Is the Holy Spirit really a third individual person?

Doveaman · Dec 17, 2016

Scripture tells us that Man is created in the image and likeness of God, therefore the human nature of Man can be viewed as a semblance of God to better understand the nature of God.

But how?

“The LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind…who forms the spirit of man within him” – (Numbers 27:16, Zechariah 12:1,).

Man is essentially a spirit who lives in a single human body, but God is a Spirit who lives in many human bodies.
The Spirit of the Father lived in the human body of the Son, similar to how the spirit of Man lives in the human body of Man.

“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding …For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?…the body without the spirit is dead” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11, James 2:26).

The life essence of Man (the breath of the Almighty) exists in the form of a living spirit in Man which inspires the conscious mind and thoughts of Man. The conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed in the form of a living spirit in Man.

In the same way, the divine Spirit of God is the life essence of God which inspires the conscious mind and thoughts of God. The conscious mind and thoughts of God are expressed in the form of a living Spirit from God: “No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. And we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” – (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

The spirit of Man is the indwelling life essence of Man that inspires human understanding.
The Spirit of God is the inherent life essence of God that inspires divine understanding.

The conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed through his human spirit.
The conscious mind and thoughts of God are expressed through His Holy Spirit.

Man communicates with others in a personal way through the inspiration of his human spirit.
God communicates with us in a personal way through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit.

The spirit of Man indwelling in Man is not a second person.
The Spirit of God inherent in God is not a third person.

The spirit of Man is the conscious mind of Man being expressed through his human spirit.
The Spirit of God is the conscious mind of the Father and Son being expressed through their divine Spirit.

The difference between the spirit of Man and the Spirit of God is that Man’s spirit is restricted to his human body, but the Spirit of God can proceed from the Father and Son and become united with the spirits of many others: “For the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God” – (Romans 8:16).

When we receive the Holy Spirit of God we begin to participate in God’s divine nature, and we begin to experience the conscious mind of the Father and Son being expressed through their divine Spirit: "His divine power has given us everything we need...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature…For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.” – (2 Peter 1:3-4, 1 Corinthians 2:16).

The conscious mind of the Father and Son can be expressed independently of each other, but the conscious mind of the Holy Spirit is attributed to the Father or Son. This is because the Holy Spirit is the conscious mind of the Father and Son expressed through the union of their divine Spirit, just as the conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed through his human spirit.

“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God…For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Der Alte · Dec 17, 2016

Doveaman said:
It does not matter what 1st century Jews and ex-pagans saw.
All that matters is what the Bible says. So lets just begin and end there.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Do you read Greek or Hebrew? My guess is you use an English translation, many of the scholars who translated that, or any, version, studied the writings of the early church to determine the correct meanings of Greek and Hebrew words. For example, from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek under the word θεος/Theos. Ignatius was a student of John

But above all Ignatius calls Christ θεος in many pass. θεος Ιεσους Χριστος 1Tr7:1, Χ' θ'. ISm10:1, ο θ' υμον. IEph inscr.;15:3, 18:2, IRom inscr. (twice) 3:3; IPol8:3, το παθος θ' μου IRom 6:3, εν ανιματι θ' IEph 1:1, εν σαρκι γενομενος θ', 7:2, θ' ανθροπινως φανερουμενος 19:3. θ' ο ουτως υμας σοφισας ISm1:1.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Walter Bauer, F. W. Gingrich, Frederick Danker, (BAGD) U of Chicago Press, 1979

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth…I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you…If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” – (John 14:16-23). Don't you see the connection?

One can prove almost anything by quoting selective texts out-of-context. Even in this verse Jesus refers to the Father and the Comforter in the second person, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter...." Jesus did not say "I will ask me and I will send..."
.....In this passage Jesus uses the second person pronoun "himself,""he" nine times. Did the Jews that Jesus was talking to understand that Jesus was speaking about a person distinct from Himself or did they understand Jesus to be talking about the Father, Himself and the Spirit?

John 16:13-17
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit of truth, is the Father and Son coming to us and living in us through their divine Spirit.
Did you personally know the Jews and ex-pagans living in the 1st century?
They didn't explain the Trinity either. So?
I'm not here to explain what the early Christians understood.
I am here to explain what I understand from the Bible.
Do you determine biblical truths based on what 1st century Jews and ex-pagans understood?
Do you not study the Bible for yourself?
The following post is my explanation of what I understand.

As a matter of fact I do study the Bible for myself, I read four languages, including Hebrew and Greek, and I did not gain that knowledge by sitting around trying to figure out those other languages for myself.
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

Der Alte · Dec 17, 2016

Doveaman said:
Scripture tells us that Man is created in the image and likeness of God, therefore the human nature of Man can be viewed as a semblance of God to better understand the nature of God.
But how?
“The LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind…who forms the spirit of man within him” – (Numbers 27:16, Zechariah 12:1,).
Man is essentially a spirit who lives in a single human body, but God is a Spirit who lives in many human bodies.
The Spirit of the Father lived in the human body of the Son, similar to how the spirit of Man lives in the human body of Man.
“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding …For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?…the body without the spirit is dead” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11, James 2:26).
The life essence of Man (the breath of the Almighty) exists in the form of a living spirit in Man which inspires the conscious mind and thoughts of Man. The conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed in the form of a living spirit in Man.
In the same way, the divine Spirit of God is the life essence of God which inspires the conscious mind and thoughts of God. The conscious mind and thoughts of God are expressed in the form of a living Spirit from God: “No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. And we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” – (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).
The spirit of Man is the indwelling life essence of Man that inspires human understanding.
The Spirit of God is the inherent life essence of God that inspires divine understanding.
The conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed through his human spirit.
The conscious mind and thoughts of God are expressed through His Holy Spirit.
Man communicates with others in a personal way through the inspiration of his human spirit.
God communicates with us in a personal way through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit.

The spirit of Man indwelling in Man is not a second person.

Man is not God. God is not subject to the same inadequacies, and shortcomings man is.

The Spirit of God inherent in God is not a third person.
The spirit of Man is the conscious mind of Man being expressed through his human spirit.
The Spirit of God is the conscious mind of the Father and Son being expressed through their divine Spirit.
The difference between the spirit of Man and the Spirit of God is that Man’s spirit is restricted to his human body, but the Spirit of God can proceed from the Father and Son and become united with the spirits of many others: “For the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God” – (Romans 8:16).
When we receive the Holy Spirit of God we begin to participate in God’s divine nature, and we begin to experience the conscious mind of the Father and Son being expressed through their divine Spirit: "His divine power has given us everything we need...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature…For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.” – (2 Peter 1:3-4, 1 Corinthians 2:16).

The conscious mind of the Father and Son can be expressed independently of each other, but the conscious mind of the Holy Spirit is attributed to the Father or Son.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he [2nd pers] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

This is because the Holy Spirit is the conscious mind of the Father and Son expressed through the union of their divine Spirit, just as the conscious mind and thoughts of Man are expressed through his human spirit.

“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God…For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Doveaman · Dec 18, 2016

Der Alter said:
Man is not God. God is not subject to the same inadequacies, and shortcomings man is.

This does not change the fact that Man is created in God's image and likeness.
The human nature of Man resembles the divine nature of God.
Man is a spirit who dwells in a body. God is a Spirit who dwells in any body.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he [2nd pers] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The spirit of Man also has a mind that inspires Man with thoughts and understanding:
“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11).

The spirit of Man has a mind, but he is not a second person in Man.
The Spirit of God also has a mind, but He is not a third person in God.

Der Alter said:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

That's why God gave us His inspired historical record called the Bible.

Do you read Greek or Hebrew?

Only when I want to know the original meaning of words in the Bible.

My guess is you use an English translation, many of the scholars who translated that, or any, version, studied the writings of the early church to determine the correct meanings of Greek and Hebrew words.

That would explain why we find words in the Bible that were not in the original Greek or Hebrew...they are the errors of human influence:

"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." -- (Acts 12:4).

The originals say "Passover", the translation says "Easter".

It seems to me your early church sources are not reliable.

For example, from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek under the word θεος/Theos. Ignatius was a student of John
But above all Ignatius calls Christ θεος in many pass. θεος Ιεσους Χριστος 1Tr7:1, Χ' θ'. ISm10:1, ο θ' υμον. IEph inscr.;15:3, 18:2, IRom inscr. (twice) 3:3; IPol8:3, το παθος θ' μου IRom 6:3, εν ανιματι θ' IEph 1:1, εν σαρκι γενομενος θ', 7:2, θ' ανθροπινως φανερουμενος 19:3. θ' ο ουτως υμας σοφισας ISm1:1.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Walter Bauer, F. W. Gingrich, Frederick Danker, (BAGD) U of Chicago Press, 1979

Speaking in a foreign tongue isn't going to help your argument.

One can prove almost anything by quoting selective texts out-of-context.

It's not out of context just because you say so.

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth…I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you…If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." – (John 14:16-23).

Can you explain the mechanism through which the Father and Son come to you and make their home with you?

"I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." -- (Galatians 2:20).

Can you explain the mechanism through which Christ lives in you?

"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ." -- (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

Can you explain the mechanism through which you have the mind of Christ?

The Father and Son are not just sitting around on thrones while the Holy Spirit does all the work:

"My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I, too, am working...for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose." -- (John 5:17, Philippians 2:12-13).

Can you explain the mechanism through which God (Father and Son) is working in you?

As a matter of fact I do study the Bible for myself, I read four languages, including Hebrew and Greek, and I did not gain that knowledge by sitting around trying to figure out those other languages for myself.
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

So you have the gift of tongues. Great.

I prefer the gift of understanding.

Doveaman · Dec 18, 2016

Der Alter said:
Even in this verse Jesus refers to the Father and the Comforter in the second person, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter...." Jesus did not say "I will ask me and I will send..."
.....In this passage Jesus uses the second person pronoun "himself,""he" nine times. Did the Jews that Jesus was talking to understand that Jesus was speaking about a person distinct from Himself or did they understand Jesus to be talking about the Father, Himself and the Spirit?
John 16:13-17
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The human spirit is a living spirit who has a conscious mind that thinks; he expresses thoughts and desires and a will; he has personal characteristics. But the personal characteristics of the human spirit are the personal characteristics of Man expressing himself through his human spirit:

“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11).

The human spirit can therefore be referred to as "he" because he is the living spiritual expression of a masculine being. And the human spirit does not promote himself because his only purpose is to promote the will of Man, the created son, who exists as one person.

The Holy Spirit is also a living Spirit who has a conscious mind that thinks; He expresses thoughts and desires and a will; He has personal characteristics. But the personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit are the personal characteristics of God (Father and Son) expressing Himself through His divine Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also referred to as "He" because He is the living spiritual expression of a masculine being. And the Holy Spirit does not promote Himself because His only purpose is to promote the will of God, the eternal Father and Son, who exists as two persons.

The Holy Spirit of God can proceed, or flow, from God and fill the mind of Man to form a spiritual union with the living spirit of Man: “For the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God” – (Romans 8:16).

The Holy Spirit can therefore be spoken of in the second or third person because He proceeds from the Father and Son in the form of a living Spirit who expresses the mind and will and thoughts and desires of God.

If it was possible for you to fill the minds of others with your human spirit, you may be able to express your thoughts and will and desires in them through the inspiration of your spirit in them.

In the same way, when God fills our minds with His Holy Spirit, He is able to express His thoughts and will and desires in us through the inspiration of His Spirit in us.

Uber Genius · Dec 18, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
pneumatic came from, meaning air, and it's easy to derive from that... spirit or ghost. Which is why it's the term for spirit, nothing more, yet it seems it's been stretched from here to kingdom come to suggest something entirely different than what was simply intended by the term.

WINNER!!!!!!!!

Of the most ignorant remark I have read out here in 6 months.

Part of understanding how ancient language communicates is GRAMMAR,

You change the subject away from the normal usage of a word in terms of gender and then act as if meaning of pneuma was the topic and it is not.

This is known as a logical dodge (RED HERRING)!

Pure propaganda for the uneducated!

Proper exegesis looks at grammatical structure and inside that section is grammatical clue such as changing in mood, aspect, tense or gender away from standard construction.

It operates separately from the lexical range of a word or lexical domain (which is different than range).

Your attempt at sounding educated has backfired. Too bad you didn't take 30 seconds to actually research why changing pneuma from neuter demonstrated to all the readers (1st century) that the Spirit was a person not an object.

More research, less propaganda.

Kenny'sID · Dec 18, 2016

Uber Genius said:
WINNER!!!!!!!!

Of the most ignorant remark I have read out here in 6 months.

Part of understanding how ancient language communicates is GRAMMAR,

You change the subject away from the normal usage of a word in terms of gender and then act as if meaning of pneuma was the topic and it is not.

This is known as a logical dodge (RED HERRING)!

Pure propaganda for the uneducated!

Proper exegesis looks at grammatical structure and inside that section is grammatical clue such as changing in mood, aspect, tense or gender away from standard construction.

It operates separately from the lexical range of a word or lexical domain (which is different than range).

Your attempt at sounding educated has backfired. Too bad you didn't take 30 seconds to actually research why changing pneuma from neuter demonstrated to all the readers (1st century) that the Spirit was a person not an object.

More research, less propaganda.

?

Actually a yes or now to the following will answer my question.

Was this sarcasm?

Uber Genius said:
WINNER!!!!!!!!

Uber Genius · Dec 18, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
I'm not confused at all. Now if *you* want to help the confusion as you put it, just read your bible and use a very small amount of common sense, forget about the confusion man has interjected here and you'll be home free.

"Just read the bible" seems to be your pat answer.

Look at others on this thread. They give a scripture reference, then a justification for the meaning the auors were trying to convey, followed by a pattern across authors.

This is how we engage, not with blanket retorts, "just read da bible."

Kenny'sID said:
Man made higher knowledge is for the insecure, and you'd be surprised at how many of us are satisfied with the simple truth of the bible.

Again, you give your interpretation of biblical theology without it being informed by exegesis, hermeneutics, Biblical theology, which all need to precede Systematics. And then call people's exegesis, herneutics, and biblical theology, "man made."

So poisoning the wells and insulating yourself from learning is just going to lock you into your present level of understanding. Your method is man-made. Your approach is post-modern which is "the texts of scripture means whatever I want it to mean.

Uber Genius · Dec 18, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
?

Actually a yes or now to the following will answer my question.

Was this sarcasm?

Again, you need to learn to read the context and you wouldn't have needed to ask.

"Of the most ignorant remark I have read out here in 6 months," follows the "Winner."

Followed by highlighting your misrepresentations and dodges as propaganda.

The spirit may be impersonal as you suggest but logical dodges in the form of red herrings (drawing one attention away from why the NT authors break grammar rules to consistently avoid paint the HS as an "it" instead of "He")

Kenny'sID · Dec 18, 2016

Uber Genius said:
WINNER!!!!!!!!

Uber Genius said:
Again, you need to learn to read the context and you wouldn't have needed to ask.

"Of the most ignorant remark I have read out here in 6 months," follows the "Winner."

Followed by highlighting your misrepresentations and dodges as propaganda.

The spirit may be impersonal as you suggest but logical dodges in the form of red herrings (drawing one attention away from why the NT authors break grammar rules to consistently avoid paint the HS as an "it" instead of "He")

Or maybe you could simply can the sarcasm and be more clear. Are you aware of what the term winner really means? Yet you post it to mean the opposite, then bark at me for having trouble with context? lol.

Uber Genius said:
You change the subject away from the normal usage of a word in terms of gender and then act as if meaning of pneuma was the topic and it is not.

First, Prove yours is the "normal usage of the word" please. Reason being, I need to know if anything you say is true or if it's all simply stretched out nothings.

You say I changed the subject when I only commented on a term someone else made part of the subject. You see how you are stretching things out terribly here?

You accuse me of "acting" in one way or another, and that is your tiny lie that you hope will substantiate the drivel. I stick with exactly what I said, twist it how you like. Pneuma was brought up, simple as that and I commented on it. No acting, or anything of the sort. Your need to stretch nothings into somethings tells me if you need to do that to defend your side of this, maybe you don't have much of a defense at all.

Uber Genius said:
"Just read the bible" seems to be your pat answer.

I liked it then, and I still think it's a good idea.

Der Alte · Dec 18, 2016

mmksparbud said:
good grief--I posted the whole passage and you still can't follow it?!!!

Luke 16:14

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

I would say rather it is you who do not understand and I even highlighted the words which show you to be wrong. If Jesus had been addressing the pharisees they would have heard what He said and it would not have been necessary for Luke to write "And the Pharisees also ... heard all these things"

٠ According to A.T. Robertson who taught graduate level Greek for 47 years. "Heard (ēkouon). Imperfect active, were listening (all the while Jesus was talking to the disciples (Luk_16:1-13)."
٠ According to John Gill commentary, "heard all these things; as well as the disciples, being in company with them,"

He doesn't address the disciples again until after the parable,. it is very clear.
Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples,

Interesting opinion but no supporting evidence.

Der Alte · Dec 18, 2016

Doveaman said:
This does not change the fact that Man is created in God's image and likeness.The human nature of Man resembles the divine nature of God.

I am created in the image of God but I don't have godlike powers and abilities.

Man is a spirit who dwells in a body. God is a Spirit who dwells in any body.
The spirit of Man also has a mind that inspires Man with thoughts and understanding:
“There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding…For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?” – (Job 32:8, 1 Corinthians 2:11).

I agree with your scripture but not your private interpretation. Do you know of any scholarly studies supporting your interpretations.

The spirit of Man has a mind, but he is not a second person in Man.
The Spirit of God also has a mind, but He is not a third person in God.
That's why God gave us His inspired historical record called the Bible.
Only when I want to know the original meaning of words in the Bible.
That would explain why we find words in the Bible that were not in the original Greek or Hebrew...they are the errors of human influence:

More private interpretation.

"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." -- (Acts 12:4).
The originals say "Passover", the translation says "Easter".
It seems to me your early church sources are not reliable.

The Early church fathers did not translate the KJV

Speaking in a foreign tongue isn't going to help your argument.

IOW you saying "Anything you say which proves me wrong I'm going to reject."

It's not out of context just because you say so.
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth…I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you…If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." – (John 14:16-23).

Can you explain the mechanism through which the Father and Son come to you and make their home with you?

Can you?

"I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." -- (Galatians 2:20).
Can you explain the mechanism through which Christ lives in you?

Can you?

"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ."

Click to expand...

-- (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

Can you explain the mechanism through which you have the mind of Christ?

Can you?

The Father and Son are not just sitting around on thrones while the Holy Spirit does all the work:

I have never said otherwise.

"My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I, too, am working...for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose." -- (John 5:17, Philippians 2:12-13).
Can you explain the mechanism through which God (Father and Son) is working in you?

Can you?

So you have the gift of tongues. Great.

That was to prove a point which you failed to understand.

I prefer the gift of understanding.

Evidently not.

mmksparbud · Dec 18, 2016

Der Alter said:
I would say rather it is you who do not understand and I even highlighted the words which show you to be wrong. If Jesus had been addressing the pharisees they would have heard what He said and it would not have been necessary for Luke to write "And the Pharisees also ... heard all these things"

٠ According to A.T. Robertson who taught graduate level Greek for 47 years. "Heard (ēkouon). Imperfect active, were listening (all the while Jesus was talking to the disciples (Luk_16:1-13)."
٠ According to John Gill commentary, "heard all these things; as well as the disciples, being in company with them,"

Interesting opinion but no supporting evidence.

It says that for it clearly states that he was speaking to the disciples first, then He spoke to the Pharisees then back to the disciples, You can't miss it, unless you don't want to see it. I'm not about to go back and forth over something that is very clearly written. It will be no it's not, yes it is, not it's not, yes it is----no thanks! Read it however you want. And you go ahead and take the word of some man who is supposed to have taught Greek for 47 years and still can not clearly see what the word of God says.
It is still also very clear that God never told Adam and Eve that they would be living forever in hell being tormented if they ate of the tree--there again, you will probably get some guy who taught Hebrew for 50 years to tell you that God did tell them they would be tormented in hell forever.

Der Alte · Dec 18, 2016

mmksparbud said:
It says that for it clearly states that he was speaking to the disciples first, then He spoke to the Pharisees then back to the disciples, You can't miss it, unless you don't want to see it. I'm not about to go back and forth over something that is very clearly written. It will be no it's not, yes it is, not it's not, yes it is----no thanks! Read it however you want. And you go ahead and take the word of some man who is supposed to have taught Greek for 47 years and still can not clearly see what the word of God says.

It is not what I say but what the grammar forces the scripture to say as I showed from two Greek scholars. In these verses the same Greek word καί translated "also" in "the Pharisees also, ... heard all these thing" indicates that what follows is in addition to what precedes.

Luke 16:10
(10) He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also [καί/kai] in much.
Luke 16:22
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also [καί] died, and was buried;
Luk 16:28
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also [καί] come into this place of torment.

But you may feel free to interpret Luke 16:14 to support your assumptions/presuppositions.

It is still also very clear that God never told Adam and Eve that they would be living forever in hell being tormented if they ate of the tree--there again, you will probably get some guy who taught Hebrew for 50 years to tell you that God did tell them they would be tormented in hell forever.

Your Adam and Eve argument is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. The same type of argument, "There were no grandfathers in Bible times because the word does not occur in scripture." Jesus said those on His left hand would go away into "eternal punishment." That's good enough for me.

mmksparbud · Dec 18, 2016

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

It' is pretty sad that a Greek scholar can't understand what is clearly written AND HE SAID UNTO THEM-----ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts----that was not said to the disciples! And He does not speak to His disciples until
Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

It really doesn't take a college professor to understand this.

Kenneth Redden · Dec 18, 2016

Doveaman said:
A person is a distinct individual having separate thoughts and actions that are uniquely his own.

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit are not separate or uniquely His own, but are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son.

“We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.” -- (1 John 4:13).
“For through Him [the Son] we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” -- (Ephesians 2:18)

The thoughts and actions of the Holy Spirit in us are the thoughts and actions of the Father and Son in us.

How, then, is the Holy Spirit a third individual person if His thoughts and actions are not uniquely His own?

I believe the Holy Spirit is clearly shown in Isaiah 11:2 KJV, which lists the seven Spirits of God mentioned in Revelation 1:4, Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:5 and Revelation 5:6 KJV. These are: the Spirit of the LORD and the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, the Spirit of Council and Might, the Spirit of Knowledge and of the Fear of the LORD. This concept is supported with, “Spirit of God,” in Exodus 31:3 and Exodus 35:31 KJV.

ken777 · Dec 19, 2016

Doveaman said:
“I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth…for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” -- (John 14:16-18).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, His own spiritual substance. The Holy Spirit in us is the substance of Christ in us. But the Holy Spirit is a living substance through which the Father and Son express their thoughts and actions in spiritual form.

Your explanation seems so simple and so obvious I don't know why everyone cannot see it.

John 9:37 must confuse those who see "he" as a different person.

.

Chriliman · Dec 19, 2016

alex2165 said:
Der Alter, separating the Holy Spirit from the Father and Son is the action of dividing the GOD as whole.

Answer this question: “Is the GOD Himself Holy Spirit?” For me He is. He is the Holy Spirit Who is from eternity, and eternity Himself.

Is Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit also? Yes He is.

We know that the Jesus Christ is the first creation of GOD.

Colossians 1.15
15.And He (Jesus Christ) is the Image of the invisible GOD, the First-Born of all creation.

First Born of all creation means that before GOD created anything, He first created for Himself a Son, and gave Him His Holy Spirit, so both of Them became identical Holy Spirits.

You perhaps will ask, “Where is in the Bible said that GOD give Christ the Holy Spirit?” It is not necessary to provide this by the Bible because the definition of GOD is His Holy Spirit.

If GOD Father is not Holy Spirit, He is not the GOD.

If Jesus Christ is not Holy Spirit, He is not the GOD.

If GOD is not Holy, He is not GOD - period.

GOD Father gave His Holy Spirit only to His Son and not to anybody else, because His Son is His first Creation of all creations. And this is why all Christian considering Jesus Christ as GOD, equivalent to His Father in all Holiness, Spiritual attributes, and the power.

Fully agree.

alex2165 said:
There is not third creation or any other spiritual entity that has been created by GOD Father and given to the Holy Spirit, it just does not exist.

There are many creations that come after the first born, Jesus Christ, whom have been given the Holy Spirit. I am one of them and I hope you are too. Together we make up the family of God through His Spirit.

Doveaman · Dec 19, 2016

Der Alter said:
I am created in the image of God but I don't have godlike powers and abilities.

Actually, we do.
We have the powers and ability to think, to reason, to plan, to choose, to create, and to love, just as God does.

I agree with any scripture but not your private interpretation.

But yet you refuse to offer any alternative interpretation of the scriptures I quoted.

Do you know of any scholarly studies supporting your interpretations.

Do you know of any alternative scholarly studies of the scriptures I quoted.
I would be happy to hear them.

Here are the scriptures again:

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth…I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you…If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." – (John 14:16-23).

Can you explain the mechanism through which the Father and Son come to you and make their home with you?

"I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." -- (Galatians 2:20).

Can you explain the mechanism through which Christ lives in you?

"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ." -- (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

Can you explain the mechanism through which you have the mind of Christ?

The Father and Son are not just sitting around on thrones while the Holy Spirit does all the work: "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I, too, am working...for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose." -- (John 5:17, Philippians 2:12-13).

Can you explain the mechanism through which God (Father and Son) is working in you?

The Early church fathers did not translate the KJV

But you are the one who said the scholars who translated that English Bible versions studied the writings of the early church to determine the correct meanings of Greek and Hebrew words.
I then showed you a bad translation, "Easter" instead of "Passover", and now you are blaming it on the translators?
Where did the word "Easter" come from?
How did Easter end up as a church custom?

Der Alte · Dec 19, 2016

Doveaman said:
Actually, we do.
We have the powers and ability to think, to reason, to plan, to choose, to create, and to love, just as God does.
But yet you refuse to offer any alternative interpretation of the scriptures I quoted.
Do you know of any alternative scholarly studies of the scriptures I quoted.
I would be happy to hear them.

You know what I am talking about why are you pretending not to?
Previous post omitted already addressed. Please don't ask of me what you are unwilling or unable to provide yourself.

But you are the one who said the scholars who translated that English Bible versions studied the writings of the early church to determine the correct meanings of Greek and Hebrew words.
I then showed you a bad translation, "Easter" instead of "Passover", and now you are blaming it on the translators?
Where did the word "Easter" come from?
How did Easter end up as a church custom?

Your opinion that one word might have been translated wrong does not justify stating/implying that any other words are incorrect. Since you claim that a word was translated incorrectly why don't you show why you think so.
"How did Easter end up as a church custom?" What is known as Easter commemorates the resurrection of Jesus. That is where the custom came from.
As for the name "Easter." Here from "Answers in Genesis."

Our English word Passover, happily, in sound and sense, almost corresponds to the Hebrew [pesach], of which is a translation. Exod. Xii. 27. The Greek pascha, formed from the Hebrew, is the name of the Jewish festival, applied invariably in the primitive church to designate the festival of the Lord’s resurrection, which took place at the time of the passover. Our word Easter is of Saxon origin, and of precisely the same import with its German cognate Ostern. The latter is derived from the old Teutonic form of auferstehn, Auferstehung, i. e. resurrection. The name Easter is undoubtedly preferable to pascha or passover, but the latter was the primitive name.6
.....Because the English Anglo/Saxon language originally derived from the Germanic, there are many similarities between German and English. Many English writers have referred to the German language as the "Mother Tongue!" The English word Easter is of German/Saxon origin and not Babylonian as Alexander Hislop falsely claimed. The German equivalent is Oster. Oster (Ostern being the modern day equivalent) is related to Ostwhich means the rising of the sun, or simply in English, east. Oster comes from the old Teutonic form ofauferstehen / auferstehung, which means resurrection, which in the older Teutonic form comes from two words,Ester meaning first, and stehen meaning to stand. These two words combine to form erstehen which is an old German form of auferstehen, the modern day German word for resurrection.7
Is the Name “Easter” of Pagan Origin?

Is the Holy Spirit really a third individual person?

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

"Super Genius"

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

The day I found 2 Timothy 3:15 KJV!

"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

Everything I need to be joyful is right here

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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