One will be left the other taken...

Psalm3704 said:

Like I said, artificial intelligence.








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Here is my source, I would not say artificial.


Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Wrath upon whom?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Wrath upon whom?

Postvieww said:

Here is my source, I would not say artificial.


Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Wrath upon whom?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Wrath upon whom?

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Your strawman attempt to deceive other readers isn't fooling anyone. All they have to do is read the prior posts on the last page and see the argument has been over the timing of the rapture: Pre-trib or Post-trib, not whom God will pour His wrath upon.

Did you finally realized God is against the ungodly? Or were you thinking God was against the righteous all this time?

Again, Christ comes to delivers the church before God pours out His wrath upon the world, not after.

Clearly there's no such thing as a post-trib rapture in the context of the bible as it's refuted.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Hebrews 9:28 Good News Translation (GNT)
28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Zephaniah 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.












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Postvieww said:

Here is my source, I would not say artificial.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Wrath upon whom?

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Wrath upon whom?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Wrath upon whom?

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If you wanna talk about whom.

In case you didn't know, these are also the ones who will endure God's coming wrath. These are Christians who thought Christ was also coming for them and thought it was fine to twist scriptures to promote their self ideology as long as they called Jesus as Lord and prophecy in His name.

The truth is not in them.



So who will endure God's wrath? It's more than you realized.








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Psalm3704 said:

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Gather from heaven is not a rapture.

In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down foolish clown.






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Psalm 3704 said:

That Day refers to the second coming when Christ judges the world. It's not a rapture ole wise...............................guy.

We can agree on the first part, that day refers to the second coming, but you are a little confused on the second part. The very passages you think proves your point refutes it. Let’s look at what it actually says my friend.


2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;


4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:


5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,


Agree this is the second coming.


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Agree this takes place at the second coming.


9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Agree this takes place at the second coming.


10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Now here is where you have a problem. Explain to us how it is that if the church has been in heaven for 7 years, why He was not glorified in his saints at the 1st second coming, your pretrib rapture? Why does He have to come to this earth to be glorified in His Saints?


Why would we not call his return at the end of the tribulation His 3rd coming? Is this “artificial intelligence”?


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


This cannot be a gathering from heaven after the church has already been with Him for 7 years, that is “artificial intelligence” .


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


I fully understand that all pretribbers must interpret this passage out of existence because it destroys the pretrib myth. Many methods and interpretations are used by pretibbers to explain away this passage and yours is a little different from some.


Let’s look at what this passage actually says.


Your attempt to link this to your misinterpretation of Matthew 24 is weak at best and just flat wrong.


I believe this is the same coming as Matt. 24 I just disagree with your method of explaining all of this away.


The passage does not read Jesus gathers us from heaven and then comes to earth, that is only what you need it to say. Any honest reading of the passage shows our gathering is at His coming. That is when He gets here not before He comes.


That day in verse 3 in context refers to the day of His coming in verse 1.


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Them that sleep in Jesus are the souls of the righteous dead that have gone on to be with the Lord, They are not resurrected glorified saints returning with Jesus after the tribulation. If they were already resurrected 7 years before Paul would not have used the language “them that sleep in Jesus”.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Are you denying this is our gathering!

Psalm3704 said:

Your strawman attempt to deceive other readers isn't fooling anyone. All they have to do is read the prior posts on the last page and see the argument has been over the timing of the rapture: Pre-trib or Post-trib, not whom God will pour His wrath upon.

Did you finally realized God is against the ungodly? Or were you thinking God was against the righteous all this time?

Again, Christ comes to delivers the church before God pours out His wrath upon the world, not after.

Clearly there's no such thing as a post-trib rapture in the context of the bible as it's refuted.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Hebrews 9:28 Good News Translation (GNT)
28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Zephaniah 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.












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Psalm 3704 said:Your strawman attempt to deceive other readers isn't fooling anyone.

Very serious charge, I don’t believe you can back that up. So you say because I disagree with you I am deceiving other readers?

All they have to do is read the prior posts on the last page and see the argument has been over the timing of the rapture:

The majority of my references to the rapture have been in response to you. Of the two of us you brought it up first on this thread.

Pre-trib or Post-trib, not whom God will pour His wrath upon.

My whole point is the misuse of “we are not appointed to wrath” which does not prove or imply a pretrib exit from this earth. God is not pouring lout His wrath on the church. The idea that we have to be gone or we will be hit by stray wrath is a “strawman“ argument use by pretribbers .

Did you finally realized God is against the ungodly? Or were you thinking God was against the righteous all this time?

Is this your version of “How to conduct a stimulating intelligent and constructive dialogue like an adult”?

Again, Christ comes to delivers the church before God pours out His wrath upon the world, not after.

Pretrib rapture is not in scripture.

Clearly there's no such thing as a post-trib rapture in the context of the bible as it's refuted.

Wrong!

Postvieww said:

Now here is where you have a problem. Explain to us how it is that if the church has been in heaven for 7 years, why He was not glorified in his saints at the 1st second coming, your pretrib rapture? Why does He have to come to this earth to be glorified in His Saints?

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1) What do you think is happening in heaven during Revelation 7:9-12?

2) What do you think the palm branches in their hands means?

3) Do you think the 144,000 gets rapture with the church?

4) Will Daniel's 70th week be completed in heaven or on earth?

5) What do you call a blonde that dyed her hair brunette? Artificial...........coloring?

I REST MY CASE!!!

Postvieww said:

Why would we not call his return at the end of the tribulation His 3rd coming? Is this “artificial intelligence”?

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How many times will His feet touch the mount of Olives? Two more times in the near future for a 3rd coming?

Unless His return is exactly as He left 2000 years ago, it's not a second coming.

How hard is it to understand if He doesn't come to earth, it's not a second coming, ole wise.........guy.

I REST MY CASE!!!

Postvieww said:

This cannot be a gathering from heaven after the church has already been with Him for 7 years, that is “artificial intelligence” .

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Jesus doesn't wait until the end of the 7 years before coming to earth!

Jesus doesn't wait until the end of the 7 years before coming to earth!

Jesus doesn't wait until the end of the 7 years before coming to earth!

Jesus doesn't wait until the end of the 7 years before coming to earth!

Jesus doesn't wait until the end of the 7 years before coming to earth!

Who ends the war at Armageddon and prevent a complete annihilation of mankind?


Does Jesus come to earth before Armageddon or after Armageddon?


Does Jesus' return in Luke 21:25-28 sound like the tribulation is already over?


The tribulation doesn't end till after the antichrist is defeated at Armageddon.

After the tribulation is world peace. Jesus doesn't come to earth at a time of world peace. He comes near the end of the tribulation at the 7th year, not after.

Your foolish notion of a post-tribulation rapture and Jesus coming to earth after the tribulation at a time of peace falls over the cliff.

I REST MY CASE!!!

Postvieww said:

Your attempt to link this to your misinterpretation of Matthew 24 is weak at best and just flat wrong.

Click to expand...

Postvieww said:

I believe this is the same coming as Matt. 24 I just disagree with your method of explaining all of this away.

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Let me explain this in a way that you can understand.

Your knowledge of Matthew 24 is weak at best and just flat wrong.

Postvieww said:

The passage does not read Jesus gathers us from heaven and then comes to earth,

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It's cause you erroneously think Jesus comes to earth after the tribulation. And you also erroneously think Jesus comes with the church when He leaves heaven. Wrong on both accounts!





The church is in heaven waiting till after the indignation.


Immediately after the tribulation is then when Christ will send His angels to gather the church waiting in heaven.


I REST MY CASE!!!












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Postvieww said:

Are you denying this is our gathering!

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I 110% deny everything you think what the gathering is in the bible.


Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!


Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!







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Psalm3704 said:

I 110% deny everything you think what the gathering is in the bible.

Isaiah 49:8-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Thus says the Lord:

“In an acceptable time I have heard You,
And in the day of salvation I have helped You;
I will preserve You and give You
As a covenant to the people,
To restore the earth,
To cause them to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That You may say to the prisoners, ‘Go forth,’
To those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’

“They shall feed along the roads,
And their pastures shall be on all desolate heights.
10 They shall neither hunger nor thirst,
Neither heat nor sun shall strike them;
For He who has mercy on them will lead them,
Even by the springs of water He will guide them.
11 I will make each of My mountains a road,
And My highways shall be elevated.
12 Surely these shall come from afar;
Look! Those from the north and the west,
And these from the land of Sinim.”

13 Sing, O heavens!
Be joyful, O earth!
And break out in singing, O mountains!
For the Lord has comforted His people,
And will have mercy on His afflicted.
14 But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
And my Lord has forgotten me.”
15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,
And not have compassion on the son of her womb?
Surely they may forget,
Yet I will not forget you.
16 See, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.
17 Your sons shall make haste;
Your destroyers and those who laid you waste
Shall go away from you.
18 Lift up your eyes, look around and see;
All these gather together and come to you.
As I live,” says the Lord,
“You shall surely clothe yourselves with them all as an ornament,
And bind them on you as a bride does.

19 “For your waste and desolate places,
And the land of your destruction,
Will even now be too small for the inhabitants;
And those who swallowed you up will be far away.
20 The children you will have,
After you have lost the others,
Will say again in your ears,
‘The place is too small for me;
Give me a place where I may dwell.’
21 Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who has begotten these for me,
Since I have lost my children and am desolate,
A captive, and wandering to and fro?
And who has brought these up?
There I was, left alone;
But these, where were they?’”

22 Thus says the Lord God:

“Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations,
And set up My standard for the peoples;
They shall bring your sons in their arms,
And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders;
23 Kings shall be your foster fathers,
And their queens your nursing mothers;
They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth,
And lick up the dust of your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord,
For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me.”

24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty,
Or the captives of the righteous be delivered?

25 But thus says the Lord:

“Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away,
And the prey of the terrible be delivered;
For I will contend with him who contends with you,
And I will save your children.
26 I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh,
And they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine.
All flesh shall know
That I, the Lord, am your Savior,
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”​

Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!

Ezekiel 39:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations,28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”​

Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!







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Psalm3704 said:

I 110% deny everything you think what the gathering is in the bible.

Ok now prove it.

Isaiah 49:8-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you see a trip to heaven for the church in the above passages? Before you get too excited and think you’ve found it in air, clouds and ever be with the Lord. Air and clouds are not heaven where God dwells and where the Lord will ever be after His return is here on earth!


Ezekiel 39:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

Do you see a rapture taking place here when Christ gathers His elects on earth after the tribulation?

I REST MY CASE!!!

My point is, in case you didn’t catch it is: If a trip to heaven is not explicitly spelled out in so called pretrib rapture texts what’s makes you think a rapture would be spelled out in the text you have provided even if it does take place at that time?



NO TWO COMING OF THE LORD PASSAGES ARE IDENTICAL. So all arguments, like His feet doesn’t touch down in this text but it does in the other or there is no resurrection mentioned in this coming but it is in another, are irrelevant. He comes one more time there is one resurrection for the church, and it is when He comes. When He comes again He stays there is no return trip to heaven in scripture. If you have one show it?



Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.


Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52





Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:





Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event. I would submit this does not refer to where God dwells.



30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.





Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.



31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.





Jer. 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.


The events of this passage are on this earth.


Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


The events of this passage are on the earth.


Zech 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.


The events of this passage are on the earth



In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells. All of these examples are the same type of language as Matthew 24:31.

Now let’s look at the language of Mark.


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,


25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.


26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This passage clearly says there is gathering from “the uttermost part of the earth”. That alone refutes your theory. So you say it says heaven too.


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


He will bring with Him when He comes, the souls of them that sleep in Jesus. That is what the text says, it matters not to me whether or not you believe it or agree.



There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


You have not made a case that stands up! I wouldn’t rest now if I were you.

Psalm 3704 said:

“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”

Not supported with scripture!

I know you won't let me rest, so I will not even say it.

Postvieww said:

Ok now prove it.

Isaiah 49:8-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

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I just did ole brilliant one who knows not thy right foot from thy left when it comes to prophecy.

Read 49:8-26.

Postvieww said:

Do you see a trip to heaven for the church in the above passages? Before you get too excited and think you’ve found it in air, clouds and ever be with the Lord. Air and clouds are not heaven where God dwells and where the Lord will ever be after His return is here on earth!

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That's cause in attempting to make an argument, you pulled the wrong verses out of context.

I can do you too and use the same argument.


Do you see the church getting rapture into the air after the tribulation? Before you get overly excited, there's no post-tribulation rapture found here.

Postvieww said:

My point is, in case you didn’t catch it is: If a trip to heaven is not explicitly spelled out in so called pretrib rapture texts what’s makes you think a rapture would be spelled out in the text you have provided even if it does take place at that time?

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Okay than show us the text in the bible that actually say "Christians will do a U-turn in the air after the tribulation."

My point is, in case you didn’t catch it is: If a U-turn in mid air is not explicitly spelled out in so called post-trib rapture texts what’s makes you think a rapture would be spelled out in the text you have provided even if it does take place at that time?

Postvieww said:

NO TWO COMING OF THE LORD PASSAGES ARE IDENTICAL. So all arguments, like His feet doesn’t touch down in this text but it does in the other or there is no resurrection mentioned in this coming but it is in another, are irrelevant. He comes one more time there is one resurrection for the church, and it is when He comes. When He comes again He stays there is no return trip to heaven in scripture. If you have one show it?

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No! You were trying to promote heresy by claiming Christ comes to earth in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. This is purely artificial intelligence on your behalf.

Postvieww said:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52

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More strawman on your part to deceive readers.


I say again. How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Postvieww said:

Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context.

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Do you know what a star is?

Do you know what would happen if a star collided with the earth?

Apparently you can't seem to decipher when the bible is written in metaphoric language.

Postvieww said:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.

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And what are you trying to tell us here?

That this confirms a post-tribulation rapture?

I think not! No U-turn in the air explicitely stated in that verse.

Postvieww said:

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.

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No!!! 110% wrong!

Where is Jesus and His angels when He comes judges the world? Is He on earth or still in heaven?


Now if Jesus is on earth and fighting in Armageddon, after the tribulation, does Jesus go back up to heaven to rapture the church into the air than come back down to earth?

How many times will Jesus go up and down, up and down during tribulation? This would mean 4 comings of Christ.

Scripture backs up the former!

Postvieww said:

Jer. 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

The events of this passage are on this earth.

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This is about Elam, modern day Iranians. This has nothing to do with the rapture.

Just because you pulled a verse out of context simply because the words "four winds of heaven" is used doesn't mean it's about the rapture, oh birdbrain.

Postvieww said:

Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

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Just because you pulled a verse out of context simply because the words "four winds of heaven" is used doesn't mean it's about the rapture, oh birdbrain.

Postvieww said:

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The events of this passage are on the earth.

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Just because you pulled a verse out of context simply because the words "four winds of heaven" is used doesn't mean it's about the rapture, oh birdbrain.

Postvieww said:

Zech 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

The events of this passage are on the earth

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Just because you pulled a verse out of context simply because the words "four winds of heaven" is used doesn't mean it's about the rapture, oh birdbrain.

Postvieww said:

In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells. All of these examples are the same type of language as Matthew 24:31.

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And none of the above verses you pulled out of context were about the rapture either.

You're the only knucklehead in the world who thinks Jeremiah 49:36, Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8 and Zechariah 2:6 are all parallel verses of Matthew 24:31 simply because they all used the words "four winds of heaven."

Postvieww said:

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This passage clearly says there is gathering from “the uttermost part of the earth”. That alone refutes your theory. So you say it says heaven too.

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And you ignored the part at the end of Mark 13:27 where it also say from heaven.

In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down foolish clown! Artificial intelligence!

And I already covered that yesterday in post#137. The remnants of Israel are being gather from the earth.

Do you see a rapture anywhere in these scriptures?











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Postvieww said:

“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”

Not supported with scripture!

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You got that right einstein.

A post-trib rapture is not supported with scripture.








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Postvieww said:

There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

You have not made a case that stands up! I wouldn’t rest now if I were you.

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Your comprehension is what doesn't stand up.

If Christ comes to deliver the church before God pours out His wrath upon the world and not after, that's clearly Pre-Trib and completely refutes Post-trib.

Clearly there's no such thing as a post-trib rapture in the context of the bible as it's refuted.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Hebrews 9:28 Good News Translation (GNT)
28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Zephaniah 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.

Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.











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Postvieww,

These are all parallel verses because they all have the four winds of heaven, right?

Jeremiah 49:36
Against Elam I will bring the four winds From the fourquarters of heaven, And scatter them toward all those winds; There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 7:2
Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 8:8
Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four windsof heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 11:4
And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Zechariah 2:6
[ Future Joy of Zion and Many Nations ] “Up, up! Flee from the land of the north,” says the Lord; “for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven,” says the Lord.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=four+winds+of+heaven&qs_version=NKJV

If you're trying to find parallel verses, type in the word "mystery." You'll get much more than 7 results and they're all the same mystery.

Trust me. I know artificial intelligence when I see it.

It works with "sun, moon and stars" too.









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Psalm3704 said:

In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down foolish clown! Artificial intelligence!

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Do not think for one second that you hold the high ground in this rapture issue. The fact you have resorted to personal denigration and scoffing, is an indictment against you and has the effect of others questioning where you are coming from and what is your agenda.
Anyone discussing an issue in the way I see you doing it, immediately thinks: you must have a very flimsy case. This is plain anyway, from how you mix up quotes that belong to different times and places. But the BIG refutation of a pre-trib rapture is the complete lack of any Bible verse that says God plans to do such a thing.
I suggest, for your own good, that you leave off promoting a rapture, believe it if you must, but don't teach it. James 3:1

rockytopva said:

That does not sound like a post-trib rapture to me either.

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Why?

keras said:

... the BIG refutation of a pre-trib rapture is the complete lack of any Bible verse that says God plans to do such a thing.

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Now I agree with that statement.

keras said:

I suggest, for your own good, that you leave off promoting a rapture, believe it if you must, but don't teach it. James 3:1

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I think a rapture at Christ's 2nd coming is biblical, just not a pre-trib rapture. (And I do wish those who teach a pre-trib raptue would stop, and take a few steps back and rethink things.)

The rapture will be post-trib (after the tribulation of the saints by antichrist). In fact, it is the sudden appearing of the LORD and His rescue of His bride (on the day that the Day of the LORD begins) which brings their persecution to an end. I could offer a well-written book which explains this view, if anyone is interested.

Psalm3704 said:

Postvieww,

These are all parallel verses because they all have the four winds of heaven, right?

Jeremiah 49:36
Against Elam I will bring the four winds From the fourquarters of heaven, And scatter them toward all those winds; There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 7:2
Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 8:8
Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four windsof heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 11:4
And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Zechariah 2:6
[ Future Joy of Zion and Many Nations ] “Up, up! Flee from the land of the north,” says the Lord; “for I have spread you abroad like the four winds of heaven,” says the Lord.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=four+winds+of+heaven&qs_version=NKJV

If you're trying to find parallel verses, type in the word "mystery." You'll get much more than 7 results and they're all the same mystery.

Trust me. I know artificial intelligence when I see it.

It works with "sun, moon and stars" too.









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I never said they were parallel passages I said they used the same type language, quote from my post below.


“In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells. All of these examples are the same type of language as Matthew 24:31."


The whole point here is every time the word heaven is used, it does not refer to where God dwells. Sorry you missed that fact.

Psalm3704 said:

You got that right einstein.

A post-trib rapture is not supported with scripture.








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How did you miss it? It was your quote I said was not supported by scripture.

Psalm 3704 said ““How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”

Thank you, I believe I did get it right.

Psalm3704 said:

You got that right einstein.

A post-trib rapture is not supported with scripture.

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Hello,

I have a request of Psalm3704 (and perhaps later one of Postvieww).

I see that the two of you have been going back and forth, and I simply do not have the time to read through all the posts and arguments.

So, Psalm3704, would you mind condensing down you arguments both for the pre-trib rapture, and against a post-trib rapture.

What I would like to see is what you think are the best 3 or 4 passages (with a brief explanation from yourself) which you think support a pre-trib rapture, and then I would like to see what you think are the best 3 or 4 passages (with a brief explanation from yourself) which you think deny a post-trib rapture. If you could do this, I think it would help me (and perhaps others) greatly.

Psalm 3704 said:

The church is in heaven waiting till after the indignation.

No that is not what is in Isaiah, let’s review.

Isaiah 26:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Your dead shall live;

Together with my dead body they shall arise.

Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;

For your dew is like the dew of herbs,

And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Agree, you did see a resurrection above.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,

And shut your doors behind you;

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.

Are you suggesting there will be hiding behind closed doors in chambers located in heaven (where God dwells) ????? I believe the passage says enter YOUR chambers and shut YOUR doors and hide YOURSELF, it does not say enter the chambers I have prepared for you in heaven.

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place

To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,

And will no more cover her slain.

Now which verse in the above passage is it said anyone went up into heaven where God dwells or did you just assume there were chambers with doors to hide behind in heaven(where God dwells).

DingDing said:

Hello,

I have a request of Psalm3704 (and perhaps later one of Postvieww).

I see that the two of you have been going back and forth, and I simply do not have the time to read through all the posts and arguments.

So, Psalm3704, would you mind condensing down you arguments both for the pre-trib rapture, and against a post-trib rapture.

What I would like to see is what you think are the best 3 or 4 passages (with a brief explanation from yourself) which you think support a pre-trib rapture, and then I would like to see what you think are the best 3 or 4 passages (with a brief explanation from yourself) which you think deny a post-trib rapture. If you could do this, I think it would help me (and perhaps others) greatly.

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I see you addressed Psalm3704 first, since his pattern seems to be to post very early morning most of the time I’ll go first.


First short background, I was saved in 1980 and for most of those years I was very much pretib in my beliefs.


The passage that began to change my thinking is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. The key verse for me was verse 3.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Truth is since I have been on this forum I have seen several creative ways to interpret this passage to say something other than what it actually says. I just choose to take it at face value.

Passage# 2 is from John chapter 6.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Four times in this one chapter Jesus said the resurrection was at the last day.


I see no references anywhere in scripture for multiple resurrection for the righteous dead.


I guess you will just have to discern for yourself what you believe the last day to be.


Passage #3.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As with any passage used to “prove” a case multiple interpretations are often involved,confusing many.


I lean toward taking scripture at face value the less creative the interpretation the better. Simply put Jesus said immediately after the tribulation He would come and gather His elect.


My advice is to spent more time focusing on what any passage says and less time on what anyone tells you it says.


I am going to take the liberty of quoting Keras from post #133


“But the BIG refutation of a pre-trib rapture is the complete lack of any Bible verse that says God plans to do such a thing.”


God bless you and your pursuit of truth.


I welcome any questions.