You know why Sabbath keeping is no longer significant? Because it was written on stone.
Also because it wasn't ever written on any persons heart.
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GENTILES OR CHRISTIANS PRACTICING THE SABBATH ?
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Also because it wasn't ever written on any persons heart.
gadar perets
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Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.(The Israelites were to keep the Sabbath holy).
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God (the Sabbath they were to keep holy is the 7th day of the week. Every 7th day is a Sabbath Day.): in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
The Sabbath was made for man. Adam was a man. It was made for Adam and every man born after him. Israelites were to keep it as well since they are also men, but it was not made for just Israelites as you would falsely have us believe.
Yeshua did not speak Greek to them. Therefore, he did not say "ἄνθρωπος". Even so, the Sabbath was made for man. Adam was a man. Therefore, it was made for him and all other men. Yeshua didn't say, "The Sabbath was made for only Israelites" or "The Sabbath was made only for Jews".
Can't you teach your wife or does your wife teach you? Does your wife understand all things in Scripture? Are you her head or not? Or are you deceived into believing the feminist agenda? The fact is, any man who does not teach his wife to keep the Sabbath holy has failed in his responsibility to his wife.
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Here's the facts:
1. We both know that no Sabbath keeping is recorded from Adam to Moses.
2. Ezekiel 20:12 tells us the Sabbaths were given to Israel.
Except I have Ezekiel telling us that it WAS MADE FOR THE ISRAELITES and you have your own opinion telling us it was kept by Adam. You also use "The Sabbath was made for man" to try and prove it has to include Adam, when it can mean either one. And therefore is not a proof.
Of course! We discuss things together. We each bring information for deliberation. We teach each other.
This question exposes your ridiculous mindset towards these things.
And what would you have this mean? That I am the dictator? That I rule all things and that she must submit to my greatness? I am the one who lays my life down and loves, this is the role of "the head". She can do as she pleases. I will love her no matter what.
Aha, so you have hidden motives. Let me tell you something, my wife is awesome, we are of equal intelligence, we make decisions together. When we have differences of opinion, I do not lord it over her. We come to some kind of compromise. I am no more godly than her. I have no extra wisdom. You can take your macho attitude back to the BCE.
Sounds like a line out of some religious comedy. My responsibility is to love my wife, not to make her keep laws from a covenant we've never been under (I have never had Moses as my leader, only Jesus is King in the covenant I have entered into). Like I say, she is an amazing woman, you would do well if you had half the love she does. She's just amazing.
That's right. My heart is not made of stone.
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gadar perets
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1.The Sabbath already existed before it was written on stone at Mt. Sinai (Exodus 16).
Exo 16:28 And YHWH said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
What are these commandments and laws?
2. Eze 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am YHWH your God;
The Israelites did not know YHWH and did not know His laws after being in Egypt for hundreds of years. He had to teach them everything like little babes, including His Sabbaths. So He gave them to them as a special sign.
You never answered my questions; Are you an Israelite through Messiah Yeshua? Have you been grafted onto the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you the seed of Abraham and, by extension, the seed of Isaac and Jacob (Israel)? If your answer is yes, then He has given His Sabbaths to you as well.
Who is giving "opinion"? Who is adding to the Word? Where do you see the word "made" in Ezekiel 20:12? When the Sabbath was "made", Israel didn't even exist.
In your "deliberations", who decided or who taught who the Sabbath is not for NC believers?
gadar perets said: ↑
Does your wife understand all things in Scripture?
I asked you this question in response to your ridiculous question, "Can't your wife understand what she reads?" The answer is, not always. I try to teach her what she doesn't understand. So I asked you if your wife understands all things in Scripture.
gadar perets said: ↑
Are you her head or not?
Yahweh rules all things and we must submit to His greatness. He has a hierarchy of leadership which places Yahweh, Yeshua and the husband as the leaders of the wife. We are to lead our wives in love, but we are to lead them in TRUTH and into doing the will of Yahweh. If the wife does as she pleases, but it is against the will of Yahweh, then it is the husband's responsibility to correct her in love.
gadar perets said: ↑
Or are you deceived into believing the feminist agenda?
I have no doubt you have a wonderful wife. This is not about your wife, but about your responsibility to teach your wife the truth. My "macho attitude" is in line with what Paul taught (1 Cor 14:35 - the husband teaches the wife) in CE, not BCE.
gadar perets said: ↑
The fact is, any man who does not teach his wife to keep the Sabbath holy has failed in his responsibility to his wife.
Oh, that's right. You are the one who said, "Our job is to receive and love. No laws. No commandments but one: believe on the name of Jesus and love." How foolish of me to expect you to teach Yahweh's laws to your wife when you don't believe there are any laws (old or new) except one.
BTW, Moses was not Yeshua's leader, yet Yeshua kept all of the commandments given through Moses. Yeshua knew they weren't commanded by Moses, but by Yahweh. Is Yahweh your leader? If so, obey Him. Show your love to Him by keeping His commandments (1 John 5:3).
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jamespyles
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First off, as I write this, there are 426 prior responses, so no, I didn't read them all.
That said, I do have an interest in this question and my opinion on the topic has changed over the years.
For context, I must say that I'm a non-Jewish believer married to a Jewish non-believer. We've been married 33 years, and when we first wed, neither of us was religious, so we only became a "mixed marriage" later in life.
The missus isn't particularly observant. On some occasions, she'll light the Shabbos candles and say the blessings, but she's not adverse to working and driving on the Shabbat either. Frankly, I wish she'd become more observant for the sake of her being Jewish and performing the mitzvoth, but that's her call, not mine.
Should or can non-Jewish believers observe Shabbos? In my experience, most who think they do, don't anyway so for them, the point is moot. I think we are probably allowed to "remember" the Shabbat, that is, we can voluntarily take on some of the Shabbat rituals, but halachically (if halachah matters to you), it would be forbidden for a Gentile to observe the Shabbat in an identical manner as an observant Jew. Also, technically speaking, since Shabbat is a sign between God and Israel, we Gentiles can't observe the Shabbat.
I mentioned that my wife is Jewish and she tends not to appreciate non-Jews (including me) attempting to observe the mitzvoth in a Jewish manner, but a couple of years or so ago, she was out of the country for a few weeks, and I had two Shabbats to myself. I used a book produced by a Messianic Jewish publishing company as a guide for my Shabbos experiment. It was written specifically for non-Jews but the process was rigorous.
The first Shabbat was a disaster and the second went only a little better, and I know why. Two points: First is that Shabbat is meant to be a family/community event, so trying my own little experiment in isolation was missing the point. The Second is that Shabbat observance is something that takes time to master.
For Jewish children growing up in an observant Jewish home, they see, hear, and experience Shabbat for years before becoming adults. It becomes a familiar pattern over time and it's not something you learn in a weekend. I didn't have that lived experience, so of course, it seemed awkward.
Maybe we non-Jews can appreciate and practice certain aspects of Shabbat as long as we don't try to perfectly imitate Jewish praxis or believe we are actually performing the mitzvah. Actually, I wish we could participate. I could use the rest.
That said, I do have an interest in this question and my opinion on the topic has changed over the years.
For context, I must say that I'm a non-Jewish believer married to a Jewish non-believer. We've been married 33 years, and when we first wed, neither of us was religious, so we only became a "mixed marriage" later in life.
The missus isn't particularly observant. On some occasions, she'll light the Shabbos candles and say the blessings, but she's not adverse to working and driving on the Shabbat either. Frankly, I wish she'd become more observant for the sake of her being Jewish and performing the mitzvoth, but that's her call, not mine.
Should or can non-Jewish believers observe Shabbos? In my experience, most who think they do, don't anyway so for them, the point is moot. I think we are probably allowed to "remember" the Shabbat, that is, we can voluntarily take on some of the Shabbat rituals, but halachically (if halachah matters to you), it would be forbidden for a Gentile to observe the Shabbat in an identical manner as an observant Jew. Also, technically speaking, since Shabbat is a sign between God and Israel, we Gentiles can't observe the Shabbat.
I mentioned that my wife is Jewish and she tends not to appreciate non-Jews (including me) attempting to observe the mitzvoth in a Jewish manner, but a couple of years or so ago, she was out of the country for a few weeks, and I had two Shabbats to myself. I used a book produced by a Messianic Jewish publishing company as a guide for my Shabbos experiment. It was written specifically for non-Jews but the process was rigorous.
The first Shabbat was a disaster and the second went only a little better, and I know why. Two points: First is that Shabbat is meant to be a family/community event, so trying my own little experiment in isolation was missing the point. The Second is that Shabbat observance is something that takes time to master.
For Jewish children growing up in an observant Jewish home, they see, hear, and experience Shabbat for years before becoming adults. It becomes a familiar pattern over time and it's not something you learn in a weekend. I didn't have that lived experience, so of course, it seemed awkward.
Maybe we non-Jews can appreciate and practice certain aspects of Shabbat as long as we don't try to perfectly imitate Jewish praxis or believe we are actually performing the mitzvah. Actually, I wish we could participate. I could use the rest.
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gadar perets
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We "remember" Shabbat by keeping it holy. I'm not sure what you mean by an "identical manner as an observant Jew". The main thing to do is not work. As for the sign, I don't know if I have Jewish roots, but if I am a Gentile believer, then I am grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel. I have become the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Israel through Messiah Yeshua. I am no longer a Gentile. Shabbat is for me as an Israelite, but it was also "made" for man (Mark 2:27). That includes me as well as all mankind. Yahweh's creatures remember His great work of creation by resting as He did. I also know that it is Yahweh, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who sanctifies me.
There is nothing prohibiting you from keeping Shabbat except the prohibitions/tradition of men. It takes some getting used to just as the Israelites in Exodus 16 needed time to get used to it and learn how to keep it holy.
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Sabbath keeping should be between you and the Lord, since it is all about the relationship with God. All the traditions attached, are for the most part Jewish, and should remain so. Gentiles, on the other hand, especially those who come to accept Yeshua, Lord of the Sabbath, to be their guide in keeping it in honor of His Lordship.
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jamespyles
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Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree. My views on this topic are quite a bit different.
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How does this:
1. We both know that no Sabbath keeping is recorded from Adam to Moses.
2. Ezekiel 20:12 tells us the Sabbaths were given to Israel.
Contradict this:
The first time we hear of the word Sabbath from the Creation to Moses is Exodus 16. So point 1 remains.
Your answer to point 2 is opinion. Your opinion is that God reinstated the Sabbath command because they forgot. Show where it says this in the bible. You can't. Because it doesn't. You just made it up. What the Bible does say, as I've said many times now, is that God gave Sabbaths to the Israelites.
Yes.
Oh, just like the sacrifices are for me? Because after all these posts you still haven't made a distinction between Sabbaths and sacrifices. Both point to Jesus symbolically. Jesus fulfilled both. The only reason presented so far is that the Sabbath was written on stone and placed in the ark. I'm sorry, but this is not a reason. I could just as easily argue that BECAUSE the Sabbath was placed on stones IT NO LONGER APPLIES. So the distinction remains unproven.
Paul. Romans 7:1-7. When Paul says "she is released" from the law, the word released is strongs #2673, which is the same as Ephesians 2:15 i.e. translated abolished. To be joined to Christ the whole old law must be abolished.
Huh? First, I just noticed your marital status says single. Second, does she teach you what you don't understand?
As it is the wifes responsibility to correct her husband if he goes against the will of God.
Thank you! I'm grateful that you understand my position.
Galatians 4:4 says Jesus was born under the Mosaic Law, why? To redeem those under the law (4:5). Not to show us how to live under it.
Yes, He did.
Yes, I do.
1. We both know that no Sabbath keeping is recorded from Adam to Moses.
2. Ezekiel 20:12 tells us the Sabbaths were given to Israel.
Contradict this:
The first time we hear of the word Sabbath from the Creation to Moses is Exodus 16. So point 1 remains.
Your answer to point 2 is opinion. Your opinion is that God reinstated the Sabbath command because they forgot. Show where it says this in the bible. You can't. Because it doesn't. You just made it up. What the Bible does say, as I've said many times now, is that God gave Sabbaths to the Israelites.
Yes.
Oh, just like the sacrifices are for me? Because after all these posts you still haven't made a distinction between Sabbaths and sacrifices. Both point to Jesus symbolically. Jesus fulfilled both. The only reason presented so far is that the Sabbath was written on stone and placed in the ark. I'm sorry, but this is not a reason. I could just as easily argue that BECAUSE the Sabbath was placed on stones IT NO LONGER APPLIES. So the distinction remains unproven.
Paul. Romans 7:1-7. When Paul says "she is released" from the law, the word released is strongs #2673, which is the same as Ephesians 2:15 i.e. translated abolished. To be joined to Christ the whole old law must be abolished.
Huh? First, I just noticed your marital status says single. Second, does she teach you what you don't understand?
As it is the wifes responsibility to correct her husband if he goes against the will of God.
Thank you! I'm grateful that you understand my position.
Galatians 4:4 says Jesus was born under the Mosaic Law, why? To redeem those under the law (4:5). Not to show us how to live under it.
Yes, He did.
Yes, I do.
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gadar perets
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Is "agree to disagree" a euphemism for "I don't want to take the time to express my views and seek unity of understanding"?
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jamespyles
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It means I've been involved in these sorts of debates endless times before and it will serve no useful purpose to wage a "religious war" between us. I also dislike personalizing disagreements and being baited into doing so.
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Since time has been marked off by God, and the people of God recognize the "separate" and enter into "His Rest", their experiences are blessed by Him, as He said. He, being the Lord of the Sabbath, has this time set aside [set apart] and it has significance that effects the whole week, the whole time from the beginning, when He sanctified it, blessed, to the time of the end when we will enter into the millennium Sabbath rest.
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gadar perets
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You didn't answer my questions about Exodus 16.
Exo 16:28 And YHWH said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
What are these commandments and laws?
My "opinion" is the logical conclusion. Your opinion that the Sabbath, even though it was made on day 7 "for man", was never kept by any man until Moses is far illogical than my view. It is plain and simple that you refuse to believe Yeshua's words.
I already addressed this and not with the written on stone argument.
"She is released" from the law binding her to her husband. She is not released from all other laws as well. Paul is using the example of the law of marriage to show how we are freed from the law of sin and death, not from the Law of Yahweh.
Recently divorced on the grounds of adultery.
He redeemed us from the curse of the law of sin and death. If you break the law (sin) you are paid with death. Yeshua paid the death penalty to release us from the curse. He didn't release us from holy, just and good functions of the law. As Paul said, he serves the law of God with his inner man/mind. His mind desires to obey, but his flesh yields to the law of sin. We are freed from the law of sin and death so that we can serve the law of God (Romans 7:22-8:2)
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It has never been written on any persons heart. Ever. It was written on stone. God's very Word is written on the heart of a believer - this is the NEW covenant (different from the old). The one who HEARS HIS VOICE and WALKS WITH HIM in communion understand the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was "You speak to God Moses, if He speaks to us we will die". The New Covenant is "Speak to us God!". His beautiful peaceful perpetual rest on His Word. It is great delusion to live under the Old Covenant as that covenant is dead. It no longer exists. You are no longer married to the deceased. You are married to the Living God.
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gadar perets
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Where are we told "God's very Word is written on our hearts"? Jeremiah 31:33 says "Torah" is written on the hearts of NC believers. Torah is a specific part of God's Word (dabar). The Word includes the Law, Prophets and Writings, but the Prophets and Writings are not written on our hearts. ONLY Torah (the Law) is written there.
It is a great delusion to believe Sabbath keepers live under the Old Covenant. That is the adversaries way of keeping people from walking in the truth of the Sabbath.
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From Jeremiah 31
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.
From John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
From Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone [a heart desiring to obey stone laws for blessing] and give you a heart of flesh [a heart that listens to the Holy Spirits voice personally].
What is Torah? It is Gods instruction. This is no longer external instruction, where we each teach each other, but internal instruction, where we walk in love. His instruction personally on our heart. i.e. those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires (Romans 8:5).
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