Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments?

jamespyles · Dec 11, 2016

Yarddog said:
No, he gave us a new command. Love. When we have loved, the law has been fulfilled.

Actually, according to Bible Gateway passage: Mark 12:28-34 - New International Version, Jesus condensed the multitude of Torah commandments (traditionally, religious Judaism believes there are 613 commandments) into two general categories, those commandments that have to do with a person's relationship with other people, and those commandments that have to do with a person's relationship with God. He didn't throw away the Torah of Moses commandments, he merely categorized them for his Jewish followers into two big buckets.

He did say he was giving his disciples a new commandment in Bible Gateway passage: John 13:34-35 - New International Version that was on top of the others. That was to love one another as a sign that they were his disciples. Again, he didn't eliminate the Torah of Moses, he added a new commandment specifically for his followers, so others would see their love for one another and know by that that they were Christ's followers.

Keep in mind, Jesus almost exclusively interacted and taught Jews, thus he would have taught in a familiar Torah-based context what was important to them, both under the Mosaic Covenant and the nascent New Covenant (Jer. 31, Ezek. 36). To understand how all this applies (and some of it doesn't apply) to non-Jewish disciples (and non-Jews had never before been included in a Jewish religious sect and participating members so "the Great Commission" and the teachings of Paul were revolutionary), you have to go to Paul, and Paul has been terribly misunderstood, both by Christians and Jews.

Bottom line, what Jesus taught and specifically how it applies to the non-Jewish disciples then and now is an enormously complex topic of study and cannot be reduced down to a single word. The problem most of us labor under is that we don't apply an ancient Jewish context to any of Jesus's teachings, and yet without that context and a thorough Jewish understanding of what we call the Old Testament, we aren't going to understand our Lord and Savior very well.

Soyeong · Dec 11, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
Think about this: Romans 13:8-9. Now, you'll often hear it said that the commandments are basically the way to show love; Paul just said it himself right there. Now look: John 13:34. Now, why did Jesus call this "new commandment"? If the ten commandments define how to love your neighbor; then why did Jesus say a (single, one) "new commandment, I give to you"? Why was it new? If you can understand that; you'll understand the difference between the obedience to the ten commandments, and, obedience to the new commandment given by Jesus.

Matthew 9:17 Greek Text Analysis

If you take a look at the above link, you will seek that there are two different Greeks words that are translated as "new", with "neon" referring to newness with respect to time, such something that is brand new or that has just been made, and with "kainos" referring to newness with respect to quality, such as something that has been restored or refreshed. So the verse is talking about brand new wine being put into restored wineskins.

Getting back to John 13:34, the Greek word used is in regard to newness of quality, and indeed there is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor because that can be found in Leviticus 19:18, so what is new about the command is the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor, as Jesus loves us rather than as we love ourselves. If Jesus had been adding a brand new command, then he would have been sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2.

Yarddog · Dec 11, 2016

Soyeong said:
All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT can be summarized as instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, so if you say that we just need to obey the one command to love and can ignore all of God's other commands for how He wants us to love, then you are missing the point. All of the other laws hang on the greatest two commands, so they are examples that paint a picture of what it looks like to correctly obey the greatest two commands. In Galatians 5:14, it says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law because that demonstrates a full understanding of what the law is essentially about how to do, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, which means that it was not something unique that Jesus did to do away with it. Rather, Jesus fulfilled the law in the same sense that Romans 15:18-19 says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, namely that he taught full obedience to it.

Why should I worry about 1000+ commands when I truly only have to remember ONE. You seem to miss the point, a person who follows Jesus' New Command has already fulfilled the law.

Deadworm · Dec 11, 2016

No, you ignore the evidence in Matthew for Christ as the New Moses or New Lawgiver in fulfilment of the prophecy in the Law (Deuteronomy 18:15-18). The evidence for Jesus' role as the NEW lawgiver is overwhelming in Matthew: e..g the slaughter of innocents; the fulfilment of Hosea 11:1 ("Out of Egypt have I called my Son") in Matthew 2:15, and the well-recognized New Moses typology in the Transfiguration narratives. And you duck the obvious meaning of Luke 16:16 that the Law is no longer in effect after Jesus, i. e. after the completion of His redemptive mission. Romans 10:4 makes it clear that "end" means "end of the Law," and so. the Law's requirements of sacrifices, circumcision and Sabbath observance are now abrogated. The NT teaches that Christ's atoning death is the sacrifice to fulfill and end all sacrifices, and hence to end the Law's jurisdiction.

jamespyles · Dec 11, 2016

Yarddog said:
Why should I worry about 1000+ commands when I truly only have to remember ONE. You seem to miss the point, a person who follows Jesus' New Command has already fulfilled the law.

I tend to think of the Apostolic Scriptures as a form of commentary and interpretation of the first two-thirds of our Bible, so I don't really think there are 1000+ new commandments contained between Matthew and Revelation.

On the other hand, there is a Biblical reality we can't and shouldn't ignore for the sake of the convenience of only having to remember to Love. Besides, what does it mean to "love"? My guess is that if you want to go in that direction, there really are a lot of different ways to act that out besides experiencing an internal emotional state.

Yarddog · Dec 11, 2016

jamespyles said:
I tend to think of the Apostolic Scriptures as a form of commentary and interpretation of the first two-thirds of our Bible, so I don't really think there are 1000+ new commandments contained between Matthew and Revelation.

On the other hand, there is a Biblical reality we can't and shouldn't ignore for the sake of the convenience of only having to remember to Love. Besides, what does it mean to "love"? My guess is that if you want to go in that direction, there really are a lot of different ways to act that out besides experiencing an internal emotional state.

God gave us everything that we need to understand exactly what LOVE means when he gave us his Holy Spirit. The problem is that so few Christians put that Spirit to work in our lives. Through pride, we want to hold onto creating our own salvation instead of letting go of what worldly people tell us to be and embracing the cross.

God gave the Mosaic Law to the Jew, not the Gentile. The Jew failed to obey the Law and Christians fail as well, if they place themselves under it as well.

By embracing the cross and surrendering to the HS we learn to walk in that Spirit, obeying God and not a list of does and don't.

fhansen · Dec 11, 2016

Soyeong said:
The law was given as instructions for how to do what is righteous, but was never given as instructions for how to become righteous through our own effort. Trying to become righteous through obeying the law shows a fundamental misunderstanding of it and it is a perversion of it. Paul went spent a lot of time hammering home the point that obeying the law was not about trying to become justified and that we are justified by faith apart from the law, and this was true of Moses, just as it was true of Abraham and David (Romans 4:1-8). The law has always been about teaching how how to grow in a relationship with Messiah based on faith and love because he is the goal of the law for righteousness for all who believe (Romans 10:4). Prior to Paul's experience on the Damascus road, he had been keeping the law without having a focus on his relationship with Messiah, so he had missed the whole point of keeping it, and counted what he had been doing as rubbish (Philippians 3:8).

Ok-a bit hard to tell if that's an affirmation, a correction, or a rejection of the contents of my post tho.

jamespyles · Dec 11, 2016

Yarddog said:
God gave us everything that we need to understand exactly what LOVE means when he gave us his Holy Spirit. The problem is that so few Christians put that Spirit to work in our lives. Through pride, we want to hold onto creating our own salvation instead of letting go of what worldly people tell us to be and embracing the cross.

God gave the Mosaic Law to the Jew, not the Gentile. The Jew failed to obey the Law and Christians fail as well, if they place themselves under it as well.

By embracing the cross and surrendering to the HS we learn to walk in that Spirit, obeying God and not a list of does and don't.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I agree that God gave the Torah of Moses to Israel at Sinai and it remains with them to this very day. Of course they didn't keep the commandments perfectly and, as you rightly said, Christians don't obey God perfectly either. Fortunately, God has always allowed for repentance of sins (the Jewish sacrificial system only forgave unintended sins, not deliberate sins, so the mechanism of repentance and forgiveness is the same then and now. See Psalm 51 for David's explanation).

Love still has to be operationalized. That is, what do we do to love? We can't just sit and emote and think that saves us. We are saved by faith but faith without a transformed life acting out that love is dead.

I agree that our humanity and free will gets in the way of the Holy Spirit, and each and every one of us has an imperfect relationship with the Spirit because of that.

Someday, according to Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36, God will give Israel a new heart and a new Spirit that will make it second nature for them to obey Him. For those of us who are not Israel but grafted into the blessings of the Covenant, we will be given that Spirit also, but of course our obedience won't look like Jewish obedience since we were not given the Torah (see Acts 15 for an illustration of this). What we have now is only a foreshadowing. When the New Covenant reaches fruition, we shall have completeness through the merit of Messiah, the Christ.

Incidentally, I don't expect you to agree with me, and I suppose we could continue this debate for a long time. I just want to suggest to anyone else reading this, that the Church's traditional interpretation of the Bible might not tell the whole story.

Yarddog · Dec 11, 2016

jamespyles said:
I think you're misunderstanding me.

Please forgive me if I am but I don't think that you understand me , as well.

Love still has to be operationalized. That is, what do we do to love?

No, I don't think one should try and try to do that. That is like the Law, where things are spelled out. Do you have to have someone tell how to love your children? or spouse?
Abraham never had anything listed or spelled out how he should love God. He just did believed and God what God led to do. If you have to have a list of things provided you, by your Church or Minister, then you are putting faith in that person and not God.

We can't just sit and emote and think that saves us. We are saved by faith but faith without a transformed life acting out that love is dead.

The only faithful way to transform is by letting go and actually trusting in the Spirit that you were baptized with. That is loving God.

Incidentally, I don't expect you to agree with me, and I suppose we could continue this debate for a long time. I just want to suggest to anyone else reading this, that the Church's traditional interpretation of the Bible might not tell the whole story.

Well, man does not know the whole story because all has not been revealed. There are mysteries in scripture which only God can reveal for man can only know God through his Spirit.

I don't keep the 10 Commands anywhere in my house because they are not the Way. That was the early Church's reason for being called "The Way". The Jews thought that the Mosaic Law was the way but in reality the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only Way.

Praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ,
and God said, "Let there be light" and Jesus Christ came to those in the darkness, the Jew and Gentile.

Jesus gave us His New Commandment and he gave us the Spirit of God as a helper so that those who live in faith will understand how to love.

God Bless,
your brother in Christ

YouAreAwesome · Dec 11, 2016

classifieddossier said:
Yes. James 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Yes and what are His commandments?
Hint: John 15:12, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 3:11, John 3:7 etc.

YouAreAwesome · Dec 11, 2016

classifieddossier said:
Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

The Catholic Church claimed to change the day but Christians were already worshiping God on Sunday to celebrate His resurrection. But the day isn't changed from Saturday to Sunday because EVERY DAY WE REST IN JESUS. A perpetual Sabbath rest.

Soyeong · Dec 11, 2016

Yarddog said:
Why should I worry about 1000+ commands when I truly only have to remember ONE. You seem to miss the point, a person who follows Jesus' New Command has already fulfilled the law.

Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands, which is plural, so he gave more than one command, and indeed we have many of his commands recorded throughout the Gospels, such as in Matthew 5. It's one thing to note that all of the commands in the Bible have a common theme that allows them to be summarized as being about how to love God and are about how to love our neighbor and quite another to say we just need to obey the one command and don't need to bother with keeping the other commands. That ignores that the one command is a summary of the other commands and that the other commands are the explanation of the one command. Loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law because it is demonstrating a full understand about what the law is essentially about how to do, but if you say we don't need to bother about the other commands and only need to remember one, then then that is not showing a full understanding of the other laws. Jesus was not asked about which commands were important and which commands could be ignored, but about which command was the greatest. When the law was given to Moses, the Israelites fulfilled the entire law through loving each other in accordance with what it commands, so they could not have used that as an excuse not to bother with obeying God's commands. If a command was not important to God for us to keep, then He would not have commanded it. We should seek to love God in the way that He wants us to, so it is because we have the one command to love that all of the other commands for how He wants us to love are important.

Yarddog · Dec 11, 2016

Soyeong said:
Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands, which is plural, so he gave more than one command, and indeed we have many of his commands recorded throughout the Gospels, such as in Matthew 5. It's one thing to note that all of the commands in the Bible have a common theme that allows them to be summarized as being about how to love God and are about how to love our neighbor and quite another to say we just need to obey the one command and don't need to bother with keeping the other commands. That ignores that the one command is a summary of the other commands and that the other commands are the explanation of the one command. Loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law because it is demonstrating a full understand about what the law is essentially about how to do, but if you say we don't need to bother about the other commands and only need to remember one, then then that is not showing a full understanding of the other laws. Jesus was not asked about which commands were important and which commands could be ignored, but about which command was the greatest. When the law was given to Moses, the Israelites fulfilled the entire law through loving each other in accordance with what it commands, so they could not have used that as an excuse not to bother with obeying God's commands. If a command was not important to God for us to keep, then He would not have commanded it. We should seek to love God in the way that He wants us to, so it is because we have the one command to love that all of the other commands for how He wants us to love are important.

Yep, Jesus told us to love the Father with all of our heart, soul, and minds. And he commanded to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Those commandments are all needed.

Soyeong · Dec 11, 2016

Yarddog said:
Yep, Jesus told us to love the Father with all of our heart, soul, and minds. And he commanded to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Those commandments are all needed.

Quite frankly those commands are a lot easier said than done. How do we go about doing that? What does someone's life look like when they are living in obedience to those two commands? Thankfully, God has given all of His other commands as a guide for how to do that.

classifieddossier · Dec 11, 2016

YouAreAwesome said:
The Catholic Church claimed to change the day but Christians were already worshiping God on Sunday to celebrate His resurrection. But the day isn't changed from Saturday to Sunday because EVERY DAY WE REST IN JESUS. A perpetual Sabbath rest.

Incorrect. The Sabbath was always Saturday. The Catholics changed it by lies and force. The Catholics admit to changing the day. They admit Saturday is the correct day. Just like the Jews who knew full well Jesus was the Christ and denied Him, the Catholics chose Sunday for whatever reason knowing full well Saturday is the correct Sabbath denying truth.

John Hyperspace · Dec 11, 2016

Soyeong said:
Matthew 9:17 Greek Text Analysis

If you take a look at the above link, you will seek that there are two different Greeks words that are translated as "new", with "neon" referring to newness with respect to time, such something that is brand new or that has just been made, and with "kainos" referring to newness with respect to quality, such as something that has been restored or refreshed. So the verse is talking about brand new wine being put into restored wineskins.

Getting back to John 13:34, the Greek word used is in regard to newness of quality, and indeed there is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor because that can be found in Leviticus 19:18, so what is new about the command is the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor, as Jesus loves us rather than as we love ourselves. If Jesus had been adding a brand new command, then he would have been sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2.

Here are some other passages using the word "new" or "kainos" to get an idea for the use of "new commandment": now, the question being, why is Jesus calling an "old commadment" the "new commandment"?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new <2537> testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mt 27:60 And laid it in his own new <2537> tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new <2537> tongues;
Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new <2537> sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
Ac 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new <2537> doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Ac 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing <2537>.)
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new <2537> testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new <2537> testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new <2537> creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new <2537>.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new <2537> creature.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new <2537> man, so making peace;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new <2537> man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new <2537> covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new <2537> covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new <2537> song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Re 21:1 And I saw a new <2537> heaven and a new <2537> earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new <2537> Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new <2537>. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

classifieddossier · Dec 11, 2016

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes and what are His commandments?
Hint: John 15:12, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 3:11, John 3:7 etc.

Those passages are great. You will notice in the Hebrew Matthew the truth Jesus directed the people to follow the law of Moses and not the Pharisees tradition. Next you will notice, the only debate in the New Testament was circumcision or the ceremonial law. There was zero debate over the 10 Commandments, it was a given. Jesus kept the law, it was so important he died to show it's importance and urges us to do the same. If the law could change, Jesus didn't need to die. He could have changed the law to meet each person; he did not. He established the law as the only true life.

classifieddossier · Dec 11, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
Here are some other passages using the word "new" or "kainos" to get an idea for the use of "new commandment": now, the question being, why is Jesus calling an "old commadment" the "new commandment"?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new <2537> testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mt 27:60 And laid it in his own new <2537> tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new <2537> tongues;
Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new <2537> sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
Ac 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new <2537> doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Ac 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing <2537>.)
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new <2537> testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new <2537> testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new <2537> creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new <2537>.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new <2537> creature.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new <2537> man, so making peace;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new <2537> man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new <2537> covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new <2537> covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new <2537> song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Re 21:1 And I saw a new <2537> heaven and a new <2537> earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new <2537> Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new <2537>. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The original Matthew in Hebrew is believed to be available. You don't need to analyze Greek.

Yarddog · Dec 11, 2016

Soyeong said:
Quite frankly those commands are a lot easier said than done. How do we go about doing that? What does someone's life look like when they are living in obedience to those two commands? Thankfully, God has given all of His other commands as a guide for how to do that.

They are impossible if you try to live by them because that is not what God wants from us. God wants us to allow his Holy Spirit to lead us to love. That is how we please God. Surrender to the cross.

John Hyperspace · Dec 11, 2016

classifieddossier said:
The original Matthew in Hebrew is believed to be available. You don't need to analyze Greek.

The "new commandment" passage is from John. The Greek use from the other passages is to provide understanding of the meaning of the word translated as "new": the question being: why did Jesus call "love your neighbor" a "new" commandment; and why is this the one-and-only "new commandment"?

Did Jesus tell us to follow Moses 10 commandments?

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