Fr. Ralph Martin - Will Many Be Saved?

mea kulpa

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Yes it boils down to the interpretation of that one place in scripture.

Do you honest to God believe in EENS in the way it was intended?

No Orthodox Christians in heaven for example?

We entrust these people to the divine mercy of our lord jesus christ and in so doing it is our hope that through Our prayers and the prayers of the whole church they may obtain through our intercession mercy we hope that via the church they still maybe saved other than that yes

It was an "ecumenical council" convened by the Pope, and is known as infallible, especially in those documents designed as "Constitutions." Be careful what you assert here.
Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm

It looks like you need to look into it more... its been widely discussed on these forums in the past and while V2 restated some previous infalible doctrine or dogma... no new dogma or doctrine was defined. You can ignore me or pass me off as a lier if you want but the vatican 2 council WAS NOT infalible.. do your own research
 
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St_Barnabus

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That rock is praising communism now adays which causes great scandal to Catholicism as a whole.

That is a far cry from decrees made in union with the entire hierarchy in an Ecumenical Council, and your implication that the rock is therefore errant will not hold a drop of water. This EENS matter has been hashed over for decades, so I don't expect that things will change in this isolated thread. The hardliners who ascribe to it will continue to pound the table that the Church is wrong and they are the knowledgeable elite.
 
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St_Barnabus

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It looks like you need to look into it more... its been widely discussed on these forums in the past and while V2 restated some previous infalible doctrine or dogma... no new dogma or doctrine was defined.

No new dogma, but new development and understanding of Truth, pronounced in three Dogmatic Constitutions (SC, DV, and LG). It makes little difference to me that it was debated here, for I have been in other forums that negate your argument completely.

Yes, please do your own diligent research. You were not even conceived when the council took place, yet I lived through it.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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That is a far cry from decrees made in union with the entire hierarchy in an Ecumenical Council, and your implication that the rock is therefore errant will not hold a drop of water. This EENS matter has been hashed over for decades, so I don't expect that things will change in this isolated thread. The hardliners who ascribe to it will continue to pound the table that the Church is wrong and they are the knowledgeable elite.

Well play it your way Barnabus and I'll play it my way.
I just find the inconsistency even with JPII on Francesco's take on for example communism speaks Loud and clear for itself.



Have a nice Saturday.
 
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St_Barnabus

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Well play it your way Barnabus and I'll play it my way.
I just find the inconsistency even with JPII on Francesco's take on for example communism speaks Loud and clear for itself.

It is pretty clear what your feelings about Pope Francis are, S.M. I anticipate many more posts from you denigrating his pontificate/person. To say I am scandalized is a good guess.

As for putting one's reliance on Emmerich's prophecies is rather foolish, since you surely must have learned that Catholics are not obligated to believe private revelations. You posted this dogmatically as if true.

It's probably a good idea to put me on ignore, since I doubt we will ever see eye to eye, judging from the negative interchange that we've had so far.
 
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concretecamper

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If the Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of souls, and one must belong to the Church for salvation, what kind of savior would make the Church so nebulous and indistinguishable that one doesn't know whether or not he is in the Church or not.
 
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Light of the East

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Vatican ii was not an infallible council and the church was infested by freemasons by then. Dont trust v2 stick to pre V2 teaching

If I stick to the Council of Florence, then not only is Holy Scripture defied, which says that those who have never known Christ may still be saved by virtue of their following the Law of God as placed in their conscience by the Holy Spirit, but to say that the Orthodox are not saved is ...... ridiculous.

And furthermore, if Vatican II was "infested by Freemasons," then Christ's promise to Peter regarding the indefectibility of the Church has failed, hasn't it?

This really creates problems, doesn't it?
 
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Light of the East

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Yes, but that doesn't limit the salvation to the Roman church.
It limits salvation to apostolic churches.

Not according to the Council of Florence. And if a council is indefectible and is the Church speaking, then this is either God's truth for all times and ages, or......

*staff edit*
 
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Light of the East

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When man applies his finite mind to what his eyes behold, and believes he knows more than the Church by his private interpretations, the result is always the same. No surprise here.

It becomes clear why Our Lord asks for FAITH in His "Peters", for he who hears them, hears Our Lord. You fail to realize that 2500 holy prelates that deliberated with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Vatican II Council have spoken the mind of Christ in Lumen Gentium. Please realize that this document was ratified by the Pope, and is a "Dogmatic Constitution" of the highest order, and is thereby infallible.

Wow! You really don't get it, do you?

Both councils - Florence in 1442 and VII in 1961 - meet those requirements. They are infallible, yet they contradict each other.

Explain.
 
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Light of the East

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You can ignore me or pass me off as a liar if you want but the vatican 2 council WAS NOT infallible. do your own research

Based on what?

And if you can say that it was not infallible, then which of the other councils meet the same standard and can be ignored. You are really opening a can of worms here.
 
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Light of the East

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If the Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of souls, and one must belong to the Church for salvation, what kind of savior would make the Church so nebulous and indistinguishable that one doesn't know whether or not he is in the Church or not.

That is a good question, and makes me wonder why God would allow the lamentable schism which took place in 1054. To the East, Orthodoxy is the Church. To the West, Romanism is the Church.

Someone is wrong.
 
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Light of the East

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Men cause division and God allows us to reap the benefits of our pride.

Yes, I would not argue that, but when the salvation of one's soul is at stake, then how is allowing such confusion in any manner just? And especially for future generations who do not have the intellectual firepower to work their way out of the corner they are in?

For instance, you have some hick Baptist in rural Kentucky somewhere who has only heard that Catholicism is "of the devil." Some Jack Chick nonsense. But he loves Jesus, obeys the Commandments, does charity, and is a good person at heart.

Florence says that nonetheless, he is damned because he is outside the Church. Period. You cannot parse this, you cannot try to clean it up or make it nicey-nice. He is a heretic and according to Florence, he has a front row seat in hell.

Nice.

And remember, councils are indefectible and infallible. You are not to twaddle with their canons, right?

This is all just a bit too much for me. No wonder the West has produced so many atheists.
 
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mea kulpa

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Based on what?

And if you can say that it was not infallible, then which of the other councils meet the same standard and can be ignored. You are really opening a can of worms here.

Well just for a start there are the words of pope paul vi who presided over the council

Pope Paul VI
"In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statements of dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility"
 
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Not according to the Council of Florence. And if a council is indefectible and is the Church speaking, then this is either God's truth for all times and ages, or......

someone was blowing smoke out his.........

Sometimes I wonder if the undivided church prior to 1054 with its seven ecumenical councils were infallible and that later councils weren't.
 
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mea kulpa

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On whom does the infallibility of a council or papal decree rest?

Our lord

Peophecy St John Bosco - 1862

saint%20john%20bosco.gif

“There will be an Ecumenical Council in the next century, after which there will be chaos in the Church.”
 
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