Do apostles and prophets exist today?
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Major1,
Have you bothered to read the other scriptures I've referred to throughout the thread.
The Bible mentions the twelve apostles, the apostles of the Lamb. There are twelve who are called apostles of the Lamb. Eleven of these were appointed as apostles before the ascension. But there also apostles who were given to the church as apostles AFTER the ascension, men like Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, and Apollos.
There are more than 12 apostles in scripture. The fact that Revelation designates 12 apostles as apostles of the Lamb doesn't change that fact.
Why try to read scriptures in such a way that they contradict necessary to interpret them that way?
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I Corinthians 9 does not say that. Paul gives several reasons as evidence for his right to live of the Gospel, his being an apostle, being free, and having seen Christ were among his reasons.
Since apostles dont' lose their apostleship if they lose their freedom, it does not make sense to argue that apostles had to see the Lord. (Look at the list of questions there if you don't follow my argument.) John apparently lost his freedom and was sentenced to time on Patmos, but was still an apostle. Peter, John, Paul, and Silas were imprisoned at times, but it didn't change their apostleship.
You contradict scripture because there are more than 12 apostles in scripture. In John's vision, 12 of them are called apostles of the Lamb.
Paul and Barnabas really were apostles. The Bible calls them apostles.
We need to really read the whole Bible and take it into account when considering issues like this. A few of the verses mixed with some traditional notions isn't enough[/QUOTE]
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Major1
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Yes sir I did and that is why I posted what I did.
It seems to me that you are confusing Bible Scriptures with Catholic dogma. It seems that you are also confusing "disciple" with "Apostles".
Yes, there were many more than 12 disciples. The word disciple simply means student or pupil, and Jesus had numerous followers of this type. The second time he sent disciples out to bring the good news to Israel he actually sent 72, not just 12 like He had the first time. (Luke 10:1)
The 12 Apostles then are featured because they were the Lord’s closest associates among those who were with Him throughout His ministry on Earth. And even among them He had an inner circle consisting of Peter, James, John, and sometimes Andrew.
If we look deeper into this we something special IMHO.
There was twelve men, specifically selected by Jesus, to travel with Him. The responsibility of the very words of the Master weighed like a heavy mantle upon them. The Twelve would continue representing Jesus long after He ascended into Heaven. Their dedication would impact the church long after their deaths.
In the Bible, twelve, like seven, frequently suggested completeness and perfection. In the Old Testament, twelve represented “all Israel” (Genesis 49:28; Joshua 13-19).
The Book of Revelation provides numerous references to twelve.
12 tribes of Israel, which are sealed and protected (Revelation 7:5-8; Revelation 21:12)
12 stars in the woman’s (Israel) crown, symbolizing the 12 sons of Jacob (Rev. 12:1; Gen. 37:9)
12 gates of the great high wall of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 12:12)
12 angels guarding the heavenly gates (Revelation 12:12)
12 apostles of the Lamb, part of the church and body of Christ (Revelation 12:14)
12 pearls or precious stones of different colors, on the 12 foundations (Rev.21:14, Rev. 19-21)
12 crops of fruit, continually producing wholesome and pleasant fruit (Revelation 22:2)
The mention of “twelve” appears in other areas of the New Testament as well.
Jesus first spoke in the Temple at 12 years of age (Luke 2:42, 49-52).
Jesus raised Jarius’ 12-year-old daughter from a death-like state (Mark 5:42).
The story of the loaves and fishes, providing 12 baskets of leftovers (Mat.14:19–20; John 6:13).
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Tertius did not cowrite the epistle with Paul. The style was to mention the co-authors in the front. I Thessalonians is written in the first person plural for the most part. There is no reason to read it as anything other than an epistle written from those three men.
Tertius wrote a note at the end to salute the church. Apparently, he really was just serving as a scribe, writing down Paul's narration.
I've heard people describe the role of apostles as the authors of scripture in the context of apologetics about the Bible. But this does not seem to be the main emphasis of their role in the Bible. Most of the 12 apostles did not write scripture other than to collectively send a few paragraphs based on some words James said at the council of Jerusalem. What they did do was preach the Gospel. Paul and Barnabas' ministry was heavy on what we might call 'church planting.' They also appointed elders. The argument 'with the canon complete, we no longer need such offices.' After the canon was complete, there were still many unreached cities, nations, and people-groups. So why would we not need men sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel to these people, to establish new churches, and to appoint elders?
I believe I was careful in my wording to point out that some of the positions you espouse could naturally lead to despising prophecy, without actually accusing you. If I have wrongly accused you, I apologize.
But if you do actually believe in prophecies, including the revelatory type, the type that could predict a famine, impart a spiritual gift, identify an individuals spiritual gift, or make manifest the secrets of one's heart, then why couldn't you consider that someone who regularly functions in this gift might actually minister in the role of prophet?
God is sovereign over spiritual gifts, just like He was in the time of the 12 apostles. But when you read I Corinthians and other scripture, do you really get the idea that believers did not 'specialize' in their gifts and ministries? I don't get that impression at all. And in your own church, is it the case that one brother is gifted to teach one week, but only one week, and never again? What abotu administration? Do people usually have that gift for only a few minutes and then lose it?
The Bible says to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. It appears that you are endorsing a doctrine not taught in scripture. THe Bible never teaches that once the word is confirmed with signs and wonders that it no longer needs to be confirmed again. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary to be found in scripture. After Jesus did miracles, confirming His message in one place, He did them in another place. After Jesus confirmed His ministry with signs and wonders, Peter confirmed the Gospel with signs and wonders. After Peter already confirmed the word with signs and wonders, Stephen still did signs and wonders. Then Philip did signs and wonders, even though the word had already been confirmed with signs and wonders. And then after that, Paul and Barnabas still did signs and wonders.
Which would have more of an impact in Paul's ministry. When he saw the lame man in Derbe who had faith to be healed, if he told the man to walk and he walked, or if he had just said, "Peter already confirmed the word with signs and wonders like people like you being healed. But me telling you about it or letting you read about it in this snippet of the upcoming book of Acts serves the exact same purpose as if you were to be healed right now, so you are not going to be healed."?
Looks like an artificial, made up conclusion to me.
It makes sense to avail ourselves of the diversity of gifts in the body. If someone gives good advice, it makes sense to go to that person. If someone is a teacher with deep doctrinal knowledge, it may make sene to take certain theological questions to him. If someone else is gifted in healing, it makes sense to go to that person for ministry for healing. Anyone can pray for healing. You don't have to go to a specific individual, but it is a reasonable thing to do so.
James says for the 'sick among you' to call for the elders of the church, but he also says to confess your sims to one another and pray for one another that ye may be healed. So we can get healed through anyone, but it is still appropriate to call the 'go to guys', elders, in this case. Sick people were brought to Peter and Paul on certain occasions.
It demonstrates that not all prophecy is in the Bible. I am not arguing that genuine prophecy would contradict the Bible. I don't see anyone on here arguing for that.
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miknik5
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Ok well now do you see we arent talking about the birth of the flesh but of the SPIRIT?
And in Paul's case he was born untimely meaning last and afterwards
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No, I am combatting some traditional ideas, granted mainly Protestant ideas. My ideas aren't particularly 'Roman Catholic', though my references to certain historical figures being referred to as 'apostles' might be something Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox would agree with. But some Protestant historians would claim those periods of church history. Lutherans might accept 500 AD Christianity.
RCC doctrine conflates the role of apostles with the role of the monarchical bishop or the bishop roles that evolved out of that. I believe in a plurality of elders.
Please go back and read the actual verse references in my posts which are based on extensive research (years ago.) Look up Acts 14:4 and 14:14, which refers to Paul and Barnabas as 'apostles.' Notice 'apostles', not 'disciples.'
Look at I Corinthians 4, where Paul refers to Himself and Apollos as 'apostles'-- not disciples. I have mentioned other references. It seems like you are just responding without doing the necessary research first.
Btw, yes I agree that 12 is a special number in the Bible, and the 12 apostles have a special role. But that does not negate the importance of other apostles like Paul and Barnabas, or any of the post-ascension apostles. We see that there are post-ascension apostles in Ephesians 4:11. The 12 apostles were appointed before the ascension.
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No, the word translated 'untimely' refers to the fact that like a premature baby he made it even though it would seem unlikely. The 'untimely' translation doesn't capture the usage of the original Greek word.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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when it talks about who
wrote the letter the singular is used. what role did silvanus and timothy play in writing this letter? the 'We' could be referring to all those who participate in the ministry, including the other apostles and silvanus and timothy.
unless you want to say that all those who church plant, evangelize, and decide who gets to be an elder of a church are apostles I don't see your point.
because they don't exist outside of people who claim they can and actually don't. we have plenty of those types.
indeed God is sovereign over gifts as he was in apostolic times and prophetic times. no one will have gifts of the Spirit apart from God choosing them for it. We have teachers, administrators, and evangelists. we have no healers, no one who speaks in tongues, no one who has been raised from the dead, and no one who has performed a miracle. I haven't seen anything like this happen in any of the churches i've gone to and i've been to some pretty charismatic churches who went out of there to try that stuff. I've had some people in church i went to pray over me they had visions about this or that but none of them really came true.
i agree, and this all works until we start talking about healing, raising people from the dead, tongues, and miracles. you'd think if the other gifts are so abundant like teaching and wisdom, then we would see healings and miracles all the time. alas, that's not the case, unless we're talking about a bunch of frauds claiming they do this stuff regularly. I'd love to see it as i believe it still happens and hear about places where it does here and there.
"upcoming book of acts". exactly my point. they didn't have the scriptures back then. the Word wasn't complete. they went on the word of those who preached to them and they had signs and wonders to confirm their ministry. if you're looking for a sign and a wonder, how about miracle of regeneration?
yes, people did bring sick people to the apostles who had healing ability from the Holy Spirit to be healed. all of the apostles of Christ had the ability to heal, even the ones who didn't write an epistle.
yes, having the elders pray that the LORD would heal them of their sickness is a good thing to do and is effective for the prayer in faith.
agreed, i'm just not seeing the relevance of such a point.
(deut 29:29)
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It seems to me you just want to deny the obvious because it doesn't fit into some preconceived framework. The three of them preached in Thessalonica. The three of them wrote a letter there after they left where they referred to 'we' and 'us' and called themselves apostles of Christ. If the three of them claimed to be writing the letter, why would you want to assume the 'we' who are writing the letter are not them? Do you believe I Thessalonians 1:1 is true?
No, why would God stop setting forth individuals in the church to do these things, when these ministries, at least apostles, pastors and teachers, are given until we come to the full measure of Christ?
I Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
If you have that attitude when you actually encounter prophecies (e.g. one that exposes the secrets of someone else's heart instead of your own) how can you say you are not despising prophesyings? From reading the Bible, you should believe such things exist.
What you are showing here is a lack of experience with these things. I've experienced the gift of prophecy quite a bit over the years, and some of it is quite obviously supernatural.
If you read back, one of the other posters and I were talking about how it is that one can go to one place, and someone prophecies some detail over you, and go elsewhere to another church, a totally different set of people and someone else prophecies the same thing. I've experienced that. Paul said that 'in every city' the Spirit testified to bonds and imprisonment that awaited him.
I heard a testimony about a woman who told of the prophetic word she gave to Ahok, before he became famous in Indonesia as the governor of Jakarta. High level government officials who are Christian are rare in Indonesia, and Chinese and Christian-- that was a formula for not going far at all in politics using human reasoning. My wife got a prophecy some time back that the Lord would begin to raise up Christian leaders. She was excited to hear about Ahok becoming governor.
This woman's testimony went like this. She told of meeting Ahok and of how the Lord told her he was a candidate for the leader of the country. She called him and he asked her to tell him what the Lord had speaking to her. She told him and he said she was the third person who told him this. He told of how the Lord had spoken to him to get out of business and go into politics, and his pathway from Bupati to Governor to president.
Ahok is governor of Jakarta now, being accused of blaspheming the Koran due to an edited video in which is was advising against listening to those who were arguing against voting for him using a verse out of it.
I've seen 'supernatural stuff' with prophecy and words of knowledge. Some of these things are extremely detailed. Those who have experienced the gift know it is not just some kind of urban legend.
And since it is the Spirit's right to distribute these gifts as He wills, you have no right to say that He will not give them today. The Bible says He gives them, but you are arguing that He doesn't, at least with certain gifts.
Who is 'we'? Your local church? As the 'church militant' on the earth, we have those who minister in healing, speaking in tongues, and raising the dead. I haven't witnessed it, but I have spoken with two people personal who may have been used to raise the dead, including my wife before I met her. She was riding a bus and it hit a man in Jakarta traffic between the Slipi redlight and what is now the Tol to Karawaci. She prayed for him in the name of Jesus (Yesus) and commanded his spirit to come back in Jesus' name and he exhaled and started breathing. I translated for an African preacher told of how a woman who'd died in the house he rented a room in was raised from the dead also.
I haven't seen anything like this happen in any of the churches i've gone to and i've been to some pretty charismatic churches who went out of there to try that stuff. I've had some people in church i went to pray over me they had visions about this or that but none of them really came true.
If you believe it happens, be careful labelling people frauds.
Why would you think the New Testament replaces the preaching of the apostles AND the miracles they did, instead of just their preaching. The gospel message was at that time oral, preached by the apostles. It doesn't make sense to say the New Testament replaced the miracles, too.
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ecclesiastical titles are one of the great distractions of the church. This is a good example of how because of the language we use there is a great deal of misunderstanding. There is a lot of debate as to whether these apostolic (another ecclesiastical word) roles are still in existence today.
When it boils down to it there are two camps one that claims there was a surge of giftings during the apostolic era to kick start the church and the other that says these giftings are still essential giftings of the church.
What is most important is not what tradition or history say about this but rather what what does the bible say and it essentially comes down to a single verse in 1 Corinthians 13:10. The context is talking about spiritual giftings and starts all the way back in Chapter 12 (where the op's question is from) To get a better understanding of "Camp 1's" position you have to go back to verse 8 and it all reads:
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."
The million dollar question is what is the perfect? If we figure that out then we can tell if the aforementioned gifts should still be practice. But there generally is a problem with context here and people need to understand the context is not the immediately mentioned gifts but everything since chapter 12. Paul is not singling out 3 gifts and saying these 3 will stop but is only using these 3 as an example and does not intent to disclude the other giftings. He does the same thing at the beginning of chapter 13 highlighting again 3 gifts and says that without love essentially they are nothing yet no one claims that Paul is suggesting all the unmentioned gifts are omitted and do not need love. He also does the same thing in chapter 12 comparing the giftings with body parts. Paul only uses a few body parts as an example and he does not need to exhaustively name off every body part because the point is made and is quite clear. This is the same of the above quoted passage, the point is made and should be quite clear that ALL spiritual gifts are "in part" and will pass away when the perfect comes.
So what is the perfect? For some reason the majority says its the completion of the Church or possibly the Canon of the bible and it is over so these gifts (only immediate 3 or the at least tongues) are no longer active. The issue with this conclusion is it's based on this one passage and this passage alone. There is no other scripture that speaks of this happening and IMO is a very irresponsible interpretation and would be extremely cryptic if Paul in fact intended this meaning. This is obviously reverse translating base on what the church sees to with what they read. There was a void in the giftings so let's make this passage mean something extremely cryptic that no one can biblically defend. It is embarrassing that such conclusions are so common place.
Why is Paul being so cryptic? Why does no other scripture support this? Why do you need a commentary to even come up with this idea? Could it be the perfect is something else? I think the natural read and by far the most agreeable within the rest of scripture is "the perfect" is Christ. When Christ returns the need for spiritual giftings will be no more and our impartialities will be replaced with new incorruptible bodies. Reading it this way there is no biblical support to show any spiritual gifting has passed away regardless what greek or latin words you want to title them.
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DamianWarS,
I wouldn't assume the majority say it is the completion of the church or the canon. I don't know of anyone who suggested the completion of the canon view before Jonathan Edwards. There were some arguing that the perfect had already come before John Calvin, because his commentary calls the idea foolish or stupid.
The Montanists may be the first ones we have record of in history who believed the perfect had come (with Montanus.) But the orthodox churches disagreed, seeing this as eschatological. Eusebius records than in a debate after Montanus died, the representative of the Montanists argued that Maximilla and Priscilla, Montanists cow-rkers, were prophetesses like Philip's daughters. The Christian pointed out that the Montanists did not have prophecy, but the church did, and the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. Maybe he was referring to I Corinthians 13.
he could also have been referring to I Corinthians 1, where it says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistently with Paul's teaching in the first chapter of the epistle.
I wouldn't assume the majority say it is the completion of the church or the canon. I don't know of anyone who suggested the completion of the canon view before Jonathan Edwards. There were some arguing that the perfect had already come before John Calvin, because his commentary calls the idea foolish or stupid.
The Montanists may be the first ones we have record of in history who believed the perfect had come (with Montanus.) But the orthodox churches disagreed, seeing this as eschatological. Eusebius records than in a debate after Montanus died, the representative of the Montanists argued that Maximilla and Priscilla, Montanists cow-rkers, were prophetesses like Philip's daughters. The Christian pointed out that the Montanists did not have prophecy, but the church did, and the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returned. Maybe he was referring to I Corinthians 13.
he could also have been referring to I Corinthians 1, where it says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We should interpret I Corinthians 13 consistently with Paul's teaching in the first chapter of the epistle.
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S.O.J.I.A.
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do you believe 1 thess 4:9, 13 to be true?
He didnt as they still happen. are you saying that we should call pastors, evangelists, and preachers apostles?
I do, i've just never seen it myself but I don't deny people's stories of it happening.
If a loved one of mine died some time in the near future, would I be able to get your wife to come raise that person from the dead?
you'll need to point me to where i said the works of the Spirit are an urban legend.
nope, didn't say this. Again.. i don't deny miracles, i deny designated miracle workers.
that's awesome! i'd love to experience that sometime. I believe it can happen and i believe it did happen for you.
don't worry, I only give the fraud label to people who actually are, such as those who participate in the cundalini cult shenanigans while calling these things the work of the Spirit. holy laughter, barking like a dog, violent convulsions, being "high" or "drunk" in the spirit. I actually have experienced the holy laughter stuff. this is why I also believe in demonic spirits.
john 6:29-30
john 14:11
matthew 11:23
john 15:24
miracles or 'works' have always been used to confirm the ministry of God's annointed. that's what they have always been for even in the OT where God sends moses to pharoah and tells him to perform works in order to confirm that moses was sent by God.
As i mentioned before, I have experienced a miracle of the Holy Spirit. It's called regeneration.
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miknik5
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Btw. They were NOT appointed until after THE SPIRIT was poured out
And that did not happen until after HE ascended
HE told them to wait for THE PROMISE then they would receive power
They did not go out to preach THE GOSPEL until after THE SPIRIT was poured out upon them
After HE ascended and gave gifts to men
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This occurred before the ascension,
Matthew 10
10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mark 3:14
And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach,
(NASB)
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miknik5
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They did not go out and do the work they were called to (which was preach the GOSPEL) after HE was crucified and until after HE ascended
They were frightened
CHRIST prepared them
For the coming PROMISE in HIS dialogue just before HIS CRUCIFIXION but they did not after HE was crucified go anywhere until they received power from in high
HE told them to wait until they received power
They could not do anything until they received THE PROMISE
For the HOLY SPIRIT had not yet been given because CHRIST had not yet returned to THE GLORY which HE had with THE FATHER before the world ever was
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miknik5
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Another question
Would you say that HIS FIRST CHOSEN and called are greater than those who come in untimely?
Yet THE RISEN LORD's
commission, first to them but the call to all, is to be what?
Would you say that HIS FIRST CHOSEN and called are greater than those who come in untimely?
Yet THE RISEN LORD's
commission, first to them but the call to all, is to be what?
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