Dean of Rota warns Pope could strip Card. Burke and others of cardinalate

Michie · Nov 29, 2016

Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto, Dean of the Roman Rota, told a conference in Spain that Cardinal Burke and the three cardinals who submitted the Dubia to Pope Francis "could odd their cardinalate" for causing "grave scandal" by making the Dubia public.

Continued below.
https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-se...ld-strip-dubia-cardinals-of-their-cardinalate

mea kulpa · Nov 29, 2016

Is prophecy is being fullfilled?

pdudgeon · Nov 29, 2016

related:
https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-se...a-pope-francis-cancels-meeting-with-cardinals

St_Barnabus · Nov 29, 2016

Since I follow the news about the "dubia" in news reports, I had the sense that this would appear here at OBOB, so I am cutting short my advent retreat to offer analysis on this article.
First, the article (and closing comment) was written by Deacon Nick Donnelly. The "comment" was not that of the Dean.

Please note that Deacon Nick is subtly misquoting Canon 212. The section in Canon Law is titled, "The
Obligations and Rights of all the Christian Faithful." It does not pertain to the hierarchy, although Deacon Nick would like for the reader believe that. It is a biased article slanted to make it appear that the Cardinals had the same right ascribed to the faithful.

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

One can wonder about EWTN's fidelity in reporting.

LivingWordUnity · Nov 29, 2016

After Pope Benedict XVI resigned, I tried to guess which cardinal I thought might be selected as the next Pope, and I chose Cardinal Caffarra. And now I find out that he's one of the four cardinals who is being threatened with a demotion. But here's my question about this whole thing going on now: Pope Francis seems to have no tolerance for bishops who question him, but he says that we can doubt God? I think that is the most troubling thing about this.

St_Barnabus · Nov 29, 2016

LivingWordUnity said:
And now I find out that he's one of the four cardinals who is being threatened with a demotion. But here's my question about this whole thing going on now: Pope Francis seems to have no tolerance for bishops who question him...

The Dean's article stated that the four could be demoted, for causing "grave scandal" by making the dubia public. They went overboard to make sure the entire body of the faithful, as well as the College of Bishops were made aware of the matter. They provided a petition for the faithful to sign and submit to the Pope. All over social media!!! Yes, THAT is a cause of grave scandal.

I do not believe Pope Francis has no tolerance, as you suggest, but in the face of this very public attack involving the results of two synods and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it is far more serious than someone just questioning him.

LivingWordUnity · Nov 29, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
The Dean's article stated that the four could be demoted, for causing "grave scandal" by making the dubia public. They went overboard to make sure the entire body of the faithful, as well as the College of Bishops were made aware of the matter. They provided a petition for the faithful to sign and submit to the Pope. All over social media!!! Yes, THAT is a cause of grave scandal.

I do not believe Pope Francis has no tolerance, as you suggest, but in the face of this very public attack involving the results of two synods and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it is far more serious than someone just questioning him.

It's only a guarantee that a teaching from the Vatican was guided by the Holy Spirit when it is an ecumenical dogmatic council or when it is the Pope declaring something from the chair of Peter. Even then it can't be a new revelation and can't contradict a previous doctrine. And there has neither been an ecumenical dogmatic council nor an ex cathedra proclamation during this papacy.

St_Barnabus · Nov 29, 2016

Not going to argue, LWU. Let's just say I disagree.

St_Barnabus · Nov 29, 2016

Here's the petition I mentioned, which now has nearly 16,000 signatures, with hopes for a new goal of 25,000. This reminds me of grammar school.

pdudgeon · Nov 29, 2016

LivingWordUnity said:
After Pope Benedict XVI resigned, I tried to guess which cardinal I thought might be selected as the next Pope, and I chose Cardinal Caffarra. And now I find out that he's one of the four cardinals who is being threatened with a demotion. But here's my question about this whole thing going on now: Pope Francis seems to have no tolerance for bishops who question him, but he says that we can doubt God? I think that is the most troubling thing about this.

comparing the two is kind of like apples and oranges, IMHO.
Can we doubt God?
It is possible to doubt God, but more often it is what we believe about God rather than God Himself that we are doubting.

agreed that The Pope is loosing his tollerance for having to explain things, and agreed that there is an ongoing problem with communications that has yet to be fixed--though they seem to be working on that with the new appointments that have been made.
Hopefully all this will straighten itself out sooner rather than later.

But for now we should be raising our appeals to whichever Saint is in charge of communications. We need some heavenly help! :crossrc:

seekingfreedom · Nov 29, 2016

as Cardinal Pell says in this article along with a lot of other good stuff: Asked whether he agreed with the cardinals’ questions, Cardinal Pell replied: “How can you disagree with a question?” He said that the asking of five questions was “significant”. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...rent-events-in-the-church-says-cardinal-pell/

There is too much division over this. It is like there is a culture war going on in the vatican just as there is a a culture war going on in the world. This shouldn't be. Threats such as has been made by this Archbishop Pio Vito Pinto and the previous remark by the greek bishop that these Cardinals were guilty of heresy is uncalled for. I feel like I am listening to the dirty politics of secular government. It's a disgrace....I just can't believe it! I could say a lot more, but I am trying to be charitable.

pdudgeon · Nov 29, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
Here's the petition I mentioned, which now has nearly 16,000 signatures, with hopes for a new goal of 25,000. This reminds me of grammar school.

it does, yes. and it's not a very good or fitting venue to raise such concerns. I think the 4 cardinals have enough 'clout' among them to agreeably express their concerns adequately without dragging in the laity to try and storm the Vatican aka the French Revolution.

concretecamper · Nov 29, 2016

Funny....tolerance is one side in liberal theology also....not just in liberal politics. We have fallible teaching from the Magisterium and no one is allowed to voice legitimate questions.....sad

seekingfreedom · Nov 29, 2016

concretecamper said:
Funny....tolerance is one side in liberal theology also....not just in liberal politics. We have fallible teaching from the Magisterium and no one is allowed to voice legitimate questions.....sad

The way of the world.

LivingWordUnity · Nov 29, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
Since I follow the news about the "dubia" in news reports, I had the sense that this would appear here at OBOB, so I am cutting short my advent retreat to offer analysis on this article.
First, the article (and closing comment) was written by Deacon Nick Donnelly. The "comment" was not that of the Dean.

Please note that Deacon Nick is subtly misquoting Canon 212. The section in Canon Law is titled, "The
Obligations and Rights of all the Christian Faithful." It does not pertain to the hierarchy, although Deacon Nick would like for the reader believe that. It is a biased article slanted to make it appear that the Cardinals had the same right ascribed to the faithful.

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

One can wonder about EWTN's fidelity in reporting.

I don't agree with your interpretation that "the Christian faithful" does not include the hierarchy. I understand "Christian faithful" as meaning the whole Church. The cardinals are pastors, and they are also Christian faithful who questioned the top pastor at the Vatican.

MikeK · Nov 29, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
Since I follow the news about the "dubia" in news reports, I had the sense that this would appear here at OBOB, so I am cutting short my advent retreat to offer analysis on this article.
First, the article (and closing comment) was written by Deacon Nick Donnelly. The "comment" was not that of the Dean.

Please note that Deacon Nick is subtly misquoting Canon 212. The section in Canon Law is titled, "The
Obligations and Rights of all the Christian Faithful." It does not pertain to the hierarchy, although Deacon Nick would like for the reader believe that. It is a biased article slanted to make it appear that the Cardinals had the same right ascribed to the faithful.

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

One can wonder about EWTN's fidelity in reporting.

As always, your sincere and patient scholarship is a breath of fresh air in a sea of reactionary Earthly partisanship and hatred of Christ.

St_Barnabus · Nov 29, 2016

LivingWordUnity said:
I don't agree with your interpretation that "the Christian faithful" does not include the hierarchy. I understand "Christian faithful" as meaning the whole Church.

You're allowed to "understand" it in your own way. In the specific titling of that section of Canon Law, it is addressing the laity, the faithful, showing their inherent right to question their pastors. If it were to include the hierarchy questioning the Pope, I believe it would be spelled out with more clarity. Let's issue a dubia to a Canon Lawyer.

As for my disagreeing with your comment regarding Francis not issuing anything Ex Cathedra, I believe the Lord is nudging me not to let the statement pass, lest the lurkers be misinformed.

Only two statements in the life of the Church were issued as dogma Ex-C, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption. If you look at the actual proclamation from the Vatican, they are designated "Apostolic Constitutions" - the highest infallible document in the Church.

Pope Francis has issued several Apostolic Constitutions, which are also infallible, but do not attain to the defining of dogma.

Gnarwhal · Nov 29, 2016

I wonder: is this threat/warning/suggestion coming from the Pope through Archbishop Pinto, or is it Pinto himself who is saying this and maybe it's not something that's even crossed Pope Francis' mind?

MikeK · Nov 29, 2016

Geech said:
I wonder: is this threat/warning/suggestion coming from the Pope through Archbishop Pinto, or is it Pinto himself who is saying this and maybe it's not something that's even crossed Pope Francis' mind?

I suspect it is a mere commentary by the Archbishop, though I suspect the flock would be best served if the Pope plucked the dead limbs from the tree. That said, His Holiness consistently amazes me with his patience and I don't doubt his ability to inspire even his most outspoken, prideful critics into humble and faith filled obedience.

LivingWordUnity · Nov 29, 2016

St_Barnabus said:
You're allowed to "understand" it in your own way. In the specific titling of that section of Canon Law, it is addressing the laity, the faithful, showing their inherent right to question their pastors. If it were to include the hierarchy questioning the Pope, I believe it would be spelled out with more clarity. Let's issue a dubia to a Canon Lawyer.

As for my disagreeing with your comment regarding Francis not issuing anything Ex Cathedra, I believe the Lord is nudging me not to let the statement pass, lest the lurkers be misinformed.

Only two statements in the life of the Church were issued as dogma Ex-C, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption. If you look at the actual proclamation from the Vatican, they are designated "Apostolic Constitutions" - the highest infallible document in the Church.

Pope Francis has issued several Apostolic Constitutions, which are also infallible, but do not attain to the defining of dogma.

Since we are all called to be Christian and faithful, I'm sure that canon law would have said "lay faithful" or "the laity" if it intended to mean only the laity.

Dean of Rota warns Pope could strip Card. Burke and others of cardinalate

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