Forgive My Ignorance

Noscentia · Dec 14, 2016

I'm just getting into Christianity in general and in "denomination shopping" this has become a point of contention. Arminianism I understand well enough (though it leaves me with some questions), but Calvinism seems so different from what Christianity I've been exposed to both culturally and in my upbringing. So I have some questions about what Calvinists believe and I apologize if they seem basic.

I'll start with this: by my understanding of Calvinism we have no net effect on whether we can/will be saved, God elects (predeterminedly) who will receive faith and thus salvation. Is it true that those who are called/saved will be inherently Christ-like in their nature once called? If not, is there any way to tell one who is saved from who isn't (meaning their faith is clearly genuine or given)?

Additionally, would it matter if I chose now to live as worldly or sinful a life as I would like if in fact I know that if I am to be saved, I will automatically come to faith when called and be secured for salvation permanently? What motive does anyone have to do good if God is the one who ultimately decides who will be saved and when they will be called and anyone else is already damned?

Lastly, what use is there in praying for the salvation of myself or others when it's acknowledged that nothing I can say or do can have any effect on who ultimately receives it?

I apologize if any of these are misrepresentations or misinterpretations, I'm working solely from what little I've looked into on the subject.

Galatea · Dec 14, 2016

I remember reading something or hearing something from Spurgeon. It is this: God knows everyone who will be saved, but WE don't. If everyone who will be saved had a yellow stripe painted down tbeir backs, we could just go around lifting up the backs of people's shirts to see if they had a stripe. If they did, we'd preach the gospel of salvation to them and if they didn't, we'd let them go on their way without bothering them with our foolishness.

It doesn't work that way. So, pray and witness to everyone. Some will be saved (if they want) some will not (if they don't want).

I'm not good at witnessing because I generally blunder and my life is not what it should be. But I know I ought to be a better witness because I don't know who will choose salvation and who will not (although God does).

This is my viewpoint. I'm not sure if it is Calvinist or Arminian, or something in between.

RC1970 · Dec 14, 2016

Noscentia said:
I'm just getting into Christianity in general and in "denomination shopping" this has become a point of contention. Arminianism I understand well enough (though it leaves me with some questions), but Calvinism seems so different from what Christianity I've been exposed to both culturally and in my upbringing. So I have some questions about what Calvinists believe and I apologize if they seem basic.

I'll start with this: by my understanding of Calvinism we have no net effect on whether we can/will be saved, God elects (predeterminedly) who will receive faith and thus salvation. Is it true that those who are called/saved will be inherently Christ-like in their nature once called? If not, is there any way to tell one who is saved from who isn't (meaning their faith is clearly genuine or given)?

Additionally, would it matter if I chose now to live as worldly or sinful a life as I would like if in fact I know that if I am to be saved, I will automatically come to faith when called and be secured for salvation permanently? What motive does anyone have to do good if God is the one who ultimately decides who will be saved and when they will be called and anyone else is already damned?

Lastly, what use is there in praying for the salvation of myself or others when it's acknowledged that nothing I can say or do can have any effect on who ultimately receives it?

I apologize if any of these are misrepresentations or misinterpretations, I'm working solely from what little I've looked into on the subject.

The bottom line concerning salvation is based on what you "will" to do. By nature we are not willing to receive the things of God. But, by the grace God, some people are made to be willing by the changing of the disposition of their heart, which only God can do.

If God makes you willing, then you will, ultimately, BE willing.

And , if you are willing, then the sin in your life will decrease and faith, with all of it's fruits, will increase.

jimmyjimmy · Dec 14, 2016

Noscentia said:
I'm just getting into Christianity in general and in "denomination shopping" this has become a point of contention. Arminianism I understand well enough (though it leaves me with some questions), but Calvinism seems so different from what Christianity I've been exposed to both culturally and in my upbringing. So I have some questions about what Calvinists believe and I apologize if they seem basic.

I'll start with this: by my understanding of Calvinism we have no net effect on whether we can/will be saved, God elects (predeterminedly) who will receive faith and thus salvation. Is it true that those who are called/saved will be inherently Christ-like in their nature once called? If not, is there any way to tell one who is saved from who isn't (meaning their faith is clearly genuine or given)?

Additionally, would it matter if I chose now to live as worldly or sinful a life as I would like if in fact I know that if I am to be saved, I will automatically come to faith when called and be secured for salvation permanently? What motive does anyone have to do good if God is the one who ultimately decides who will be saved and when they will be called and anyone else is already damned?

Lastly, what use is there in praying for the salvation of myself or others when it's acknowledged that nothing I can say or do can have any effect on who ultimately receives it?

I apologize if any of these are misrepresentations or misinterpretations, I'm working solely from what little I've looked into on the subject.

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are not mutually exclusive. When He bids you, "come", you should go to Him.

Noscentia · Dec 14, 2016

RC1970 said:
The bottom line concerning salvation is based on what you "will" to do. By nature we are not willing to receive the things of God. But, by the grace God, some people are made to be willing by the changing of the disposition of their heart, which only God can do.

If God makes you willing, then you will, ultimately, BE willing.

And , if you are willing, then the sin in your life will decrease and faith, with all of it's fruits, will increase.

Thank you for replying.

This much I think I already understood, and it broadly addresses my first question. I'm not sure if you meant for this to address all three of my questions, but I'm not sure I understand how it might answer the second two.

jimmyjimmy said:
God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are not mutually exclusive. When He bids you, "come", you should go to Him.

I'd like to pose the same two questions asked above to you as well. From what other threads I've seen on topics regarding Calvinism, you seem to have a very strong grasp of the subject.

RC1970 · Dec 14, 2016

Noscentia said:
Thank you for replying.

This much I think I already understood, and it broadly addresses my first question. I'm not sure if you meant for this to address all three of my questions, but I'm not sure I understand how it might answer the second two.

I'd like to pose the same two questions asked above to you as well. From what other threads I've seen on topics regarding Calvinism, you seem to have a very strong grasp of the subject.

If your will is directed toward God, you will not be inclined to a worldly or sinful a life.

It is God's will that we pray for each other. This is not for Gods sake, but for ours. We need to learn to be concerned about the plight of others.

Noscentia · Dec 14, 2016

RC1970 said:
If your will is directed toward God, you will not be inclined to a worldly or sinful a life.

It is God's will that we pray for each other. This is not for Gods sake, but for ours. We need to learn to be concerned about the plight of others.

Is it required that your will be directed towards God in order to be chosen? Do all who are chosen possess certain specific attributes (such as a God-oriented will) before they're called? If so, would emulating those attributes make you any more likely to be among the chosen (assuming your motivations were good)? I don't mean 'faking it' or doing it for one's own gain, but emulating what you might recognize as good behavior, in the same way we try to emulate Christ because we recognize it as the best possible way to be.

So we're not called to pray for others so that God might make any changes in our lives or the lives of others, but just so that we can learn to be more caring? Does caring for others serve any purpose if you have no ability to affect your own salvation?

RC1970 · Dec 15, 2016

Noscentia said:
Is it required that your will be directed towards God in order to be chosen? Do all who are chosen possess certain specific attributes (such as a God-oriented will) before they're called? If so, would emulating those attributes make you any more likely to be among the chosen (assuming your motivations were good)? I don't mean 'faking it' or doing it for one's own gain, but emulating what you might recognize as good behavior, in the same way we try to emulate Christ because we recognize it as the best possible way to be.

So we're not called to pray for others so that God might make any changes in our lives or the lives of others, but just so that we can learn to be more caring? Does caring for others serve any purpose if you have no ability to affect your own salvation?

Before God changes your heart, your will is opposed to the things of God. Only God can change your heart, and, only after God changes your heart are you willing.

If you are not among the chosen, what you do now can either minimize or maximize your torment in hell, but, I doubt that many unsaved people really care about that consequence.

The interesting thing is that if you are concerned enough about your salvation, and earnestly pray to be included, then you probably are already included.

Noscentia · Dec 15, 2016

RC1970 said:
Before God changes your heart, your will is opposed to the things of God. Only God can change your heart, and, only after God changes your heart are you willing.

If you are not among the chosen, what you do now can either minimize or maximize your torment in hell, but, I doubt that many unsaved people really care about that consequence.

The interesting thing is that if you are concerned enough about your salvation, and earnestly pray to be included, then you probably are already included.

Your first and last points are definitely consistent with what I've read about Calvinism before, but I'd never heard about the idea that torture in Hell is proportional to one's sins. I can certainly appreciate the logic of it, is there anything in the Bible which supports that idea?

Also, is your understanding of prayer (that it is simply an exercise for individuals to better learn empathy and not a request for God to actually intervene on behalf of oneself or others) common among Calvinists? Does it have a biblical basis as well?

RC1970 · Dec 15, 2016

Noscentia said:
Also, is your understanding of prayer (that it is simply an exercise for individuals to better learn empathy and not a request for God to actually intervene on behalf of oneself or others) common among Calvinists? Does it have a biblical basis as well?

Prayer is a means of grace along with Bible study, Worship attendance, Christian service, etc. It is for our instruction and benefit, not for Gods. It may be God's will to wait until you pray for something before He does it, but if it is His will, then both (your praying and His doing) are certain to happen.

The best explanation that I have seen for this is from John Piper:

"[Grace] is the free keeping-work of God to sustain our spiritual life that leads to everlasting joy."

"The [means of grace] is our keeping ourselves in the love of God."

"God's 'keeping' inspires and sustains our 'keeping.' His keeping is decisive and our keeping is dependent on his."

RC1970 · Dec 15, 2016

Noscentia said:
Your first and last points are definitely consistent with what I've read about Calvinism before, but I'd never heard about the idea that torture in Hell is proportional to one's sins. I can certainly appreciate the logic of it, is there anything in the Bible which supports that idea?

Matthew 10:15
Luke 12:43-48
Hebrews 10:29
James 3:1

twin1954 · Jan 8, 2017

This might help answer your questions:

God’s Electing Love

Though God’s sovereign election of some sinners unto salvation is hated by the natural man, those who must have their sovereignty over their eternal state, it is actually one of the most humbling and peace giving truths taught in the Scriptures. When the Scriptures speak of God choosing a people unto Himself in sovereign election it is always in the context of electing love.

We must remember that God is not nor ever has been under any obligation to save a single sinner. He could have just as easily damned all of Adam’s race to everlasting torment. For Him to have done so would not have in any way disturbed His sufficiency in Himself. He would remain as satisfied and content in Himself if He had never saved any of us.

But God, who is rich in mercy, grace and love, determined, in infinite wisdom and power, to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy toward chosen sinners. Though there was nothing about any of us to draw His wondrous love for we are all doomed, damned sinners by nature, He set His infinite love on some and gave them in covenant mercy to His Son.

The Son, at the appointed time, came as their Redeemer, Savior and Lord to accomplish all that covenant love required. He stood as Surety for them making all their debt of sin His debt. He made Himself responsible for all their sin and the stood as their substitute on the cursed tree.

As their firstborn brother He rose from the grave and ascended to sit on the throne of all majesty and power as their Intercessor and living King. He does all things for their sakes.

In love the Spirit comes to each chosen sinner by the preaching of the Gospel and gives them life and faith in Christ Jesus the Lord. He lovingly makes them see their need of Him and then reveals the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ.

The elect are an innumerable multitude who are as the sands of the sea and the stars of the sky. What a wonder that the majestic Sovereign of all Creation should set His love on a people who deserve nothing from Him but wrath and punishment. To the sinner who needs saving God’s electing love is a wonder and a joyous truth.

twin1954 · Jan 8, 2017

Noscentia said:
Your first and last points are definitely consistent with what I've read about Calvinism before, but I'd never heard about the idea that torture in Hell is proportional to one's sins. I can certainly appreciate the logic of it, is there anything in the Bible which supports that idea?

Also, is your understanding of prayer (that it is simply an exercise for individuals to better learn empathy and not a request for God to actually intervene on behalf of oneself or others) common among Calvinists? Does it have a biblical basis as well?

We do not twist God's arm by prayer in order to get Him to do something that He wasn't going to do. We seek His will in our prayers and cry out the desire of our soul when we pray. Prayer is for us not for God.

When we pray we claim the promises of God and seek His will in every situation. We pray for our families and others for God to give them life and faith just as He did us but we do so in submission to His sovereign purpose of grace.

In Ezek. 36:22-38 God makes some statements of fact as to what He will do and what they will do. He declares in no uncertain terms what will take place by using the terms "I will" and "you shall". Theses are not so much promises but simple statements of facts.

But in verse 37 of the passage He says this:

(Eze 36:36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

(Eze 36:37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

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