New or Re-newed Covenant

CherubRam said:

I understood your post. Here is a question: Did God revoke any laws fulfilling any prophecy?

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If I understand your question correctly, not that I am aware of.

gadar perets said:

This depends on the understanding of the crowd. If a person in the crowd does not know it is wrong to work on the Sabbath or eat pig and I give him bacon to eat or pay him to mow my lawn on Sabbath, then when I ask him if I hurt him, he will obviously say no. Sadly, he will actually think I blessed him.

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My post was about the Gentiles who had no law, by nature fulfilling the law through the exercise of conscience (Romans 2:14-15). Conscience lets us know when we have hurt someone in some way. Conscience doesn't tell us not to eat certain foods, and not to pick up sticks on a certain day. Do you seriously believe that people who did not have the law of Moses, did the law of Moses by nature? That Gentiles in China didn't pick up sticks on the last day of the week by nature? That people in India didn't eat bacon because it hurt their conscience?

Paul is clearly speaking of the Gentiles fulfilling the law through the spirit of love, which is the spirit of the law itself. They fulfilled the spirit of the law because they had in the hearts the law written by love of others. That law says "do no hurt to others" which means "do no murder, do no theft, do no false witness" as well as "do no punching; do no cutting; do no burning down of house; do no framing for crimes; do no hitting in the head with a jagged rock; do no rape; do no mocking to tears; do no leaving in a ditch when found assaulted by thieves; do no walking by and ignoring when in need" and any other form of "do no" that comes from "do love"

gadar perets said:

I agree. We can worship God seven days a week. However, to work on the Sabbath dishonors the Almighty.

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Not literally under the new covenant. To literally work on the literal Sabbath doesn't dishonour God; to spiritually work in the spiritual Sabbath (which is to say, to attempt to secure salvation by doing works of the law to add to the finished work of Christ) does indeed profane the Sabbath (the rest from works found in reliance on the work of Christ alone).

gadar perets said:

There is no such thing as "ritual law" and even if there was, on what grounds do you add the Sabbath to them?

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A ritual law is a law that is only knowable by being prescribed. If no one ever tells a person "rest on the last day of the week" the person will never naturally know to do this, and will never feel a guilty conscience for working on the last day of the week. A ritual law is any law that is not naturally understood through conscience. Breaking a ritual law would not cause a Gentile a guilty conscience; breaking a moral law, will.

gadar perets said:

Messiah Yeshua did NOT fulfill the blessing of physical rest on the 7th day of the week. For thousands of years mankind was blessed with such rest because Yahweh put His blessing on the 7th day (Genesis 2:3). Did Yahweh or Yeshua take that blessing from us? No. Then who did?

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Jesus does indeed fulfill the blessing of rest: Matthew 11:28. As for physical rest, you can enjoy that blessing by sitting down when you're tired. You don't have to wait for a specific day of the week.

visionary said:

In the angel's message, and I mean he is shouting it out loud, Worship Him who created heaven and earth in the Book of Revelation... just how are you going to obey that?

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By loving others. To care for my fellows and help them in their times of suffering and need. I believe those who imagine one day we will all be prostrate on the ground before a man on a throne saying "O God we worship you thusly" are still young in understanding; comprehending God with the earthly mind. True worship is in spirit and truth: it is to "visit the orphans and widows in their time of grief" and to be of cheerful service in love to others in need. James 1:27, John 4:20-21, John 4:23-24

CherubRam said:

If Abraham is the Father of many nations, then who is a Jew?

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I don't understand the relevance. What does Abraham have to do with Jeremiah?

John Hyperspace said:

My post was about the Gentiles who had no law, by nature fulfilling the law through the exercise of conscience (Romans 2:14-15). Conscience lets us know when we have hurt someone in some way. Conscience doesn't tell us not to eat certain foods, and not to pick up sticks on a certain day. Do you seriously believe that people who did not have the law of Moses, did the law of Moses by nature? That Gentiles in China didn't pick up sticks on the last day of the week by nature? That people in India didn't eat bacon because it hurt their conscience?

Paul is clearly speaking of the Gentiles fulfilling the law through the spirit of love, which is the spirit of the law itself. They fulfilled the spirit of the law because they had in the hearts the law written by love of others. That law says "do no hurt to others" which means "do no murder, do no theft, do no false witness" as well as "do no punching; do no cutting; do no burning down of house; do no framing for crimes; do no hitting in the head with a jagged rock; do no rape; do no mocking to tears; do no leaving in a ditch when found assaulted by thieves; do no walking by and ignoring when in need" and any other form of "do no" that comes from "do love"

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The Gentiles Paul was referring to were not New Covenant believers with the law written in their hearts. They had some aspects of the law in their hearts like do not murder. That was enough law to condemn them come judgment day if they murdered someone. As for conscience, my conscience bothers me if I accidentally give someone something unclean to eat or if I break the Sabbath in some way. Why? Because those laws are written in my mind and heart. I did not fight against the Spirit as it sought to write them there.

It is because the spirit of love is in my heart that I would do everything I can to insure that I don't cause another to break the Sabbath or eat unclean.

John Hyperspace said:

Not literally under the new covenant. To literally work on the literal Sabbath doesn't dishonour God; to spiritually work in the spiritual Sabbath (which is to say, to attempt to secure salvation by doing works of the law to add to the finished work of Christ) does indeed profane the Sabbath (the rest from works found in reliance on the work of Christ alone).

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You have embraced the spirit of the law and thrown out the letter. Yeshua said to hate someone is to break the command "Thou shall not murder". He did not abolish the letter. Murder is still forbidden. He magnified the law to include forbidding to hate. Yeshua said to lust after a women in one's heart is to commit adultery. He did not abolish the letter. Adultery is still forbidden. He magnified the law to include lust in the heart.

A ritual law is a law that is only knowable by being prescribed. If no one ever tells a person "rest on the last day of the week" the person will never naturally know to do this, and will never feel a guilty conscience for working on the last day of the week. A ritual law is any law that is not naturally understood through conscience. Breaking a ritual law would not cause a Gentile a guilty conscience; breaking a moral law, will.

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Every "moral" law is prescribed. You are assuming which laws are ritual and which are moral.

Jesus does indeed fulfill the blessing of rest: Matthew 11:28. As for physical rest, you can enjoy that blessing by sitting down when you're tired. You don't have to wait for a specific day of the week.

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Yeshua does NOT fulfill our physical rest. He does fulfill our spiritual rest. There is much more to the Sabbath rest than sitting down on a specific day.

gadar perets said:

You have embraced the spirit of the law and thrown out the letter. Yeshua said to hate someone is to break the command "Thou shall not murder". He did not abolish the letter. Murder is still forbidden. He magnified the law to include forbidding to hate. Yeshua said to lust after a women in one's heart is to commit adultery. He did not abolish the letter. Adultery is still forbidden. He magnified the law to include lust in the heart.

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Both of those commandments are about love. You won't murder people if you love others; you won't commit adultery if you love your spouse. The letter of the law is the law outside of yourself, carved in stone (it's for the stony hearted); the spirit of the law is the law inside yourself, written on the heart (it's for the fleshly hearted). If you have love in your heart for others, the law is written in your heart of flesh and it is the spirit of love that stops you from hurting others by murder, adultery, etc. If you do not have love in your heart for others, the law is carved on tables of stone outside of you and it is the threat of punishment that stops you from murder, adultery, etc. The law was not given to people who have love in their heart (since they are a 'law unto themselves') the law was given to people without love in their hearts.

If all law were repealed tomorrow, would you go on a murder spree? If no, why not? Whoever would go on murder sprees if the law were repealed, are the only people who the law was made for: to threaten them into not hurting others: 1 Timothy 1:9 This is why Paul said the Gentiles did by nature the law, by the means of their conscience either accusing or excusing them, and why John says that if the heart doesn't condemn us then we are blameless: 1 John 3:20-21 No Gentile's conscience accuses them when they pick up sticks on Saturday, and no Gentile's heart condemns them when they eat bacon. This only happens to people who are under the law of Moses, and Moses is their accuser: John 5:45

gadar perets said:

Every "moral" law is prescribed. You are assuming which laws are ritual and which are moral.

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I'm not assuming anything. It's a fact of the moral matter that no one ever having heard the commandment not to eat bacon will find their conscience and heart accusing and condemning for eating strips of bacon. The only moral laws are the laws that, when broken, cause an evil conscience: these laws are always an extension of love which is in the heart of those that love others, and this is the spirit of the law and the only thing that matters. A person that has no guilty conscience for hurting others is a person who the law was given to, to threaten them with fear to keep them from hurting others.

gadar perets said:

Yeshua does NOT fulfill our physical rest. He does fulfill our spiritual rest. There is much more to the Sabbath rest than sitting down on a specific day.

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Our physical rest is fulfilled in sitting down when we're tired. This works on any day.

John Hyperspace said:

The law was not given to people who have love in their heart (since they are a 'law unto themselves') the law was given to people without love in their hearts.

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Surely you jest. So you are saying Gentile unbelievers had love in their hearts, but the Israelites didn't???

If all law were repealed tomorrow, would you go on a murder spree? If no, why not? Whoever would go on murder sprees if the law were repealed, are the only people who the law was made for: to threaten them into not hurting others: 1 Timothy 1:9 This is why Paul said the Gentiles did by nature the law, by the means of their conscience either accusing or excusing them, and why John says that if the heart doesn't condemn us then we are blameless: 1 John 3:20-21 No Gentile's conscience accuses them when they pick up sticks on Saturday, and no Gentile's heart condemns them when they eat bacon. This only happens to people who are under the law of Moses, and Moses is their accuser: John 5:45

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"No Gentile's conscience accuses them" because they do not know Yahweh's will. Neither do those who oppose the Law. Faith does not make the Law void. It establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

I'm not assuming anything. It's a fact of the moral matter that no one ever having heard the commandment not to eat bacon will find their conscience and heart accusing and condemning for eating strips of bacon.

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The fact is, when the Day of Yahweh comes, people that eat swine's flesh (including bacon) will receive of His fiery judgment (Isaiah 66:15-17). How is that just if people are now free to eat swine's flesh?

A person that has no guilty conscience for hurting others is a person who the law was given to, to threaten them with fear to keep them from hurting others.

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Are you saying the entire nation of Israel had no guilty conscience for hurting others since the Law was given to them?????

gadar perets said:

Surely you jest. So you are saying Gentile unbelievers had love in their hearts, but the Israelites didn't???

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This isn't the spirit of the words. Some Jews had love, and, some Gentiles also had love. Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who, by nature, kept the law, and became a "law unto themselves"; the question being, how did Gentiles who did not have the law, by nature, keep the law? The answer is, by conscience.

gadar perets said:

"No Gentile's conscience accuses them" because they do not know Yahweh's will. Neither do those who oppose the Law. Faith does not make the Law void. It establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

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And yet somehow they kept the law without having the law in stone. Apparently they knew God's will: love your neighbor. They didn't need the ritual commandments because those were only for the Jews through whom Jesus - the One fulfilling them - would come. Thus the shadow of the law "pointed" to Christ: Galatians 3:24-25 and Christ pointed us to love: John 13:34 Those with love for others are not longer under the law, but, under the grace: by and through the love written in their hearts: 1 John 3:14. Now a person with love in their heart no longer needs a "schoolmaster"; they no longer need the law in stone to threaten them into acting like a loving person; because they have a conscience that guides their actions, and by which, conscience will judge them of their own heart.

Why do you suppose Jesus called this the "new commandment"? Was it not part of the old? Why then did He call it "new commandment"? Because it is the commandment of the "new covenant"?

gadar perets said:

The fact is, when the Day of Yahweh comes, people that eat swine's flesh (including bacon) will receive of His fiery judgment (Isaiah 66:15-17). How is that just if people are now free to eat swine's flesh?

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You're citing the Lord speaking according to old covenant conditionals. This covenant was fulfilled in Christ, and passed away in the gospel of Christ: Hebrews 7:17-19, Hebrews 8:13. We are under the new covenant of the priesthood of Melchizedek with the new command; the old covenant of the priesthood of Aaron with the old commands is gone. Now that Isaiah conditional is "whosoever loves not his neighbor" will get the fire of wrath. Because eating bacon doesn't hurt anyone. The man who loves his neighbor seeks no ill-will: Romans 13:10.

gadar perets said:

Are you saying the entire nation of Israel had no guilty conscience for hurting others since the Law was given to them?????

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No. I am saying that the law was given to threaten all of Israel into acting as though they all had love in their hearts. Some Israelites had love in their heart and didn't need the law that was given; some had no love in their hearts and needed the law that was given to threaten them with wrath in order to protect their neighbors from them. But the law was given to all Israel as a means to ensure love by all Israel whether by nature, or, by threat of punishment.

If we lived in a city filled with loving people, there is no need at all for the government to legislate a law "do no murder; or you will be hanged" as the law is unnecessary. People's own love in their hearts cause them to obey the spirit of that law without the legislation of threat against the action. It's only when the city is mixed with both people that have love and conscience, and those that do not, that government need legislate "do no murder; or you will be hanged" and that legislation is specifically being enforced upon the people with no love or conscience. That law is to threaten them with retaliation for unloving crimes, in order to protect others from them. But that law is not for people who love, whose own heart forbid them from doing murder: they are a 'law unto themselves' fulfilling the spirit of the law without needing to be under legislative threat of retaliation.

CherubRam said:

You said, quote: "This prophecy is regarding Israel and Judah. There's no other indication of a secondary meaning at all. Not one, not even implied. There's no room for speculation." And I said, quote: "If Abraham is the Father of many nations, then who is a Jew?"

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He may be a father of many nations, but... No one can claim to be part of his family who is not circumcised.

John Hyperspace said:

This isn't the spirit of the words. Some Jews had love, and, some Gentiles also had love. Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who, by nature, kept the law, and became a "law unto themselves"; the question being, how did Gentiles who did not have the law, by nature, keep the law? The answer is, by conscience.

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If this were true, then all Gentiles that have a conscience would not break the law. Yet Paul says that the carnal mind (which all unconverted Gentiles have) is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be (Romans 8:7). I believe Paul is speaking in a very limited, general way in Romans 2:14-15. He is not saying all Gentiles have the Law written in their hearts, but that the "works of the Law" are written in some limited way in their hearts. There are Gentiles that would not murder and others who would and think they are doing good. The emphasis of Paul's words are not pro-Gentile and anti-Torah, but against transgressors of the Law and for "doers of the Law".

And yet somehow they kept the law without having the law in stone. Apparently they knew God's will: love your neighbor. They didn't need the ritual commandments because those were only for the Jews through whom Jesus - the One fulfilling them - would come.

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Why is the ritual commandment concerning divorce still applicable to believers? Didn't Yeshua fulfill that so that there is no more divorce? Is the "ritual commandment" against taking Yahweh's name in vain fulfilled by Yeshua so that we can no longer take His name in vain?

Thus the shadow of the law "pointed" to Christ

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The Law was NOT a shadow. The Law had shadows within it that pointed to Messiah.

Those with love for others are not longer under the law, but, under the grace: by and through the love written in their hearts: 1 John 3:14. Now a person with love in their heart no longer needs a "schoolmaster"; they no longer need the law in stone to threaten them into acting like a loving person; because they have a conscience that guides their actions, and by which, conscience will judge them of their own heart.

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"Under the law" means under its condemnation. Those who keep Torah under the New Covenant are no longer under the condemnation found in the Law. Grace took the place of condemnation. Grace did NOT take the place of law. The law in stone was not meant to threaten people into acting like a loving person. It was meant to point out when we fail to act as loving people (to point out sin). It was the condemnation phase of the law that threatened people with curses or death. That phase was lifted, but the laws on stone remain. Yet, they are no longer on stone, but written on the fleshly tables of our hearts (all ten of them).

Why do you suppose Jesus called this the "new commandment"? Was it not part of the old? Why then did He call it "new commandment"? Because it is the commandment of the "new covenant"?

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To "love one another" is an abbreviated form of the "new commandment". The "new commandment" in its entirety is found in John 13:34;


This is a magnification of Leviticus 19:18 in that we are not only to love our neighbor as we love our self, but even as Messiah loved us to the point of dying for us.

You're citing the Lord speaking according to old covenant conditionals. This covenant was fulfilled in Christ, and passed away in the gospel of Christ: Hebrews 7:17-19, Hebrews 8:13. We are under the new covenant of the priesthood of Melchizedek with the new command; the old covenant of the priesthood of Aaron with the old commands is gone. Now that Isaiah conditional is "whosoever loves not his neighbor" will get the fire of wrath. Because eating bacon doesn't hurt anyone. The man who loves his neighbor seeks no ill-will: Romans 13:10.

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The fiery judgment spoken of in Isaiah 66 is in our future. How can the Almighty slay people in the future that eat swine's flesh if His own people eat swine's flesh??? The fact is, His own people are not supposed to eat swine's flesh. They were deceived by false teachers into believing it is OK to eat what Yahweh calls "abominations". We are to be holy as He is holy. One of the ways to be holy is by eating only clean meat.

No. I am saying that the law was given to threaten all of Israel into acting as though they all had love in their hearts. Some Israelites had love in their heart and didn't need the law that was given; some had no love in their hearts and needed the law that was given to threaten them with wrath in order to protect their neighbors from them. But the law was given to all Israel as a means to ensure love by all Israel whether by nature, or, by threat of punishment.

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Everyone needs the Law because the Law tells us when we sin (Romans 3:20). When we know we sinned, we go to Yahweh for forgiveness through Yeshua's shed blood. However, when we do away with the Law, we have nothing to tell us we sinned. Our conscience functions in conjunction with the Law. Our conscience will convict us because we know we broke a certain law. If we believe a law like the Sabbath has been abolished, then our conscience will not convict us of sin when we break it. The wiles of Satan strikes again. He has duped the majority of Christianity into abolishing Yahweh's holy, just and good laws so they cannot be convicted of sin.

If we lived in a city filled with loving people, there is no need at all for the government to legislate a law "do no murder; or you will be hanged" as the law is unnecessary. People's own love in their hearts cause them to obey the spirit of that law without the legislation of threat against the action. It's only when the city is mixed with both people that have love and conscience, and those that do not, that government need legislate "do no murder; or you will be hanged" and that legislation is specifically being enforced upon the people with no love or conscience. That law is to threaten them with retaliation for unloving crimes, in order to protect others from them. But that law is not for people who love, whose own heart forbid them from doing murder: they are a 'law unto themselves' fulfilling the spirit of the law without needing to be under legislative threat of retaliation.

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I agree somewhat. "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient ...". Yet, even a righteous man may sin at times. The law tells him he sinned. If a righteous man's flesh overcomes him through temptation and he commits adultery, the law tells him he sinned. He then goes to Yahweh for forgiveness. The law, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" does not threaten him into obedience. It merely tells him what he should not do. It is Leviticus 20:10 that adds the threat. Yeshua paid the penalty of Leviticus 20:10 for us. That condemnation has been lifted because the penalty has been paid. Yet, under the New Covenant, Yeshua, Paul, James and Peter warn believers against committing adultery. Why? Because the command still exists even though the death penalty doesn't, but only in Messiah. Those who are not in Messiah will pay for their adultery with their life.

danny ski said:

He may be a father of many nations, but... No one can claim to be part of his family who is not circumcised.

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Circumcision the outward sign that one physically belongs to the family of Abraham.

Jeremiah 31:32, the law written on the heart, the circumcision of the heart.
The Lord can circumcise any heart He chooses to, including the heart of a Gentile, bringing him into the family of Abraham. Just as He did in Israel for thousands of years.

"Covenant" is not there in the Greek text itself.

Hank77 said:

Circumcision the outward sign that one physically belongs to the family of Abraham.

Jeremiah 31:32, the law written on the heart, the circumcision of the heart.
The Lord can circumcise any heart He chooses to, including the heart of a Gentile, bringing him into the family of Abraham. Just as He did in Israel for thousands of years.

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That would violate what Gd commanded Abraham. So, incorrect. Circumcision is a minimum qualification to belong to that particular family.

Both Aramaic "khawdata" and Hebrew "chadasha" mean to renew, to repair or to make anew.

• "You chadash (renew) your witnesses against me, and increase your indignation upon me; changes and war are against me." (Job 10:17)
  
• "Create in me a clean heart, O Elohim; and chadash (renew) a right spirit within me."(Psalm 51:10)
  
• Who satisfies your mouth with good things; so that your youth is chadash (renewed) like the eagle's." (Psalm 103: 4)
  
• "Turn Thou us unto you, O YHWH, and we shall be turned; chadash (renew) our days as of old." (Lam. 5:21)

Isaiah 61:4 also uses chadash to refer to those in Mashiyach who: "...chadash (repair) the waste cities, the desolations of many generations."

visionary said:

"Covenant" is not there in the Greek text itself.

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The absence of the word "covenant" is irrelevant. The word "new" in Hebrews 8:13 is referring back to the word "new" used in verse 8 which is a quote of Jeremiah 31:31.