God" refers to the faithful children of God and not to wild fictions about angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... not just mate but mate with other species along with the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

It just does not get any easier than this.

You believe your view and I will believe mine.

You have free will as is the case with all the world - you can believe whatever wild fictions you like

JacksBratt · Dec 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
Because the statements made here - that contradict them... do not survive the details posted in them.

Already refuted in John 8:56, and in Gal 3:8 and in Hebrews 4:1 and in 1 Peter 1:10-11

Were we just "not supposed to notice"??

What it shows is that the term "sons of God" refers to the faithful children of God and not to wild fictions about angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... not just mate but mate with other species along with the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

It just does not get any easier than this.

You have free will as is the case with all the world - you can believe whatever wild fictions you like

See, that's just it. I can say "You believe your view and I will believe mine." and you reciprocate with a derogatory "whatever wild fictions".

Why are you so emotionally charged with this disagreement?

Many understand these so called "wild fictions" to be fact and biblicaly sound. They also collaborate with other ancient books that are quoted in the bible.

Have a good day.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2016

JacksBratt said:
You keep posting the same statements and verses.

Because the statements made here - that contradict them... do not survive the details posted in them.

The phrase "To as many as received Him - to THEM He gave the right to be called the SONS of GOD"
cannot apply to the people who lived before the flood and even before Christ. They cannot "receive Him" if He has not been born, crucified and resurrected.

Already refuted in John 8:56, and in Gal 3:8 and in Hebrews 4:1 and in 1 Peter 1:10-11

Were we just "not supposed to notice"??

What it shows is that the term "sons of God" refers to the faithful children of God and it does not refer to wild fictions about:
1. angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... no matter Christ refuting it in Matt 22
2. not just mate but mate with other species
3. the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

It just does not get any easier than this.

You believe your view and I will believe mine.

You have free will as is the case with all the world - you can believe whatever wild fictions you like

JacksBratt said:
See, that's just it. I can say "You believe your view and I will believe mine." and you reciprocate with a derogatory "whatever wild fictions".

I think it is perfectly clear that we do not believe the same things.

I make the statement that this summary of the opposing view SHOWS it to be a wild fiction.

1. angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... no matter Christ refuting it in Matt 22
2. not just mate but mate with other species
3. the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

Why are you so emotionally charged with this disagreement?

My purpose is not to convince you against your will - you are free to believe whatever wish comes to your mind.

My purpose is to impress the unbiased objective Bible student that may come to this thread - with the stark contrast and also to expose my views vs yours by way of summary and contrast so they can see for themselves if this is simply "potahto vs potato" or if it is wild fiction vs Bible.

For all you know they may agree with you to this point "well I can see that you differ but the opposing view is not to the level of wild fiction".

By adding "wild fiction" to it -- I am exposing my own view to even more stringent scrutiny .. you should be glad.

Many understand these so called "wild fictions" to be fact and biblicaly sound. They also collaborate with other ancient books that are quoted in the bible.

Then my statement that they are blatant and obvious wild fictions by contrast to the clear and obvious statements in the Bible - should expose me to even more "risk" not less. So then it is only "I" in that case that is placed at risk and should not be a negative for you.

Have a good day

JacksBratt · Dec 26, 2016

BobRyan said:
Because the statements made here - that contradict them... do not survive the details posted in them.

Already refuted in John 8:56, and in Gal 3:8 and in Hebrews 4:1 and in 1 Peter 1:10-11

Were we just "not supposed to notice"??

What it shows is that the term "sons of God" refers to the faithful children of God and it does not refer to wild fictions about:
1. angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... no matter Christ refuting it in Matt 22
2. not just mate but mate with other species
3. the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

It just does not get any easier than this.

You have free will as is the case with all the world - you can believe whatever wild fictions you like

I think it is perfectly clear that we do not believe the same things.

I make the statement that this summary of the opposing view SHOWS it to be a wild fiction.

1. angels suddenly created with the biology to mate... no matter Christ refuting it in Matt 22
2. not just mate but mate with other species
3. the wild fiction that mankind was suddenly created with the biology that would not allow mating with humans.

My purpose is not to convince you against your will - you are free to believe whatever wish comes to your mind.

My purpose is to impress the unbiased objective Bible student that may come to this thread - with the stark contrast and also to expose my views vs yours by way of summary and contrast so they can see for themselves if this is simply "potahto vs potato" or if it is wild fiction vs Bible.

For all you know they may agree with you to this point "well I can see that you differ but the opposing view is not to the level of wild fiction".

By adding "wild fiction" to it -- I am exposing my own view to even more stringent scrutiny .. you should be glad.

Then my statement that they are blatant and obvious wild fictions by contrast to the clear and obvious statements in the Bible - should expose me to even more "risk" not less. So then it is only "I" in that case that is placed at risk and should not be a negative for you.

Have a good day

I certainly hope that anyone interested in this topic is NOT using a forum, such as this, to base their view of this matter.

That would be very unwise.

No matter how you try to convince yourself, telling someone that they can "believe what wild fictions they like", is 1/ condescension and 2/ categorizing my view as "wild fictions". which 3/ by elimination, self categorizes your view as fact.

POLL: Which of these elements of the creation story do you believe?

POLL: Which of the following do you accept?

1. A firm layer divided the waters so a massive body of liquid water was right above the firmament.

2. The earth's age is under 10,000 years old, or the 7 days of creation were in c.24 hour periods.

3. The Earth is flat.

4. Geocentricism.

5. God made man directly out of the earth instead of using Evolution through lower mammalian classes

6. None of the above.

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