razzelflabben said in post 432:
Consider what scripture tells us about our assurance of salvation...Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22...
Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, they, like Ephesians 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 5:5, mean that the measure of the Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus' second coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
razzelflabben said in post 432:
...if one does not see the evidence of the HS as God says there will be, there are three options 1. God is a liar which most will not accept, myself included 2. I am not saved and therefore the easy believism that is taught in the church is somehow flawed or 3. I am beyond being saved, which again most disagree with.
If 1 is true, then there is no God and salvation would then be a moot point.
If 2 is true, then the church needs to start teaching that belief is of the heart not the mind . . .
Regarding "belief is of the heart not the mind", note that Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must be also a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to correct (i.e. Biblical) doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).
For example, in order for people to be saved, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the correct doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).
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Also, it has been claimed that magnetic fields applied to certain areas of the brain can cause a subject who is alone in a room to sense other human-shaped entities in the room. Materialists could explain this as a magnetically-induced spatial displacement of the subject's mental image of his own body. This might be correct. Or in some cases it could involve a magnetically-induced enhancement of the subject's brain so that he can sense spiritual entities, whether a spatially displaced sense of his own spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), or a spatially correct sense of an external spiritual entity such as a guardian angel (cf. Acts 12:15b), a fallen angel (Ephesians 6:12), a demon (Mark 5:8), or a ghost (Luke 24:37).
So it is possible that sometime in the future, scientists could magnetically induce something like believers' experience of the Holy Spirit, if by employing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), scientists are able to find the part of believers' brains which is most active when they are sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to worship music and worshipping God), and which shows little to no activity when they are not sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to a sports talk show). If there is such a part of the brain, scientists could then apply magnetic fields to it while Christian subjects are not sensing the Holy Spirit, and then see if it induces something like a sense of the Holy Spirit in them without any other external stimuli.
If scientists manage to do this, it could be employed by the future Antichrist to try to deceive Christians, along with the rest of the world, into worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and a speaking image of the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). For what the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could do is have scientists fashion small (what they could call) "spiritual reality" devices, like the size of a Bluetooth earpiece, that could be easily worn on the head at all times, and that could generate magnetic fields right over the part of the brain which gives people a similar sense of spiritual assurance of truth which the Holy Spirit gives to Christians (John 16:13). And these devices could be remotely activated on people's heads by cell phone signals whenever the Antichrist or the False Prophet are speaking to the world their false doctrines, so that the people of the world will get an overwhelming sense that what the Antichrist and False Prophet are saying is the absolute truth.
Or, if most of the world will have no need of such devices because of the False Prophet's amazing, deceiving miracles (Revelation 13:13-14a, Revelation 19:20), and because of the "strong delusion" sent by God upon unrepentant people (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), then the use of the devices could be focused on Christians, and any other people, who refuse to follow the Antichrist. Such Christians could be arrested and placed in "re-education camps" where they will be strapped into chairs and forced to watch long speeches by the Antichrist and the False Prophet while the devices are active on the Christians' heads, with the hope that eventually the Christians will come to accept the Antichrist, based on the "good spiritual feelings" which they will get (from the devices) while listening to the speeches.
It is vital that Christians never base any of their doctrinal beliefs only on spiritual feelings (cf. Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). All doctrines must be checked against what God's Word the Bible teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16). For "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b).
razzelflabben said in post 432:
If 2 is true, then the church needs to start teaching that belief is of the heart not the mind and comes with a high cost not some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth beyond imagination.
Regarding "some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth", Job should instead be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). For just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all of his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).
Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, because he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians will not be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).
God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job did not love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) and to physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Luke 23:43, Revelation 6:9-10), which is far better than remaining in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23).
Christians must not love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).
1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
razzelflabben said in post 432:
Now some will say that they speak in tongues so they have that assurance . . .
Note that tongues-speaking is one of the signs of initial salvation (Mark 16:17). Also, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the two witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?
Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).
Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).
The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).