A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

Smidlee · Dec 3, 2016

JackRT said:
“There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation” the American Psychiatric Association has officially stated. "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who helped start Exodus in 1976 and worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later. "The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

This is completely ignore the fact that the mind effect on our desires and actions.

Smidlee · Dec 3, 2016

dp...

Monk Brendan · Dec 3, 2016

Smidlee said:
Says who? You often reap what you sow. I seriously doubt someone start out in life as a child molester, dictator ,etc but the choices we make can lead us into paths and desires we never thought we would have. Sin (like cancer) always starts out very small.

STOP! Child molester, dictator, etc. are all sins. I am saying that the homosexual deserves the same CIVIL RIGHTS as the saint who has lived in celibacy and chastity all his/her life. As well as the murderer, thief, rapist, etc.

Smidlee · Dec 3, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
STOP! Child molester, dictator, etc. are all sins. I am saying that the homosexual deserves the same CIVIL RIGHTS as the saint who has lived in celibacy and chastity all his/her life. As well as the murderer, thief, rapist, etc.

Guess what so is homosexuality a sin.

com7fy8 · Dec 3, 2016

Smidlee said:
is homosexuality a sin.

Jesus cares about us; so Jesus suffered and died like He did, on Calvary, so we can be delivered from the slavery of sin and Satan and his "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Satan's evil spirit has ways and passions which won't take no for an answer. This is why people can not change from their sinning; their preferences of sin are emotionally dominating and dictatorial for pleasures and possessing ones they can use. So, in case a person is stuck in some evil preference and desire, only God is able to truly deliver us from any sin problem.

In Romans 1:18-31, we can read what our Apostle Paul says happened to people because they refused God >

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." (specifically Romans 1:26-27)

So, it is a punishment to be controlled by passions witch keep a man from being able to tenderly share with a lady in an intimate relationship of holy matrimony. If ones refuse God, it is possible that He will allow them to become taken over by dominating and dictatorial drives for ones of the same gender. And using someone for pleasure is not loving the person. Love does not have us only using anyone, I have learned.

"For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret." (Ephesians 5:12)

So, it also is wrong to keep speaking of shameful things, in order to promote acceptance of it. And in us our hearts need to be thinking and speaking in us of God's things >

"Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth." (Colossians 3:2)

So, it is wrong to have wrong interests and desires and preferences, but our minds need to be on all that is so good, with our Heavenly Father and Jesus our Groom.

So, we need to have hope for people who are refusing God and whom He has given over to the living punishment of their dominating and dictatorial drives. We should not discriminate by saying certain people are excused to keep in on their slavery of sin, while other people need forgiveness and deliverance and correction.

truefiction1 · Dec 3, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
Let's be real. Sin is sin. It is not sickness, it is rebellion against God's will. If you feel that guilt has nothing to do with such rebellion, then it is time to re-think that feeling. And yes, I am thinking about myself, and my sins.

We wouldn't say that guilt has nothing to do with sin. But sin is a sickness, and God desires not the death of us sinners (resulting from our illness), but rather that we should turn to Him (for His healing of our sinful nature) and Live. Thus, we would not approve of the passing of civil laws discouraging any of God's servants from turning to God for healing.

SilverBear · Dec 3, 2016

Smidlee said:
I know personally this is false. What you choice to dwell on will have a huge effect on one's desires.

Homosexuals choose to be honest, to be who they are, to stand up to prejudice and to threats. That is the choice they make.

Whitworth · Dec 3, 2016

Do I believe in same sex marriage? NO

I do however believe in same sex civil partnership.

What angers me is Christian churches conducting same sex marriages, this happened in a Church local to me. In honesty I don't know why anyone would want to marry in a Christian church with a Christian ceremony when the Bible clearly states that you should not lie with someone of the same gender and that marriage is between and man and woman Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:4-5.

Civil partnership on the other hand is mainly a political issue, it ties in to laws, regulations and entitlements for same sex partners. I strongly believe in the separation of Church and State and I believe God gave people FREE WILL to decide what is best for them and as a result live with the consequences.

This is why I'll never force my beliefs don't someone's throat. I remain true to what I believe and if asked I will be honest but it's not my place to condemn others, their life is between them and God and every gay couple and their uncle know what Christian thoughts/beliefs and Biblical teaching on the issue is, so they don't need me to enlighten them. Plus Jesus was a friend to the sinners so I'd never show anything but love to anyone regardless of their sexual orientation (or at least I try to be a good, kind, caring and loving person)

I really do not believe the Church should compromise our stance, beliefs and teachings on the subject though.

So to be clear I believe there's a huge difference between a Christian Marriage and Civil Partnership I only condone the latter.

Do I agree with same sex relationships? No, but I also don't agree with liars, thief's, idolater's, lustful people etc but I myself am some of those things and probably one of the worst Christians ever. I don't put one sin over another, sin is sin and we're all in need of forgiveness and redemption. I will always state any sin is wrong not because I'm perfect but because I know God's law, I stand guilty of committing just about every sin and I need the grace of God more than anyone. This is why I will show love and compassion to anyone regardless of their background.

I hope that helps clear my opinion on the topic at least, I know it was a little all over the place, sorry about that!

JackRT · Dec 3, 2016

SilverBear said:
Homosexuals choose to be honest, to be who they are, to stand up to prejudice and to threats. That is the choice they make.

Well said!

SilverBear · Dec 3, 2016

Whitworth said:
Do I believe in same sex marriage? NO

I do however believe in same sex civil partnership.

What angers me is Christian churches conducting same sex marriages, this happened in a Church local to me. In honesty I don't know why anyone would want to marry in a Christian church with a Christian ceremony when the Bible clearly states that you should not lie with someone of the same gender and that marriage is between and man and woman Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:4-5.

In the same vein, one could ask Given passages like Leviticus 16-25 why the handicapped would want to marry in a Christian church.

Click to expand...

Smidlee · Dec 4, 2016

SilverBear said:
Homosexuals choose to be honest, to be who they are, to stand up to prejudice and to threats. That is the choice they make.

I know of someone is honest enough to say he cheated on his wife and he's not a Christian. But he's not proud he cheated on his wife yet he see the homosexuals bragging about the sin and expect everyone else to accept their sin.
Homosexuals are lying when they claim they are not responsible for their actions. They are lying when they claim you have no choice on who you can love. Often with love feeling follows action and not the other way around.

JackRT · Dec 4, 2016

In my reading, the Bible part of the debate focuses on 7 key claims:

(1) The Levitiicus texts (18:22; 20:13) deal with cultic prostitution (see Deuteronomy 23:18; Judges 19:22), not modern homosexuality, and are in any case part of the Law that Christ's death brought to an end (Romans 10:4).

(2) The Sodom text (Genesis 19:5) deals not with homosexuality, but xenophobic humiliation. Same-sex sexual humiliation was a common means for ancient heterosexual warriors to humiliate the vanquished. Sodom's sin is never understood as homosexuality in the Judaism of late antiquity.

(3) The relevant Greek terms in 1 Corinthians 6;9 seem best taken as a reference to pederasty, a common practice of heterosexual slaveowners in ancient Greek culture. 6:11 seems to imply that Paul welcomed such abusers in the Corinthian house churches in the hope that the Holy Spirit would convict them and prompt them to abandon this sin.

(4) Romans 1:26-27 is the only biblical text to address lesbianism. The key issue here is the meaning of "against nature." We must remember that in late antiquity no one knew about the concept of genetic make-up. Thus, the Stoics considered potted plants and banquets after midnight as "unnatural" in the same way as same-sex sexual acts. So "against nature" seems to mean "against the best instincts of contemporary culture."

(5) It is often wrongly claimed that Jesus never alludes to the homosexuality issue. But the expression "eunuchs from birth" (Matthew 19:12) is taken by ancient rabbinic Judaism and one of the first Christian theologians (Clement of Alexandria--180 AD) as a reference to men who have never been sexually attracted to women. This would presumably include gays, but it is important to recognize that in the ancient Mediterranean world there is no articulated concept of sexual orientation. The same-sex sexual acts condemned in Scripture are always presumed to derive from the lust of heterosexual perversion.

(6) The Bible speaks with approval of a case where one man loves another more than he does any woman: : [David:] "O how much I loved you [Jonathan] ! Your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women (2 Samuel 1:26)."

(7) In short, the Bible never considers the question of sex orientation or the possibility of two men who are social equals genuinely loving each other in a same-sex sexual relationship. So the inclusivist camp claims that the situation of the modern mature gay persons is not addressed in Scripture. The conservative will assume that had biblical writers been asked about the situation of modern gays, they would have insisted that sex be reserved for heterosexual marriage.

What I hope we can at least agree on is this: if fornication (sex motivated solely by lust) is a sin for straights, then surely it is a sin for gays as well. Beyond this, one's perspective on gay sexuality will depend on the network of assumptions that is brought to these biblical texts.

com7fy8 · Dec 4, 2016

truefiction1 said:
His healing or our sinful nature

The Bible does say that Jesus is our Great Physician. And James 5:16 says,

"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

I understand that "healed", here, means healed of whatever in our character makes us able to sin and weak enough to then suffer different emotional problems and personality torments. And we are healed more together with God in His love and leading, instead, and how He has us loving any and all people, instead of self-destructing in trying to just use people for what we want.

So, yes we can be "healed" of any sin problem and evil in us.

So, why would gays want to be excused from this? Why would people discriminate against gays, by claiming that gays can not be healed of sinful things the same as any of us can?

One reason may be because of how ones have failed to change their own selves from being gay, and so they claim it can't be done; plus, certain supposedly Christian methods have failed to change people out of being gay. But with God it is easily possible to be changed out of any sin problem. His grace is almighty to effect and cure our nature with His own love. And our Apostle Paul says,

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

Also >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, why worship and trust in excuses of worldly people who discriminate about who needs the forgiveness of Jesus on the cross? Gays need forgiveness, too, along with all of us. Plus, God's love gets the same result in all of us who are growing as His children, including how His gentle and quiet love makes us pleasing to our Heavenly Father >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, in case we still have commandeering and dictatorial and noisy feelings and preferences and drives for what is wrong, this is wrong - - - not in the gentle and quiet beauty of God's love.

So, by trying to turn gay stuff into some sort of a marriage thing, this can be a way of helping a problem to continue and to exercise in it to get worse (2 Timothy 3:13) in it, instead of getting what they need and which is possible with God.

Monk Brendan · Dec 4, 2016

JackRT said:
(2) The Sodom text (Genesis 19:5) deals not with homosexuality, but xenophobic humiliation. Same-sex sexual humiliation was a common means for ancient heterosexual warriors to humiliate the vanquished. Sodom's sin is never understood as homosexuality in the Judaism of late antiquity.

And it is still practiced today--for instance in the hijacking of TWA flight 847 in June of 1985. I had friends on this plane. One of the was an RC priest who was repeatedly raped and beaten. Another friend, an RC deacon was raped several times, he had a gun put to his head, and when it fired, the chamber was empty--so he was able to walk away.

Monk Brendan · Dec 4, 2016

Whitworth said:
Do I believe in same sex marriage?

I do! I even have a couple of friends that have experienced it.

Never say you don't believe in something just because that certain sin has never tempted you! Rather, if you have God's love in your heart, pray for homosexual couples, not that they immediately repent and move in with women, but that God will bring what faith they have to bloom and grow, and that their relationship will bring each closer to God.

Whitworth · Dec 4, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
I do! I even have a couple of friends that have experienced it.

Never say you don't believe in something just because that certain sin has never tempted you! Rather, if you have God's love in your heart, pray for homosexual couples, not that they immediately repent and move in with women, but that God will bring what faith they have to bloom and grow, and that their relationship will bring each closer to God.

Sorry I should have worded that better. I don't AGREE with it.

I think I made clear from the rest of my post though, that I would never judge and just as Jesus did my love and compassion is not withdrawn from homosexual couples, just if I were ever asked outright about my opinion then I could NEVER stray away from my beliefs or teaching.

An example of this my ex partner is in a lesbian relationship. She attended church with her female partner and the church let them be there and welcomed them with open arms. It's only when they sat down with the pastor and sought his approval that an issue arose. The pastor could obviously not stray from the God's word and laws and said he could not condone their behaviour just as he couldn't condone all other sins.

They decided to leave the church after this.

This is the type of things that anger me. I'd never expect to sit down with a pastor and him to tell me that my infidelity, lustfulness, stealing, lying or any other sinful thing I did was OK. Sure I know I am welcome in Church as Church is for the sinners BUT to ask people to agree with people's sinful lifestyles or somehow condone it is wrong.

Homosexuals seem to want to go to church and seek approval of their lifestyle choice. Here is the thing all sinners can go to Church and be welcome.... I am by no means ANY better than a homosexual, I am a sinner just like them and sin is sin to God. I am no better BUT the difference is I want to stray away from sin and want to get better and want to try and live my life according to God's law and an open and honest pastor who is there to tell me when I am going astray or not living to God's standards helps me with that, sitting listening to the sermons and knowing I am not living to God's standards helps me come to a place or repentance and want to change no matter how many times I fall short.

The thing is MOST (not all) homosexuals come to Church and don't feel what they are doing is wrong and don't want to be told or hear that they are sinners and instead seek the blessing and approval of the church and Christians around them.

Sure Jesus would have still loved, spent time with and spoke to homosexuals if he was around today, after all his time on Earth was spent with the sinners, prostitutes and down and outs in society when he was here BUT even then He still remained true to the word of God and while he FORGAVE sins He still told people to GO AWAY AND SIN NO MORE.

ken777 · Dec 4, 2016

When attempts have been made to reinterpret Scripture to condone homosexual relationships, it is often claimed Jesus did not condemn homosexuality ... and yet He obviously did.

In Luke 17:29 Jesus confirms the story about the destruction of Sodom. His followers understood Sodom was destroyed because of sexual perversion (2 Peter 2:7, Jude 1:7).

In "Homosexuality and the Bible" (an article arguing for accepting homosexual relationships), Walter Wink concludes:

"Where the Bible mentions homosexual behavior at all, it clearly condemns it. I freely grant all that. The issue is precisely whether that Biblical judgment is correct."

SilverBear · Dec 5, 2016

ken777 said:
When attempts have been made to reinterpret Scripture to condone homosexual relationships, it is often claimed Jesus did not condemn homosexuality ... and yet He obviously did.

In Luke 17:29 Jesus confirms the story about the destruction of Sodom. His followers understood Sodom was destroyed because of sexual perversion (2 Peter 2:7, Jude 1:7).

'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” Ezekiel 16:49-50

Detestable things - shiqquts; sheqets; shiqqutsim - idol-worship or objects connected with idolatry

Monk Brendan · Dec 5, 2016

Whitworth said:
Homosexuals seem to want to go to church and seek approval of their lifestyle choice. Here is the thing all sinners can go to Church and be welcome.... I am by no means ANY better than a homosexual, I am a sinner just like them and sin is sin to God. I am no better BUT the difference is I want to stray away from sin and want to get better and want to try and live my life according to God's law and an open and honest pastor who is there to tell me when I am going astray or not living to God's standards helps me with that, sitting listening to the sermons and knowing I am not living to God's standards helps me come to a place or repentance and want to change no matter how many times I fall short.

Again, referring back to the couple I know, The pastor (a Catholic Priest) said that as long as he was pastor, they would be members of the church. Their bishop even gives them the Eucharist! As I have said before, they are considered models of piety in the church.

True, their pastor is an incredible man. True, they are living a celibate life. But that changes nothing.

I know that a lot of churches would not welcome a couple into their fellowship. Many churches would not even allow them into the building. But how can homosexuals know Christ's Love if they are rejected out of hand, beaten up, verbally abused, and told that no matter what they did to clean up their lives they would end up in hell.

Whitworth said:
Homosexuals seem to want to go to church and seek approval of their lifestyle choice.

What choice? Homosexuality is NOT a choice. I don't know about YOU, but I was never given a choice whether I wanted to be gay or straight.

I have so many genetic faults that I chose long ago not to father any children. I was engaged once, but I broke it off when I considered my problems. She was upset, and to be honest, so was I. But as others have said, marriage is about bringing up children--or at least being open to the possibility. I would NOT want to saddle a child with my problems. I abhor divorce, and I would never allow my wife to get an abortion. Hence, I live a celibate life.

Besides, sex is not the be all and end all of a loving relationship. I have many other sins that need the rest of my life to work out. So, I spend the rest of my life praying, repenting, and living in a monastic hermitage, just trying to do what I must to survive.

saris · Dec 5, 2016

I personally do not think the Government should be involved in marriage at all. That is my take.

A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

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