Fr. Ralph Martin - Will Many Be Saved?

Light of the East

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I have started reading Fr. Martin's book as suggested by a friend. Very interesting and full of good information.

I do have a question which has come up in the very first chapter of the book. Martin points out that the earliest writings of the Church, including such Fathers of the Church as Augustine, Chrysostom, and others taught very clearly and without mincing words that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Now this is NOT a discussion of EENS. Please don't even go there. Here's my problem.

On Page 35, it is stated

One of Augustine's theological followers, who lived almost a century after Augustine, Bishop Fulgentius of Ruspe (468-533), formulated these ideas in a form that was to find its way into a decree of the Council of Florence in 1442 and become a particularly formidable "monument of tradition."

Most firmly hold and by no means doubt, that not only all pagans, but also all Jews, and all heretics and schismatics who die outside the Catholic Church will go to the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels

This is a council of the Catholic Church. In other words, the Church, which is the "pillar and ground" of truth, has spoken. This is the truth. End of discussion, right?

Wrong.

I find as I read, that at Vatican II, this unassailable dogmatic teaching of the damnation of all outside the Church, is now changed. At Vatican II, the doors are open for those who are outside the Church as schismatics (Orthodox) and heretics (Protestants) to find eternal life and have the possibility of salvation.

HOW

IS

THIS

POSSIBLE??????

If the TRUTH was stated at Florence in 1442, then that settled the question, didn't it?

TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE.

Not with time or cultural mores. Yet here we have the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, changing the truth in a later ecumencal council.

Do you see the problem this creates for me? It's either one or the other, it can't be both. And either way, since it is a council in which these canons are being set forth, then this is serious business as this is where we expect the guidance of the Holy Spirit and protect of the Church from error.

Okay.....I'll go back to reading the book now. Very interesting, if not challenging.
 
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pdudgeon

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I have started reading Fr. Martin's book as suggested by a friend. Very interesting and full of good information.

I do have a question which has come up in the very first chapter of the book. Martin points out that the earliest writings of the Church, including such Fathers of the Church as Augustine, Chrysostom, and others taught very clearly and without mincing words that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Now this is NOT a discussion of EENS. Please don't even go there. Here's my problem.

On Page 35, it is stated



This is a council of the Catholic Church. In other words, the Church, which is the "pillar and ground" of truth, has spoken. This is the truth. End of discussion, right?

Wrong.

I find as I read, that at Vatican II, this unassailable dogmatic teaching of the damnation of all outside the Church, is now changed. At Vatican II, the doors are open for those who are outside the Church as schismatics (Orthodox) and heretics (Protestants) to find eternal life and have the possibility of salvation.

HOW

IS

THIS

POSSIBLE??????

If the TRUTH was stated at Florence in 1442, then that settled the question, didn't it?

TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE.

Not with time or cultural mores. Yet here we have the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, changing the truth in a later ecumencal council.

Do you see the problem this creates for me? It's either one or the other, it can't be both. And either way, since it is a council in which these canons are being set forth, then this is serious business as this is where we expect the guidance of the Holy Spirit and protect of the Church from error.

Okay.....I'll go back to reading the book now. Very interesting, if not challenging.
 
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pdudgeon

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but it can and is both, thanks to Jesus Christ.

When He came to Earth it was to fulfill prophecy as the Messiah of the Jews, and many Jews of His day did accept Him. But while He was here on Earth He said that the Jews and the Christians of His day weren't the only sheep of His pasture.
There are other sheep, He said. And as their shepherd, He would know which sheep were His.
This is so beautiful. They will know His voice and come to Him when He calls them. They are sheep of His pasture.

to understand this we must remember that as God, Jesus knows his own through all time.
John the Revelator had a beautiful vision of these sheep in heaven. there were so many of Jesus' followers that he, John, couldn't count them.
And Jesus knew them all--every single one!

so while it may be possible for us to look and see folks outside of the Church and wonder, it's not up to us to identify which ones are His; our vision is too limited. Instead let us rejoice that the Church still stands strong and her doors are still open, so that these sheep can still listen to the voice of Jesus, and find their home.
 
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I know how difficult this can be for many, and I hope Mr. (not "Father") Martin will help the reader as you go deeper into his book.

The beginning of Pope Eugene's Bull of 1441 anethematizes a long list of heretical sects, and closes with the words that many take out of context with the entire meaning of Pope Eugene.

All these, together with their heresies, the Holy Roman Church anathematizes, affirming that there are two wills and two operations in Christ. The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her. [...] No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.​

We find therefore, the mention of various heresies and heretics who have knowingly denied various truths of the Catholic Faith. All of these heretics mentioned in the Bull had contact with the full gospel and many (such as the Arians, Manichaeans, and Monophystes) were anathematized. All these sects have heard the message, but refused to enter the Church despite that fact.

Also, notice at the end, it says, that those who shed their blood for Christ, will not be saved, unless they did it within the bosom of the Catholic Church. This again reiterates that they have heard the gospel of Christ. They indeed can not be saved even if martyred because prior to this they had rejected the gospel.

In the same breath of the message of those who have rejected the true gospel, the Pope makes the statement about the pagans, Jews, etc. This takes as a starting assumption that they have heard the message of Christ's gospel. It is not talking about those who have NOT heard the gospel. The ones to whom these decrees are addressed are those that have heard the message and obstinately stay outside the Church. It is true that these cannot be saved.

Notice that this decree does not say, "If those pagans and Jews, etc., have never heard of the gospel, they can not be saved." In order for the strict 'No Salvation' view to be correct, it needs to say that. It did not. If, after hearing the full gospel, they have rejected it, anybody who stays a pagan, Jew, etc. are indeed condemned to hell (just like the Ebionites, Arians, etc.) This is fully consistent with what the Church teaches now.

In this decree there was no mention of those who have not heard the message. Nor of those who through no fault of their own, were born into noncatholic communities many years after the Reformation, which had not happened yet at the writing of this Bull in 1441. It addressed primarily heretics who chose to leave the Church.

The magisterium's position (as stated in CCC 846-847, and which quotes Lumen Gentium) has thus not departed from the truths of the this decree.
 
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Light of the East

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but it can and is both, thanks to Jesus Christ.

When He came to Earth it was to fulfill prophecy as the Messiah of the Jews, and many Jews of His day did accept Him. But while He was here on Earth He said that the Jews and the Christians of His day weren't the only sheep of His pasture.
There are other sheep, He said. And as their shepherd, He would know which sheep were His.
This is so beautiful. They will know His voice and come to Him when He calls them. They are sheep of His pasture.

to understand this we must remember that as God, Jesus knows his own through all time.
John the Revelator had a beautiful vision of these sheep in heaven. there were so many of Jesus' followers that he, John, couldn't count them.
And Jesus knew them all--every single one!

so while it may be possible for us to look and see folks outside of the Church and wonder, it's not up to us to identify which ones are His; our vision is too limited. Instead let us rejoice that the Church still stands strong and her doors are still open, so that these sheep can still listen to the voice of Jesus, and find their home.

You totally did not answer my question AT ALL!! The question is how can an infallible council of the Church, which Scripture states is the "pillar and ground of truth," come to two different and opposing conclusions?

Would you like to try again?
 
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Light of the East

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The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal

That's a nice try, and I appreciate it, but this is a most definitive statement about all who are outside the Church. Time and circumstances are not admissible as reasons, according to this statement. It is clear and unambiguous that pagans, Jews, heretics (Protestants, especially those who have been for many years hearing the apologia of the Church through men like Scott Hahn and David Armstrong) and schismatics (such as all those who are of the Holy Orthodox Churches) are NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.

Now for heaven's sake, don't try to whitewash this! This is a plain and blunt statement that Vatican II just basically tossed in the trash with their own clean and blunt statement that these people are no longer to be called "heretics and schismatics" but "separated brethren."

Both statements cannot be true, and the worst part about this is that if I subscribe to the belief that the Church, speaking in councils, is infallible, then we have a serious problem here, don't we?

I mean, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, but these are really clear and plain statements. And they leave me with a very uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I have started reading Fr. Martin's book as suggested by a friend. Very interesting and full of good information.

I do have a question which has come up in the very first chapter of the book. Martin points out that the earliest writings of the Church, including such Fathers of the Church as Augustine, Chrysostom, and others taught very clearly and without mincing words that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Now this is NOT a discussion of EENS. Please don't even go there. Here's my problem.

On Page 35, it is stated



This is a council of the Catholic Church. In other words, the Church, which is the "pillar and ground" of truth, has spoken. This is the truth. End of discussion, right?

Wrong.

I find as I read, that at Vatican II, this unassailable dogmatic teaching of the damnation of all outside the Church, is now changed. At Vatican II, the doors are open for those who are outside the Church as schismatics (Orthodox) and heretics (Protestants) to find eternal life and have the possibility of salvation.

HOW

IS

THIS

POSSIBLE??????

If the TRUTH was stated at Florence in 1442, then that settled the question, didn't it?

TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE.

Not with time or cultural mores. Yet here we have the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, changing the truth in a later ecumencal council.

Do you see the problem this creates for me? It's either one or the other, it can't be both. And either way, since it is a council in which these canons are being set forth, then this is serious business as this is where we expect the guidance of the Holy Spirit and protect of the Church from error.

Okay.....I'll go back to reading the book now. Very interesting, if not challenging.


John 10:16
"16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
 
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mea kulpa

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I have started reading Fr. Martin's book as suggested by a friend. Very interesting and full of good information.

I do have a question which has come up in the very first chapter of the book. Martin points out that the earliest writings of the Church, including such Fathers of the Church as Augustine, Chrysostom, and others taught very clearly and without mincing words that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Now this is NOT a discussion of EENS. Please don't even go there. Here's my problem.

On Page 35, it is stated



This is a council of the Catholic Church. In other words, the Church, which is the "pillar and ground" of truth, has spoken. This is the truth. End of discussion, right?

Wrong.

I find as I read, that at Vatican II, this unassailable dogmatic teaching of the damnation of all outside the Church, is now changed. At Vatican II, the doors are open for those who are outside the Church as schismatics (Orthodox) and heretics (Protestants) to find eternal life and have the possibility of salvation.

HOW

IS

THIS

POSSIBLE??????

If the TRUTH was stated at Florence in 1442, then that settled the question, didn't it?

TRUTH DOES NOT CHANGE.

Not with time or cultural mores. Yet here we have the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, changing the truth in a later ecumencal council.

Do you see the problem this creates for me? It's either one or the other, it can't be both. And either way, since it is a council in which these canons are being set forth, then this is serious business as this is where we expect the guidance of the Holy Spirit and protect of the Church from error.

Okay.....I'll go back to reading the book now. Very interesting, if not challenging.

Vatican ii was not an infallible council and the church was infested by freemasons by then. Dont trust v2 stick to pre V2 teaching
 
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mea kulpa

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Seen in the light of the gospel it seems dubious to limit the salvation to the Roman church alone.

Jesus said

"All authority has been given to me"

"As the Father sent me so i send you"

"Whoever rejects you rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me"

"I am the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father except through me"

John said

We (apostles) are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
 
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Vatican ii was not an infallible council and the church was infested by freemasons by then. Dont trust v2 stick to pre V2 teaching

You'll get chastised for that comment by the libs Mea so ready yourself for a great storm.

In the spirit of Vatican II must be the most widely embraced heresy in the Catholic church today.

That being said however like you I believe its best to go with the Catholic church prior to her deep identity crisis in the sixties.

Sound doctrine beats the modernist.

About this particular teaching e.g EENS I find that our traditional position contradict the one I quoted from John.

I always prefer the gospel if I sense a disharmony between the two.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Jesus said

"All authority has been given to me"

"As the Father sent me so i send you"

"Whoever rejects you rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me"

"I am the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father except through me"

John said

We (apostles) are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Yes, but that doesn't limit the salvation to the Roman church.
It limits salvation to apostolic churches.

The problem with EENS is that it basically refers to the other apostolic churches along the same lines as pagan believers which is very difficult to understand.

The historical context of EENS may help us shed some light on this though.
This was proclaimed in a time were the church suffered great division so the tools used and the language used were out of the ordinary.

It's the V1 dogma about papal infallibility that makes these things so difficult to understand.
Papal infallibility ties up a lot of things imho.
 
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mea kulpa

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You'll get chastised for that comment by the libs Mea so ready yourself for a great storm.

In the spirit of Vatican II must be the most widely embraced heresy in the Catholic church today.

That being said however like you I believe its best to go with the Catholic church prior to her deep identity crisis in the sixties.

Sound doctrine beats the modernist.

About this particular teaching e.g EENS I find that our traditional position contradict the one I quoted from John.

I always prefer the gospel if I sense a disharmony between the two.

I think your quote from john depicts what we are going through now. At the end of all this confussion will come great clarity and many will be converted and there shall be one shepherd and one flock
 
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mea kulpa

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Yes, but that doesn't limit the salvation to the Roman church.
It limits salvation to apostolic churches.

The problem with EENS is that it basically refers to the other apostolic churches along the same lines as pagan believers which is very difficult to understand.

The historical context of EENS may help us shed some light on this though.
This was proclaimed in a time were the church suffered great division so the tools used and the language used were out of the ordinary.

It's the V1 dogma about papal infallibility that makes these things so difficult to understand.
Papal infallibility ties up a lot of things imho.

Jesus said

You are cephas and upon this rock i will build MY church... no apostolic churches

Jesus said

"I am the vine you are the branches remain in me"
 
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I think your quote from john depicts what we are going through now. At the end of all this confussion will come great clarity and many will be converted and there shall be one shepherd and one flock

In heaven or on earth where all Christians will be one in their sufferings and persecution?

Well I suppose well have to wait this one out.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Jesus said

You are cephas and upon this rock i will build MY church... no apostolic churches

Jesus said

"I am the vine you are the branches remain in me"

Yes it boils down to the interpretation of that one place in scripture.

Do you honest to God believe in EENS in the way it was intended?

No Orthodox Christians in heaven for example?
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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That rock is praising communism now adays which causes great scandal to Catholicism as a whole.

Well if Emmrick is right in her vision we will see an end to this identity crisis soon and the church will reembrace Christ.
 
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St_Barnabus

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That's a nice try, and I appreciate it, but this is a most definitive statement about all who are outside the Church. Time and circumstances are not admissible as reasons, according to this statement. It is clear and unambiguous that pagans, Jews, heretics (Protestants, especially those who have been for many years hearing the apologia of the Church through men like Scott Hahn and David Armstrong) and schismatics (such as all those who are of the Holy Orthodox Churches) are NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.

Now for heaven's sake, don't try to whitewash this! This is a plain and blunt statement that Vatican II just basically tossed in the trash with their own clean and blunt statement that these people are no longer to be called "heretics and schismatics" but "separated brethren."

Both statements cannot be true, and the worst part about this is that if I subscribe to the belief that the Church, speaking in councils, is infallible, then we have a serious problem here, don't we?

I mean, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, but these are really clear and plain statements. And they leave me with a very uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach.
When man applies his finite mind to what his eyes behold, and believes he knows more than the Church by his private interpretations, the result is always the same. No surprise here.

It becomes clear why Our Lord asks for FAITH in His "Peters", for he who hears them, hears Our Lord. You fail to realize that 2500 holy prelates that deliberated with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Vatican II Council have spoken the mind of Christ in Lumen Gentium. Please realize that this document was ratified by the Pope, and is a "Dogmatic Constitution" of the highest order, and is thereby infallible.

FAITH in the heart would conclude, "Roma Locuta Est, Causa Finita Est." You leave no room for faith by asserting your own knowledge and understanding is higher and more perfect. :(

Read page 29 in your book. It radiates.
 
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Vatican ii was not an infallible council and the church was infested by freemasons by then. Dont trust v2 stick to pre V2 teaching
It was an "ecumenical council" convened by the Pope, and is known as infallible, especially in those documents designed as "Constitutions." Be careful what you assert here.
Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm
 
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