To those who don't believe in eternal security...

razzelflabben

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I told you exactly what I was upset about. You don't like the answer so you are trying to make it about theology.

That's really sad. On a Christian Forum.
you said you were upset about me warning everyone including myself that it is easy to get off topic and that we need to be careful not to fall prey to that...to which you accused me of some nasty stuff including but not limited to me being condescending to pointing out to everyone, including myself that we need to make sure we don't get off topic...which is no reason at all to be upset nor to flame me with such false accusations. Since that is true, there must be another reason for your anger and hostility and so, I'm guessing at what it could be. It seems like this has been building in your posts since you were challenged and so that would be a logical conclusion. See, it's all very logical and above board and even Loving on this side of the computer, I didn't flame you, falsely accuse you of anything, attack your "christian behavior" etc. as you have done me, all of which is against forum rules and all because according to you I warned everyone including myself to not get drug into a rabbit trail that was off topic.
 
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razzelflabben said in post 417:

Heb. 10:5-10 and Romans 8:2...we are set free from sin and death.

Amen.

Regarding Hebrews 10:10, it, like Hebrews 10:14, means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus' body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected believers. But the perfect tense does not (as is sometimes claimed by OSAS) denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this does not mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, washed believers (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 does not (as is sometimes claimed by OSAS) denote a permanent perfection, but means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing and eternal process by which believers are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin that they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).

razzelflabben said in post 417:

So, second part of the question asked, what are we saved to?

Eternal life (John 3:16).
 
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razzelflabben

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Before anyone goes off on me and twists what I am about to say into something I didn't say...I know this is not what OSAS teaches, rather it is a pitfall of the teaching that we can do anything we want and still not loss our salvation....in fact, as some here have pointed out, it is rewards that are lost, they just can't or refuse to tell us what those rewards are as per the that specify they are talking about salvation.

Anyway, here is an interesting passage that came up in my study today....Titus 1:13-17...
15 To the pure, everything is pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; in fact, both their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.

Point being that no matter what side of the issue one takes with eternal security questions, what should bring us together is the command/teaching/need to be pure, undefiled, cleansed, living in and yielded to the work of the indwelling HS. IOW's it's way to easy to get carried away by our disagreements and try to accuse one another falsely because of them when at the end of the day, it is our agreements that should bring us together in brotherly love.
 
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razzelflabben said in post 424:

Point being that no matter what side of the issue one takes with eternal security questions, what should bring us together is the command/teaching/need to be pure, undefiled, cleansed, living in and yielded to the work of the indwelling HS.

Amen.

And this brought to mind how, with regard to repenting from a sin (e.g. Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), this means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for believers not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, believers nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and his gospel are not saved. What they need to do is repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

Satan wants believers to fail to continue to come to Jesus, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

-

Also, the ability of believers (although not their choosing) to repent from and to confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

-

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as 7 volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you drive, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.
 
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razzelflabben

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Amen.

And this brought to mind how, with regard to repenting from a sin (e.g. Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), this means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for believers not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, believers nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and his gospel are not saved. What they need to do is repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

Satan wants believers to fail to continue to come to Jesus, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

-

Also, the ability of believers (although not their choosing) to repent from and to confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

-

One great way to read the whole Bible, over and over, is to think of it as 7 volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy
2. Joshua to Esther
3. Job to Song of Solomon
4. Isaiah to Malachi
5. Matthew to Acts
6. Romans to Philemon
7. Hebrews to Revelation

You can read a chapter in each volume every day. This will keep you current in every part of the Bible. After a while, there will not be any part that you have not read recently enough to remember what it teaches. When you reach the end of a volume, simply start again at the first chapter of that volume. In this way, you will be cycling through smaller volumes like #6 and #7 much more often than larger volumes like #2, but the smaller volumes are so much more dense with doctrine that it is profitable to read them over and over more often.

Also, you can listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud whenever you need to keep your eyes on something else while you listen (such as keeping your eyes on the road while you drive, or on a cutting board while you are preparing food, or on your clippers while you are trimming a hedge). In this way, you can listen to the Bible throughout the day, whenever you don't need to be thinking about something else (such as at your workplace or school). Also, you can listen to the Bible even while you are going to sleep, so that it will become part of even your subconscious mind.
in my studies, I have found that study of the word, not just reading it, memorizing the word and meditating on it are all part of our cleansing. In addition we need to stay in prayer and diligent and aware of Satan's schemes so we can avoid falling into his traps. Few of us today have the kind of discipline to do any of these things much less all of them.
 
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razzelflabben said in post 426:

I have found that study of the word, not just reading it, memorizing the word and meditating on it are all part of our cleansing.

Amen.

And the best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it (Matthew 4:4) over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.

razzelflabben said in post 426:

I have found that study of the word, not just reading it, memorizing the word and meditating on it are all part of our cleansing.

Regarding "our cleansing", that brought to mind:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

razzelflabben said in post 426:

In addition we need to stay in prayer and diligent and aware of Satan's schemes so we can avoid falling into his traps.

That's right.

And regarding prayer, when one of Jesus' disciples asked him how to pray, he told all of his disciples to pray what Christians call the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:1-4, Matthew 6:9-13). So Christians should pray the Lord's prayer, every day, and learn to concentrate on everything that it says. It is the perfect model prayer, from which any further, more specific prayers can follow. And there is no need to get long-winded or repetitive (Matthew 6:7-13, Ecclesiastes 5:2). It is better to pray a short prayer with faith than a long prayer with doubting (James 1:6-8).

Also, in order for Christians' prayers to be heard, and answered, they must not "ask amiss, that they may consume it upon their lusts" (James 4:3). Before Christians pray, they must make sure that they have repented from all of their sins (Hebrews 10:26-29), and that they have done all that they can to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, Romans 12:18, Acts 24:16, Hebrews 12:14). And they must make sure that they have completely forgiven everyone who has ever wronged them (Matthew 6:15). And when they pray for something, they must pray for it with an unwavering faith (James 1:6-8), and an unwavering perseverance (Luke 18:1-8). And they must actually be obeying God in their lives (1 John 3:22). And what they ask for must be according to God's will (1 John 5:14). They must be willing to put aside their own will, and seek God's will in all things (Luke 22:42, Matthew 6:10; 2 Corinthians 12:8-10, Deuteronomy 3:25-26). For only he knows what is truly best in the long run (Isaiah 46:10, James 4:14).

Also, Christians should give thanks (Philippians 4:6-7). And they should pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalms 122:6). And they should pray for all those in authority (1 Timothy 2:2). And they should pray that the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers into his harvest (Matthew 9:38). Christians should also pray that they might be accounted worthy to escape the future tribulation (Luke 21:36), and that their flight (from the future Antichrist) will not be in the winter (Mark 13:18). And Christians who have received the gift of tongues should pray for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:13).

razzelflabben said in post 426:

In addition we need to stay in prayer and diligent and aware of Satan's schemes so we can avoid falling into his traps.

Regarding being aware of Satan's schemes, that brought to mind:

2 Corinthians 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

It also brought to mind:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ . . .

This means that our spiritual warfare against Satan and his fallen angels and demons can involve even our own thoughts.

For example, Satan can feed lies into our own minds. And he also often feeds just images into our minds rather than lies expressed in words. For example, if he wants to tempt us to commit a sinful act, instead of whispering into our minds the words "Do that act; won't it feel good to do that act", he will often just place an image of the sinful act in our minds and then sit back and see how we react to it. If we hold onto the sinful image, which is an idol (1 John 5:21), and have desire for it, and let it begin to inspire our own lust within us, then Satan does not have to do anything else: Our own lust will then entice us into committing the sinful act (James 1:14-15).

But if we immediately cast down the sinful image, the idol, in our imagination, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), then we immediately cut off Satan's power of temptation at its root, which is images, idolatry. We must not give ourselves any time to gaze upon his images, his idols, and then desire them, until we become driven by our own lust to act them out.

But someone could say, "Yeah, right. Easier said then done. You have no idea of the power of the sinful images which Satan and his demons feed into my mind. It is a constant, continual barrage until I give in. If I try to fight it, I can't do anything else: It takes all of my mental power just trying to beat down the sinful images in my mind, and the constant craving for the sinful act which they engender within me. My trying to fight back against the temptation just wears me out. I eventually become totally helpless before it. It always wins in the end. I am like its slave. It cracks the whip and I obey. Every. Single. Time".

If this is the case with someone, then they truly are a slave to their sin. They must remember these words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

When we are barraged with temptation, we need to think: "Free. I am free. Jesus has made me free". And we need to pray: "Lord Jesus, free me from this sin, this idolatry, this temptation, this lust, these sinful images in my mind, that I may no longer be a slave to sin". And Jesus can then free us from them. They can cease. The struggle can melt away. And we can then serve him by performing some righteous act instead of the sin (Romans 6:18).

So we can only win against Satan and his demons if we take constant control of our sinful thoughts and bring them all immediately to Jesus (2 Corinthians 10:5), and bring Jesus into all of our thoughts (Psalms 10:4, KJV). He can then set us free from our sinful thoughts (John 8:34-36) and strengthen our righteous thoughts (Romans 6:18). He is the only one who can save us from our sins (1 John 3:5-10).
 
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razzelflabben

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Amen.

And the best way to study the Bible, as a whole, is simply to read every word of it (Matthew 4:4) over and over again. It ends up explaining itself once what it teaches has become engrained in your memory, and you see the connections between verses regarding something in one place in the Bible and other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible. It is by comparing and combining related verses in different places in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

It is also a good practice to always start and end each reading session with a prayer for understanding and remembrance of the whole Bible.



Regarding "our cleansing", that brought to mind:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



That's right.

And regarding prayer, when one of Jesus' disciples asked him how to pray, he told all of his disciples to pray what Christians call the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:1-4, Matthew 6:9-13). So Christians should pray the Lord's prayer, every day, and learn to concentrate on everything that it says. It is the perfect model prayer, from which any further, more specific prayers can follow. And there is no need to get long-winded or repetitive (Matthew 6:7-13, Ecclesiastes 5:2). It is better to pray a short prayer with faith than a long prayer with doubting (James 1:6-8).

Also, in order for Christians' prayers to be heard, and answered, they must not "ask amiss, that they may consume it upon their lusts" (James 4:3). Before Christians pray, they must make sure that they have repented from all of their sins (Hebrews 10:26-29), and that they have done all that they can to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, Romans 12:18, Acts 24:16, Hebrews 12:14). And they must make sure that they have completely forgiven everyone who has ever wronged them (Matthew 6:15). And when they pray for something, they must pray for it with an unwavering faith (James 1:6-8), and an unwavering perseverance (Luke 18:1-8). And they must actually be obeying God in their lives (1 John 3:22). And what they ask for must be according to God's will (1 John 5:14). They must be willing to put aside their own will, and seek God's will in all things (Luke 22:42, Matthew 6:10; 2 Corinthians 12:8-10, Deuteronomy 3:25-26). For only he knows what is truly best in the long run (Isaiah 46:10, James 4:14).

Also, Christians should give thanks (Philippians 4:6-7). And they should pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalms 122:6). And they should pray for all those in authority (1 Timothy 2:2). And they should pray that the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers into his harvest (Matthew 9:38). Christians should also pray that they might be accounted worthy to escape the future tribulation (Luke 21:36), and that their flight (from the future Antichrist) will not be in the winter (Mark 13:18). And Christians who have received the gift of tongues should pray for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:13).



Regarding being aware of Satan's schemes, that brought to mind:

2 Corinthians 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

It also brought to mind:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ . . .

This means that our spiritual warfare against Satan and his fallen angels and demons can involve even our own thoughts.

For example, Satan can feed lies into our own minds. And he also often feeds just images into our minds rather than lies expressed in words. For example, if he wants to tempt us to commit a sinful act, instead of whispering into our minds the words "Do that act; won't it feel good to do that act", he will often just place an image of the sinful act in our minds and then sit back and see how we react to it. If we hold onto the sinful image, which is an idol (1 John 5:21), and have desire for it, and let it begin to inspire our own lust within us, then Satan does not have to do anything else: Our own lust will then entice us into committing the sinful act (James 1:14-15).

But if we immediately cast down the sinful image, the idol, in our imagination, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), then we immediately cut off Satan's power of temptation at its root, which is images, idolatry. We must not give ourselves any time to gaze upon his images, his idols, and then desire them, until we become driven by our own lust to act them out.

But someone could say, "Yeah, right. Easier said then done. You have no idea of the power of the sinful images which Satan and his demons feed into my mind. It is a constant, continual barrage until I give in. If I try to fight it, I can't do anything else: It takes all of my mental power just trying to beat down the sinful images in my mind, and the constant craving for the sinful act which they engender within me. My trying to fight back against the temptation just wears me out. I eventually become totally helpless before it. It always wins in the end. I am like its slave. It cracks the whip and I obey. Every. Single. Time".

If this is the case with someone, then they truly are a slave to their sin. They must remember these words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

When we are barraged with temptation, we need to think: "Free. I am free. Jesus has made me free". And we need to pray: "Lord Jesus, free me from this sin, this idolatry, this temptation, this lust, these sinful images in my mind, that I may no longer be a slave to sin". And Jesus can then free us from them. They can cease. The struggle can melt away. And we can then serve him by performing some righteous act instead of the sin (Romans 6:18).

So we can only win against Satan and his demons if we take constant control of our sinful thoughts and bring them all immediately to Jesus (2 Corinthians 10:5), and bring Jesus into all of our thoughts (Psalms 10:4, KJV). He can then set us free from our sinful thoughts (John 8:34-36) and strengthen our righteous thoughts (Romans 6:18). He is the only one who can save us from our sins (1 John 3:5-10).
It's interesting that you bring all these things up, they are things I have either recently studied in depth or are working on right now. For example, right now I am studying the power of Love....In that power of Love is the power to be delivered from the Evil one...which leads into all the ways Satan tries to draw us away from God. It's a fascinating study to say the least but also somewhat off topic.
 
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razzelflabben said in post 428:

In that power of Love is the power to be delivered from the Evil one...which leads into all the ways Satan tries to draw us away from God.

Amen.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1 John 4:17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

OSAS may try to point to 1 John 4:18 as proof that true Christians will have no fear of losing their salvation. But it is only if saved people perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to ultimately cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).
 
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razzelflabben

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Amen.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1 John 4:17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

OSAS may try to point to 1 John 4:18 as proof that true Christians will have no fear of losing their salvation.
here is salt in the wound so to speak when it comes to OSAS theology. Even in non OSAS theology that is taken straight from the word of God without the manipulation of teachers previously, we have an absolute assurance of our salvation. I mentioned previously that when our son died, we took great comfort in Romans 8:38-39...we did so because nothing, not even death could separate our son from His God. What an amazing comfort that is. In fact, our only fear should be our own willingness or another way to say the same thing, our own pride that can separate us. If we do not allow this warning to infiltrate our thinking and our lives, we risk falling away. We risk allowing our pride to keep us from the Love that brought salvation in the first place.

Quick story...some years ago, God called me to full time study of Biblical Love...could talk about it for days without stopping but what I want to bring up here in relation to the topic at hand involves the best definition we can come up with for Love...Love is putting another above yourself in an act of humility, creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration...now, notice in that definition that the core or root of Love is humility. (can post multiple passages if someone wants) Love comes from God but the thing that marks Love as Love and not simply compassion or worldly love is Humility....IOW's until we remove our pride, a pride that keeps us from obedience, yielding to the HS, living out our salvation on a daily basis, we can NOT Love which is the very mark of the true believer.

Now I know this leaves room for the osas er to make excuses that the one falling away is not a true believer, (I do try to understand both sides) but that has nothing at all to do with the point I am making and is an inconsistent thought with the totality of scripture. What is a consistent thought is that we are called to live in humility, Love, obedience and if we started teaching this, there wouldn't really be a need to OSAS theology at all. This is at least in part where I think the NoN OSAS er has it right. The emphasis is rarely on issues like what can we do to loss our salvation and primarily on always growing closer to the image of our Lord and King. That being said, it is not a hard and fast rule that churches teach this growing at all but rather to say that by the very nature of the teaching, non OSAS teacher relies on that growing and maturing and humbling of self whereas the OSAS teacher has no such built in agenda. This is for me one of the problematic areas for the OSAS belief.
But it is only if saved people perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to ultimately cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).
I think one of the places the church fails is in teaching fear of the Lord as it is properly taught in scripture. In fact, some time ago my study took me to Psalms 34...notice what verse 11 says...come and I will teach you to fear the Lord. When I discovered this passage I was talking about it to my husband who promptly prepared a sermon on the fear of the Lord and my brother who did the same. It is something that is seldom taught and when it is, is taught poorly. May we all learn to fear the Lord
 
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razzelflabben said in post 430:

...now, notice in that definition that the core or root of Love is humility.

It is definitely an integral part of love, for:

1 Corinthians 13:4 ¶Love [agape] suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8a ¶Love never faileth . . .

razzelflabben said in post 430:

. . . Love which is the very mark of the true believer.

Amen. For:

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

razzelflabben said in post 430:

I think one of the places the church fails is in teaching fear of the Lord as it is properly taught in scripture.

Good point.

For scripture commands Christians to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of believers by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) at his 2nd coming, when some believers will end up losing their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God, for Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and that it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Some believers mistakenly think that they should not have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 2 Timothy 1:7. But when 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given believers the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (deilia: G1167) means "timidity", and the context means that a believer is not to be timid before men (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8) or afraid of suffering affliction from men for preaching the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given believers the spirit of the fear of men (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given believers the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But believers can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God. For:

Romans 11:20b . . . thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
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razzelflabben

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amen...I also think that for some...notice I said some osas ers their theology comes out of a fear plain and simple. Consider what scripture tells us about our assurance of salvation...Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22...if one does not see the evidence of the HS as God says there will be, there are three options 1. God is a liar which most will not accept, myself included 2. I am not saved and therefore the easy believism that is taught in the church is somehow flawed or 3. I am beyond being saved, which again most disagree with.

If 1 is true, then there is no God and salvation would then be a moot point.

If 2 is true, then the church needs to start teaching that belief is of the heart not the mind and comes with a high cost not some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth beyond imagination.

If 3 is true, then scripture is wrong and again there is no reason to worry.

I have pointed out the above scriptures multiple times here and other places and only one or two people even acknowledge that we can know or have tangible assurance of our salvation as scripture tells us we can. Most just pretend it isn't there and go on some tangent about forgiveness and just trusting God and so forth and so on which testifies to me that they have never experienced the evidence of the HS in their lives as per God's promises above. Now some will say that they speak in tongues so they have that assurance, but what does scripture say that assurance looks like? Well, we start in Galatians 5:22-23 and Matthew 7:16; Romans 5:1; Romans 8:5; Romans 14:17; Ephesians 5:9 IOW's the shorthand version is that we cease in the power of God to sin and experience Love, Joy, and Peace in ever growing abundance. When these things are not happening in our lives then God is not King and we have no guarantee.

See, perfect love casts out all fear...I John 4:18...that means that even our doubts and fears that we could "loss our salvation" are cast away not by rhetoric and manipulation of scripture or iows' the lies we tell ourselves but by the very evidence that we see lived out in every moment of every day of our lives as we learn what it really means to have abundant life starting the moment of our belief with the heart unto salvation.
 
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razzelflabben said in post 432:

Consider what scripture tells us about our assurance of salvation...Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22...

Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, they, like Ephesians 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 5:5, mean that the measure of the Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus' second coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

razzelflabben said in post 432:

...if one does not see the evidence of the HS as God says there will be, there are three options 1. God is a liar which most will not accept, myself included 2. I am not saved and therefore the easy believism that is taught in the church is somehow flawed or 3. I am beyond being saved, which again most disagree with.

If 1 is true, then there is no God and salvation would then be a moot point.

If 2 is true, then the church needs to start teaching that belief is of the heart not the mind . . .

Regarding "belief is of the heart not the mind", note that Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must be also a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to correct (i.e. Biblical) doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, in order for people to be saved, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the correct doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

-

Also, it has been claimed that magnetic fields applied to certain areas of the brain can cause a subject who is alone in a room to sense other human-shaped entities in the room. Materialists could explain this as a magnetically-induced spatial displacement of the subject's mental image of his own body. This might be correct. Or in some cases it could involve a magnetically-induced enhancement of the subject's brain so that he can sense spiritual entities, whether a spatially displaced sense of his own spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), or a spatially correct sense of an external spiritual entity such as a guardian angel (cf. Acts 12:15b), a fallen angel (Ephesians 6:12), a demon (Mark 5:8), or a ghost (Luke 24:37).

So it is possible that sometime in the future, scientists could magnetically induce something like believers' experience of the Holy Spirit, if by employing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), scientists are able to find the part of believers' brains which is most active when they are sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to worship music and worshipping God), and which shows little to no activity when they are not sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to a sports talk show). If there is such a part of the brain, scientists could then apply magnetic fields to it while Christian subjects are not sensing the Holy Spirit, and then see if it induces something like a sense of the Holy Spirit in them without any other external stimuli.

If scientists manage to do this, it could be employed by the future Antichrist to try to deceive Christians, along with the rest of the world, into worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and a speaking image of the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). For what the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could do is have scientists fashion small (what they could call) "spiritual reality" devices, like the size of a Bluetooth earpiece, that could be easily worn on the head at all times, and that could generate magnetic fields right over the part of the brain which gives people a similar sense of spiritual assurance of truth which the Holy Spirit gives to Christians (John 16:13). And these devices could be remotely activated on people's heads by cell phone signals whenever the Antichrist or the False Prophet are speaking to the world their false doctrines, so that the people of the world will get an overwhelming sense that what the Antichrist and False Prophet are saying is the absolute truth.

Or, if most of the world will have no need of such devices because of the False Prophet's amazing, deceiving miracles (Revelation 13:13-14a, Revelation 19:20), and because of the "strong delusion" sent by God upon unrepentant people (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), then the use of the devices could be focused on Christians, and any other people, who refuse to follow the Antichrist. Such Christians could be arrested and placed in "re-education camps" where they will be strapped into chairs and forced to watch long speeches by the Antichrist and the False Prophet while the devices are active on the Christians' heads, with the hope that eventually the Christians will come to accept the Antichrist, based on the "good spiritual feelings" which they will get (from the devices) while listening to the speeches.

It is vital that Christians never base any of their doctrinal beliefs only on spiritual feelings (cf. Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). All doctrines must be checked against what God's Word the Bible teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16). For "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b).

razzelflabben said in post 432:

If 2 is true, then the church needs to start teaching that belief is of the heart not the mind and comes with a high cost not some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth beyond imagination.

Regarding "some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth", Job should instead be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). For just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all of his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, because he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians will not be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job did not love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) and to physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Luke 23:43, Revelation 6:9-10), which is far better than remaining in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23).

Christians must not love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

razzelflabben said in post 432:

Now some will say that they speak in tongues so they have that assurance . . .

Note that tongues-speaking is one of the signs of initial salvation (Mark 16:17). Also, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the two witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).
 
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razzelflabben

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Regarding Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, they, like Ephesians 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 5:5, mean that the measure of the Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus' second coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
the HS is our assurance which was the point. If one does not have that assurance, it is easy to see how they would want to turn to teachings about eternal security for comfort. That was the point.
Regarding "belief is of the heart not the mind", note that Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must be also a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to correct (i.e. Biblical) doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9) and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, in order for people to be saved, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the correct doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).
from a biblical standpoint belief of the heart is way more than emotions. In fact, in scripture the heart is both emotional, determination, and full of thoughts, think of it as the whole man. IOW's belief unto salvation is much much more than emotion or mental assent, it is a consuming, burning, determination to follow no matter the emotions, no matter the thought, no matter the experiences I face.
-

Also, it has been claimed that magnetic fields applied to certain areas of the brain can cause a subject who is alone in a room to sense other human-shaped entities in the room. Materialists could explain this as a magnetically-induced spatial displacement of the subject's mental image of his own body. This might be correct. Or in some cases it could involve a magnetically-induced enhancement of the subject's brain so that he can sense spiritual entities, whether a spatially displaced sense of his own spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), or a spatially correct sense of an external spiritual entity such as a guardian angel (cf. Acts 12:15b), a fallen angel (Ephesians 6:12), a demon (Mark 5:8), or a ghost (Luke 24:37).

So it is possible that sometime in the future, scientists could magnetically induce something like believers' experience of the Holy Spirit, if by employing functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), scientists are able to find the part of believers' brains which is most active when they are sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to worship music and worshipping God), and which shows little to no activity when they are not sensing the Holy Spirit (e.g. while they are listening to a sports talk show). If there is such a part of the brain, scientists could then apply magnetic fields to it while Christian subjects are not sensing the Holy Spirit, and then see if it induces something like a sense of the Holy Spirit in them without any other external stimuli.
don't you see, that is the point of my post. The HS is more than an emotion, He works in us and through us and if we don't see that working, then there is no assurance of salvation. Let's put this a different way...if all I ever see of God's work in my life is some warm fuzzy feeling when I worship, I have NO guarantee that I am saved. My guarentee is in the work of the HS not the emotional response of that Spirit. As such any person who does NOT have that working assurance evidenced in their lives will be automatically drawn to OSAS theology because of the comfort it offers. The problem is that I find no reason to believe OSAS theology because it requires that we dismiss passages that God put in the scriptures for us to know His heart and will. Just because OSAS theology is comforting to those who do NOT evidence the working of the HS does NOT make it a right theology, that is the point.
If scientists manage to do this, it could be employed by the future Antichrist to try to deceive Christians, along with the rest of the world, into worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and a speaking image of the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). For what the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could do is have scientists fashion small (what they could call) "spiritual reality" devices, like the size of a Bluetooth earpiece, that could be easily worn on the head at all times, and that could generate magnetic fields right over the part of the brain which gives people a similar sense of spiritual assurance of truth which the Holy Spirit gives to Christians (John 16:13). And these devices could be remotely activated on people's heads by cell phone signals whenever the Antichrist or the False Prophet are speaking to the world their false doctrines, so that the people of the world will get an overwhelming sense that what the Antichrist and False Prophet are saying is the absolute truth.
that would be true if the evidence of the HS was emotion but as I showed in my post that is NOT what scripture says the work of the HS is. Rather scripture tells us as I pointed out that there is a measurable, difference when the HS is at work....which was the point of my post. Did you miss the point?
Or, if most of the world will have no need of such devices because of the False Prophet's amazing, deceiving miracles (Revelation 13:13-14a, Revelation 19:20), and because of the "strong delusion" sent by God upon unrepentant people (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12), then the use of the devices could be focused on Christians, and any other people, who refuse to follow the Antichrist. Such Christians could be arrested and placed in "re-education camps" where they will be strapped into chairs and forced to watch long speeches by the Antichrist and the False Prophet while the devices are active on the Christians' heads, with the hope that eventually the Christians will come to accept the Antichrist, based on the "good spiritual feelings" which they will get (from the devices) while listening to the speeches.

It is vital that Christians never base any of their doctrinal beliefs only on spiritual feelings (cf. Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12). All doctrines must be checked against what God's Word the Bible teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16). For "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31b).
I find it difficult sometimes to follow what you are saying because it seems you are just repeating what I said in a long drawn out monologe.
Regarding "some pie in the sky promises of health and wealth", Job should instead be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). For just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all of his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, because he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians will not be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job did not love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) and to physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Luke 23:43, Revelation 6:9-10), which is far better than remaining in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23).

Christians must not love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
let me take a wild guess...you believe that you are gifted and called to teach/preach to everyone...right?
Note that tongues-speaking is one of the signs of initial salvation (Mark 16:17). Also, the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the two witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).
how did you turn that into some long monolog about spiritual gifts? No one was questioning spiritual gifts in that post...in fact, to discuss such is off topic.
 
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