First, do note that if we don't agree on this, it really doesn't matter.
There are NO prophesy experts until the thing has come to pass. We all might have bits and pieces but truly the fullness of ANY prophesy is not completely understood until it has come to pass.
Hi Ken. Thanks for trying to clarify, but on this point I don't think your explanation added clarity for me. I asked some questions about how the "over not up" interpretation would work on a practical level. If people from all over the world are changed (presumably to new bodies) and we're all gathered to a staging point, that for most of us, will be hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers away, then how do we get to that staging point? If we don't go up, then it must be by land that we travel, and that presents a new set of questions. Are we walking/running, or floating or driving? Do we travel through solid materials or must we go around them? Even if we have bodies which can run and not grow tired, any person in the Americas will need to also swim.
I thought I had covered this in my very first post that you commented on. I said it is "possible" based on the use of harpazo both in the NT and the LXX that we are looking at a rapture that goes sideways rather than vertical. Also, "caught up in the air" is being taken very literally by you, and it may be literal, but it also can be idiomatic. In the exodus out of Egypt, God manifested Himself as a cloud, and when He stood between the Egyptian army and Israel, it was 'as if' Israel had been caught up in the cloud. Or... we can say that since God is a Spirit and He manifested Himself in a cloud, being in Him... that is to say, "in the Spirit," is what "being caught up with the Lord" means. There are probably 10 more ways I can describe this, all different, and all could be wrong. One thing I am 99.9% certain of... there is no pre-tribulation rapture where we are taken to heaven while the Jews are left behind to get their butts kicked, again.
The Matthew 24 account describes Jesus appearing in "the heavens" and coming with the "clouds of Heaven". Maybe that means a "great host" but the angels told the disciples that Jesus would appear again the same way he went up. The way he went up was, up into a cloud. The angels at this time are described as "gathering the elect". It's not entirely clear where they are gathered to, but in the context it makes sense that we are gathered to Jesus who has just gloriously appeared. It doesn't make sense that we'd be gathered to some earthly location so that we can cross the red sea. In Moses' day, truly the parting of the red sea was miraculous and glorious, but that miracle can't hold a candle to the glorious return of Jesus in the clouds, which is described as lightning and fire in the sky.
It could be but it "seems" in Acts that Yeshua went up in clouds and the two angels said, "Just as you saw him go, so shall he return." The gathering done by the angels is of all His Israel from anywhere in the world they are. And while yes ultimately we are gathered to Him.... there is a timing issue. We have this thing we do, we read in English and everything seems so cut and dry, but often it is not. We can't ignore (not saying you are) certain verses and then grab a hold of other verses and take a doctrinal stand. We have a Millennial Kingdom coming, on Earth, from Jerusalem.. where Messiah reigns as King. I believe this is literal because it is repeated in so many different ways in so many different places that it is very difficult to see it otherwise. Now... he is coming for a single unified bride... not a divided mess. Right now we are a divided mess and this is why I raised the point about the Feasts. Let me share a thought, ok?
The fall feasts are Yom Teruah (Trumpets), Yom Kippur (Atonement) and Sukkot (Tabernacles). These are dealing with His return... and so Teruah is a day of blowing the shofar, it is a call to Israel to gather. So I believe that there will be a call, and I believe we will be gathered. This happens at the end of the tribulation, it is the last trumpet... and what happens next? Well, 10 days pass during which, traditionally, one takes the time to reflect, repent, in our case prepare ourselves for the coming bridegroom. After 10 days comes Kippur and what is Kippur about? The answer is sin.... it was on this day that two goats were offered. One was the scapegoat upon which the sins of Israel were symbolically heaped and that goat was cast out of the assembly and away. This symbolism points to the day when sin is removed from His Israel (His people) and sent back to where it came, haSatan. Since sin is what causes decay and death, and since we are changed and perfected on the day He returns... then it seems He will return on a Yom Kippur because that is when he finally removes the sin, and with it, the wage of decay and death. So we will gather on Teruah and be changed on Kippur. Yes, I know... no man knows the day or hour and that includes me. I can say, "on Yom Kippur" but have no idea when that will be. Then, Sukkot... the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. The tabernacling of the bride with the bridegroom.
How do we get there? I >>THINK<< we will be called and moved to a place closer to Jerusalem, perhaps the west side of the Red Sea... and for 10 days we will march toward Jerusalem at which time Messiah will return and >>ALL<< of His Israel will be gathered for this event. But I could be wrong! I do not fear being wrong... in fact, when something I believe or think is exposed as wrong I rejoice knowing I am about to learn a new truth!
However, Paul describes this same scenario and he does specifically make it clear that we will be "caught up into the clouds to meet the lord in the air". I realize that words like "clouds", "up" and "air" can all be interpreted in different ways depending on the context, but when all three are used together to describe going "up" into the "air" to "meet the lord" in the "clouds" it becomes nigh unreasonable to suggest that this is actually talking about going over so that we can meet a body of water on the land. It's not a meeting with the red sea which is our hope, but a meeting with Jesus when he returns.
Yes, and again, that may very well be. Or, it can mean we will be in the Spirit or any number of other things I have already mentioned. And no, the Red Sea is not our hope.... but neither is any other physical place and that does not mean we won't be in those physical places at a certain time. So it might not be our hope, but it could be in God's plan. Again, He will make it go dry like it was in the day He led the Israelites out of Egypt. You might read that a different way, that is fine... it really doesn't matter to me.
Like I said, there are no prophesy experts until it comes to pass. Our call is to know the time in which we live but also to reach out to those who are seeking. I think sometimes we can get lost in the details. I really don't care if there is a horizontal rapture that takes us passed Sinai or a vertical rapture that takes me to heaven to be with the Lord. Either way, it would be His plan and either way I would end up with Him... so why does it really matter?
Fun to discuss, but ultimately this is not the knowledge people are lacking that need to know Him, right?
I don't see how references to various feast days deals with this in any practical way.
Because the church stopped studying them 1700 years ago. They are very detailed in how they speak of His work. He said, "search the scripture for in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they which testify of me." There was no NT back then... in fact, until 90AD, the only canonized works were the Torah and Prophets and Yeshua HIMSELF told us, "they testify of me." I gave you (above) a scenario based on 3 feasts and what they point to. I could be wrong, but you would be shocked at the growing amount of Christians who are gravitating toward the study of these things. The feasts are based on historical events AND they are prophetic fingers pointing to things to come. Our "NT only" culture simply doesn't studying them so it doesn't see how they can help. That is just the paradigm we are raised in and quite frankly, it is a bad paradigm. I know because I was born into it too and probably made the same statement you just did 15-20 years ago.
Both. Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, and he did that at least partly by saying, "A new commandment I give to you; love one another as I have loved you". Loving one another certainly wasn't a new concept, but the caveat at the end was. "As I have loved you".
That is well said... loving God and neighbor are bother commandments called "new" in the "NT" but both appear in the Tanach, in the OT. What has changed? Only that somebody came and walked it out in a manner that revealed the full intent behind the words. He didn't come to do away with the Torah... He came to walk in out in such a manner that we understood God's desire and intent behind the words.
Depends on what you mean by "new". All knowledge and wisdom has existed as long as God has existed, and yet, any time we learn something about that knowledge or wisdom, it is new to us. The Revelation of Jesus is just that, a revealing of Jesus. The information in the Revelation is only as new to us as Jesus himself is new.
We're on the same page here... I already shared what I meant. Nearly 700 references to the OT exist in the book of Revelation. That means that each chapter contains roughly 33 OT references, direct quotes, or inferences. Revelation doesn't exist without the Tanach.
The more I read of your position, the more it starts to sound like quite a fascination with the old testament. I think a healthy appreciation for the old is important; even Jesus quoted the OT on many occasions and he kept the various feast days according to the various traditions and rituals. But what I see in your references doesn't appear to be for the sake of promoting the New, but rather co-opting the New back into the old.
I don't want to get into this topic here. I will simply say this... in addition to the numbers just shared in the last clip.... Do you watch movies and if not, surely you have gone to a theater at some point in your life, right? Would you pay $10-$15 to watch a 2 hour movie that began 1.5 hours ago? No... while the remaining 30 minutes would be entertaining, it couldn't be fully understood and appreciated because 75% of it had already played out and the context that the final 30 minutes is based on, would be lost to you. The bible is 75% "Old Testament"... and only 25% new. Now please consider this... there is no less than 2700+ references, direct quotes, or allusions to the OT in the NT. So... if you missed the first 75% of the movie (don't read the OT) and the remaining 25% references the 75% over 2700 times... then how can you fully grasp the context in the remaining 25%? Surely you can discern some of God's will, but you would be leaving food on the table He desires for you to eat.
So yes, I focus heavily in my studies on the OT for that reason. Besides... when Paul said, "All Scripture was given by the inspiration of God and was profitable for teaching and correction?" He was not referencing his own letters, there was no NT for another 150 YEARS. His reference was to the only "Scripture" in that day... the Torah and the Prophets. I am NOT SAYING the NT is not inspired, it is... I am just keeping this in context.
Paul described the old as a shadow of something better to come and Jesus described his teachings as new wine. If you put new wine into the old bottles, they will not have room for growth and will invariably crack. A... sobering warning indeed.
Thanks for correcting me for something I am not doing.
Except, he didn't literally hold each and every person's hand in his hand. I have a feeling we disagree on what "literal" means in this context.
No, but He did go before and with them as a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night. The "hand holding" is metaphoric... God uses them often. He isn't really a rock, but LIKE ONE, He is strong and steadfast in our lives. So, He didn't literally hold their hand, but LIKE ONE WHO WOULD HOLD THEIR HAND TO LEAD THEM.... He manifested as a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night. The hand holding is abstract... but saying He will dry up the sea "just like He did before" is not because He did LITERALLY dry up the sea. And since He said He will do it like He did before, and before was literal... then there is no reason to take it any other way.
In the OT, there are far more examples of people disobeying God than there are of those who did obey.
Perhaps... but we have 4000 years of history and of the 1,281 pages in the bible, there are 993 pages in the Old Testament and 288 pages in the New Testament. What that means is, we have 4000 years of history condensed to 993 pages? God gave us the stories He wanted us to have, that would teach us what He desired us to learn. Many were obedient as well...
