What will Trump mean for religious freedom?

Hank77 said:

There you go again assuming that everyone is talking about unqualified people engaging in therapy. Which is not what I am suggesting at all.

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Coercion and manipulation are forms of abuse and just as potentially damaging as a lobotomy.

The APA formed a task force to examine the ethics and efficacy of conversion therapies and they looked at hundreds of programs across the country. They found that every program dealing with individuals under the age of 18 engaged in some form of coercion and manipulation specifically all programs used at least one of the following:

Overly directive treatment that insists on a particular outcome.

Misinformation on treatment outcomes.

The use of unsound or unproven interventions (the interventions you label as abusive.

Inaccurate, stereotypic, or unscientific information sexual minorities and sexual orientation.


“As noted earlier, we define coercive treatments as practices that compel or manipulate an individual to submit to treatment through the use of threats, intimidation, manipulation, trickery, or some other form of pressure, including threats of future harm. Harm can be physical or psychological. Harmful psychological consequences include disapproval; loss of love; rejection or abandonment by family, community, or peer group; feelings of guilt/obligation; and exploitation of physical, emotional, or spiritual dependence. Working with a variety of client populations presents ethical dilemmas for providers; however, with children and adolescents, such concerns are heightened. Children and adolescents are more vulnerable to such treatments because of the lack of legal rights and cognitive and emotional maturity and emotional and physical dependence on parents, guardians, and LMHP.” APA Therapeutic response to Conversion Therapies.


Look at it from the other direction. Conversion therapies and ex-gay ministries have been around for decades yet in all that time these groups have never published any research on the effectiveness or the safety or the long term effects of participation in such programs. Nothing.

If you are engaging in therapy but cannot account for the safety and efficacy of what you are doing then you are most certainly unqualified

Hank77 said:

I agree that this is one of the problems with this law banning licensed counselors from talking to youth about what the youth Wants to talk about. Whether that is God's view or just that the youth is not happy with the feelings they are experiencing and do not want to go that direction. They deserve to be able to investigate why they feel the way they do, there may be reasons that they cannot openly discuss with people they must face everyday. Private issues or experiences that they need to discuss with someone who will not be free to tell anyone else, etc.

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There is no such law. Young people in counseling can and do talk about what ever they wish, the law however prohibits counselors from engaging in what amounts to quackery.

Ryan et al in 2009 found that anxiety about sexual orientation is tied directly to misinformation about sexual orientation. So the best thing a counselor can do with an adolescent concerned about being homosexual is to have a open and honest conversation and provide factual information

ken777 said:

I wonder what you would say to the bisexual man who is happily married with children but has difficulty controlling his same sex urges.

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the same thing i would say to a heterosexual man who is happily married with children but has difficulty controlling his sex urges.

ken777 said:

It is unfortunate - and dishonest - that the help available today for people with discordant sexual feelings has been misrepresented as the physical practices used for a wide variety of mental conditions in the middle of last century.

I am alarmed that there are counselors today who insist on telling client's what they should be - how many cases of self harm has this "gay-friendly" approach induced, I wonder.

The homosexual community tries to claim that help for those with unwanted same sex urges is harmful by concealing the effect of the hopelessness and depression the "gay" lifestyle inflicts on so many, all for the sake of promoting their ungodly political agenda.

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The help you speak of is being honest and presenting factual information, not being manipulative, coercive and presenting well known falsehoods as facts.

hopelessness and depression isn't caused by being gay or this mythical "gay lifestyle" it comes from harassment, prejudice, discrimination and lies about gays.

SilverBear said:

So the best thing a counselor can do with an adolescent concerned about being homosexual is to have a open and honest conversation and provide factual information

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I agree. Although I think one should be very light handed in providing any kind of quote "factual information" as there is discrepancies as to what the 'facts' are and the 'facts' that relate to one case may not be relevant at all to another case. Thus they could be leading the client to incorrect assumptions about themselves.

SilverBear said:

hopelessness and depression isn't caused by being gay or this mythical "gay lifestyle" it comes from harassment, prejudice, discrimination and lies about gays.

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You are incorrect about this. I know because I know one person who were never harassed, etc., was not in the closet so to speak, and was very unhappy. He had a family that loved him very much and accepted him. He had many friends who cared for him, and he had a good job. He wasn't a drug or alcohol user. He just didn't want to have the feelings he did, didn't want to live alone the rest of his life but didn't want to live with another man. He believed it was immoral and so that made him extremely unhappy with himself.
I highly doubt that he is the only person who has is same issue.

ken777 said:

IOW, you have nothing to offer concerning their same sex urges.

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Just the same thing as would be offered concerning opposite sex urges

The incongruity of homosexual behavior with the personal and religious values of many people will continue to be the motivation for some individuals to seek assistance for their unwanted homosexual attraction. Thank God some are willing to take these people seriously.

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Taking someone seriously involves honesty and an absence of a political agenda.

The APA “Task Force Report on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation” was one of the most shamelessly biased documents ever produced. The 6 members of the committee were all gay activists.

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I'm sure i don't know who was and was not gay and I'm sure it has no more barring on the research presented than the color of their skin. Do you have some specific evidence of the committee presenting false information?

The homosexual community conceals the negativity generated within "gay" culture so evident in those who have been damaged. I have heard personally about 100 first hand stories and there are hundreds of documented cases of change

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Changed to what?


Well there are thousands of documented cases of alien abduction but i don't think that is a reason to believe we are being invaded by UFOs

ken777 said:

Lies about gays?

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Life expectancy of 42 years
Ridiculous claims of promiscuity
Recruiting children
The "gay agenda"
Its a choice
Gay men controlled the Nazi Party and orchestrated the Holocaust.

You know, the usual stuff.

ken777 said:

As Barronelle Stutzman goes before the Washington Supreme Court on Tuesday 15th November, I wonder if Donald Trump will be willing or able to prevent any more of these prosecutions of people who are not prepared to violate their deeply held religious beliefs.

He has already stated that same sex marriage is a settled issue so presumably that will not change. However, it could be possible to remove the threat hanging over the heads of people of faith who are engaged in businesses that provide services used for weddings.

It seems Trump will support the rights of religious schools to not employ openly homosexual teachers without any cut in funding.

Keep Barronelle in your prayers as she faces this trial.

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The Stutzman case is for a violation of state law, not Federal law. It is, therefore, a state matter and not something that comes within the authority of the President.

ken777 said:

Could a similar matter ever make its way to SCOTUS?

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It could but it would be decided based on state law.

ken777 said:

So could a conservative SCOTUS interpret that law to allow greater religious freedom than a liberal court?

You obviously have greater knowledge than me in these matters so perhaps you will allow me to pick your brain a little. In the case of same sex marriage, why did the SCOTUS decision override state legislation?

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Because the Supreme Court decided that the Equal Protection Clause trumps state law.

In answer to your first question, yes a more Conservative Court could do what it wanted, but it is unlikely that it would overturn a state law recognizing homosexuals as a protected class.