Fr. Ralph Martin - Will Many Be Saved?

St_Barnabus · Dec 3, 2016

Light of the East said:
Wow! You really don't get it, do you?

Both councils - Florence in 1442 and VII in 1961 - meet those requirements. They are infallible, yet they contradict each other.

Explain.

I did, but you didn't "get it." Maybe Ralph Martin will shed more light.

MikeK · Dec 3, 2016

I get where the OP is coming from. From the outside, to the truly impartial schollar, this must look like an impossible quagmire. Those already convinced will balm their consciences as people do and continue to believe their interpretation is correct, but there are gaping holes in both positions that are difficult to reconcile.

St_Barnabus · Dec 3, 2016

Mike, I have been in umpteen threads about this and have studied it thoroughly. My intention was just to fade out here, but since you are always so kind to me, I thought it might be worth another look.

I went to confession today to confess that some of these posts trigger anger and disturb my peace. Father said, why bother? and added a few other words of counsel. St. Faustina stated in several places in her Diary that Our Lord told her to always follow her confessors, for He in fact is speaking to her through them. When I came home, it was no small coincidence that I heard a similar reply from John Martignoni on my tape of this week's EWTN Web of Faith (which will air again this afternoon at 4 PM)

He said that we do not change or convert people, but simply plant the seeds, hoping they will not fall on the footpath or rocky ground. Then pray and leave the job to the Holy Spirit. Good advice!! I digress.

Maybe you already know this, but Pius XII's letter to the Boston Bishops formed the basis for article 16 in V-II's Lumen Gentium, Ch. II,
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." (19*)

The footnote (19*) reads: Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.

Article 848 of the CCC references footnote 337, which gives the very same quote. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

Pius XII intervened when Fr. Feeney was circulating EENS material, and he finally was chastised. It was a well-known controversy that some who adhere to "feeneyism" still fight over, since many do not believe in baptism of desire, etc., even though the Church teaches the possibility, even before V-II.

It is THIS that underlies the teaching of LG, which does not negate Pope Eugene, since he was not addressing pagans who had never heard the gospel, but those who heard it and rejected it. His teaching is true, as is V-II's LG.

MikeK · Dec 3, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
Mike, I have been in umpteen threads about this and have studied it thoroughly. My intention was just to fade out here, but since you are always so kind to me, I thought it might be worth another look.

I went to confession today to confess that some of these posts trigger anger and disturb my peace. Father said, why bother? and added a few other words of counsel. St. Faustina stated in several places in her Diary that Our Lord told her to always follow her confessors, for He in fact is speaking to her through them. When I came home, it was no small coincidence that I heard a similar reply from John Martignoni on my tape of this week's EWTN Web of Faith (which will air again this afternoon at 4 PM)

He said that we do not change or convert people, but simply plant the seeds, hoping they will not fall on the footpath or rocky ground. Then pray and leave the job to the Holy Spirit. Good advice!! I digress.

Maybe you already know this, but Pius XII's letter to the Boston Bishops formed the basis for article 16 in V-II's Lumen Gentium, Ch. II,
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." (19*)

The footnote (19*) reads: Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.

Article 848 of the CCC references footnote 337, which gives the very same quote. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

Pius XII intervened when Fr. Feeney was circulating EENS material, and he finally was chastised. It was a well-known controversy that some who adhere to "feeneyism" still fight over, since many do not believe in baptism of desire, etc., even though the Church teaches the possibility, even before V-II.

It is THIS that underlies the teaching of LG, which does not negate Pope Eugene, since he was not addressing pagans who had never heard the gospel, but those who heard it and rejected it. His teaching is true, as is V-II's LG.

I am aware that your position is the true teaching of the Catholic Church today, the only Catholic Church that exists or ever has existed and that those who disagree with your position are in error.

Light of the East · Dec 3, 2016

I have gone a little deeper into the book and now I think I know what the hierarchy of the Church has done. Vatican II does not contradict Florence. What they did in VII was simply a development of further defining.

EENS is still in place. What they done is to say "There is only salvation in the Church, but we are not exactly sure where the Church is and where the Church ain't." In other words, pagans, "separated brethren," and other types may well be in the Church and we simply do not know it because we cannot see their hearts and know their longing for God.

God, who sees the longing of their hearts, counts this as membership in the Church, taking into consideration the many other issues which might keep them from formally joining the Church, such as geography, political influences, ignorance, poor teaching, prejudice through lies, etc.

So Florence is still in effect. And so is VII. And they do not conflict.

concretecamper · Dec 3, 2016

Some Dogmas of the faith every Catholic must believe or else they are no longer Catholic.

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation

For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation

The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

Extra-sacramental justification is effected by perfect sorrow only when it is associated with the desire for the Sacrament (votum sacramenti).

pdudgeon · Dec 4, 2016

concretecamper said:
If the Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of souls, and one must belong to the Church for salvation, what kind of savior would make the Church so nebulous and indistinguishable that one doesn't know whether or not he is in the Church or not.

Thank God that He is far-seeing!
When God founded the Church, He knew that it would take both time and opportunity to grow. He also knew and told us that He had other sheep that must be brought in.
That His disciples reached the known world in their lifetime is wonderful--but it was just that; the known world. It took centuries to discover how large the world actually was, and how many inhabitants it had.

Today we are still working to reach those inhabitants.
but where we cannot go, God can.

That's something we have forgotten while relying on our own efforts to spread God's word and knowledge of Him. What we're doing is good but what God does is excellent, so that when everything is accomplished and by whatever methods used, the whole world will eventually know God.

MikeK · Dec 4, 2016

concretecamper said:
Some Dogmas of the faith every Catholic must believe or else they are no longer Catholic.

Please quote your source that says that if a person has uncertainty on any one of these issues that they are "no longer Catholic." I believe you are preaching error again.

concretecamper · Dec 4, 2016

It's easy to look up. I have an idea....go to Mass and pray about it...ok?

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Dec 4, 2016

MikeK said:
Please quote your source that says that if a person has uncertainty on any one of these issues that they are "no longer Catholic." I believe you are preaching error again.

This might be an error yes.
I was taught that all Trinitarian baptisms are baptism into the Catholic Church since there's one baptism and one faith.

One might be a heretic, but I've never heard of anyone getting uncatholic-ized so to speak.

Half communion it may be, but it is Catholic nevertheless.

concretecamper · Dec 4, 2016

Stabat Mater said:
One might be a heretic, but I've never heard of anyone getting uncatholic-ized so to speak.

Half communion it may be, but it is Catholic nevertheless.

Catholic is an all or nothing proposition.

CCC

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

You must accept the Catholic faith in its entirety. If not you are a protestant and heretic.

Catechism of Trent

Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

On Dogmas

CCC

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith

Notice is says this of "all Christian people".

concretecamper · Dec 4, 2016

Stabat Mater said:
One might be a heretic, but I've never heard of anyone getting uncatholic-ized so to speak.

It is called Protestantism

concretecamper · Dec 4, 2016

http://instagr.am/p/BNcz5vyh1wj/

concretecamper · Dec 4, 2016

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.

The faithful Catholic should have no problem with any of the Church's divinely revealed truths

BroIgnatius · Dec 4, 2016

The dogma of "No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church" has not changed. Vatican II did not change it.

But, we must remember that God is not put into a box. He is not bound by the Sacraments. He can save whom he pleases.

The teaching of invincible ignorance and diminished capacity apply that will allow the possibility of those outside of a "card-carrying" Catholic to be saved.

In the 1940's Father Feeney was officially chastised for teaching that one must be a "card-carrying" member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

JCFantasy23 · Dec 6, 2016

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Rhamiel · Dec 7, 2016

BroIgnatius said:
In the 1940's Father Feeney was officially chastised for teaching that one must be a "card-carrying" member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

it is my understanding that he was chastised for his denial of "baptism by desire"

BroIgnatius · Dec 7, 2016

Rhamiel said:
it is my understanding that he was chastised for his denial of "baptism by desire"

That would be an issue, too, but he was most famous for his teaching that only card-carrying Catholics can go to heaven. That is why the term "Feeneyite" was coined for those Ultra-traditionalists who are not in communion with the Church on this issue.

concretecamper · Dec 7, 2016

"For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation"

I am curious about the interpretation of this Dogma. The way it is worded, does it mean that the Eucharist is necessary once you reach the age of reason. It would sort of back up John 6. Comments?

BroIgnatius · Dec 7, 2016

concretecamper said:
"For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation"

I am curious about the interpretation of this Dogma. The way it is worded, does it mean that the Eucharist is necessary once you reach the age of reason. It would sort of back up John 6. Comments?

Baptism is required for Salvation. Then reception of the Eucharist is then required, but need only be received once a year.

Children receive their first communion around seven years of age, which is the age of reason. Then after they may receive anytime they are in a state of grace, or once a year as the minimum requirement by the Church.

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