Fear of the 'divine'.

yeshuaslavejeff

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If 'every sinner' should 'fear God', tell me, who do YOU know that is 'without sin'?
Rather:
Revelation 14:5
Revelation 14:5
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!


Psalm 32:2
Psalm 32:2King James Version (KJV)
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity,

and in whose spirit there is no guile.
 
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tucker58

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Divine Comedy ?

Based on my experience with "God", He does seem to have a sense of humor, but it always seems to lead to a learning experience and not to down fall or ridicule. Divine Comedy? Not so much. Jeff, I like your scripture quote Psalm 32:2 "Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity and in whose spirit there is no guile." Guile is the "kicker" when it comes to interacting with "God". For an entity that does not think like we do, guile does seem to put "God" in a bad mood :) .
 
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Stillicidia

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There is a heavy positive aspect when it comes to life and creation that people don't know about. There is seriousness, and there is Holiness, and also fun, comedy, and also secret loving purposes. This may stem from the reason we were created, especially with a will, is God wanted a family. There is also a positive aspect in God the Father's jealousy, because there is a good kind of jealousy. He is the embodiment of love, and even judgment is a redeeming thing. Dontchya know we are Gods? It is written in Psalms that we are made lesser than the Angels, but in fact they simply couldn't comprehend being greater than the Angels when they wrote it, and so we are greater, not lesser. Therefore even the severe seriousness of the Bible can be put into question, it isn't so serious that any joy be left out.
Let this be a mystery of the positive aspect.
 
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Uber Genius

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When reading through the Bible, something I have noticed that many seem to miss: in almost every 'encounter' of that which we label 'divine', those enduring the experience are described as being 'fearful'.

My own experience with God revealing Himself 'to me' was no different. The overwhelming sensation was not some form of ecstasy, but FEAR. It was 'terrifying'. Not painful. But kind of like being 'shocked' by electricity.

Someone that has simply 'used' electricity doesn't really have any comprehension of it's 'power' until being 'shocked' by it. But once one has been 'shocked' by it, their previous perception is not longer valid. Everyone I have ever known, once 'shocked' by electricity develop a 'fear' of it that is completely different than their perception previous to being 'shocked'.

It is this way with God so far as I'm concerned.

So what is this demonstration of 'ecstasy' that we often 'see' in the 'churches'? I have never experienced it. I have never 'felt' like I was 'on a drug' when praying to singing in a 'church'. Yet I have witnessed those with hands raised to the heavens in what appears to be a 'state of ecstasy'. Like they are in a 'trance' of sorts. What is this?

Not only have I never experienced it personally, I have never even 'read' about it in the Bible.

Every encounter with the "Divine" offered in the Bible is associated with 'dropping to one's knees in FEAR'. I don't recall anyone ever describing such an encounter as being 'overwhelmed' by pleasant sensations. Ecstasy or becoming 'trance-like' enveloped in a 'drug like' experience.

So what is it that we witness when we 'see' those that appear to be 'drugged' into an ecstatic state in the 'churches'?

I know this: the Bible describes 'Satan' as being 'sensual'. That means that he appeals to the 'senses' and obviously it would be an appealing to the senses in a 'pleasurable' manner. You know, like making to 'feel good'.

So is it possible that it is 'this' that is witnessed in the 'churches'. An entity 'other than God' that offers 'sensation' rather than 'fear'?

For if you read the Bible, you will find exactly what I'm talking bout 'over and over' again. Those that encounter the 'divine' are instantly filled with 'FEAR', not 'ecstasy'. They are so fearful they 'fall down upon their knees' with their faces and eyes to the 'ground'. They aren't 'looking up' with their hands in the air filled with a form of ecstasy. They are 'terrified' when in the presence of the 'divine'.

Just some thoughts about the 'truth' contained within the Bible versus what we witness in the 'churches'.

Blessings,

MEC
Since you describe yourself as a "seeker" I recommend focusing on whether the Christian claims are justified. If they are make a choice to follow or not.

How we experience God is a broad ranging topic and stating as some will suggest God can't work this way or it is counterfeit is based on a complex set of illicit premises (hidden assumptions) that themselves are not that self-evident.

I will tell you I have had both types of encounters listed above. Several times I was overwhelmed by God's presence to the point of being unable to move or speak. Joy, peace and otherworldly love were the key things I experienced.

The first time (36 years and 3 months ago) I had a visible glowing on my face (something I was completely unaware of at the time). I would laugh uncontrollably for the next 6 weeks several times per day, and something like words of knowledge started pouring out when I would pray for people.

My joy was infectious and poured out on my friends and family. Even those who denied my exerience were filled with a spirit of joy.

We probably don't want to paint God into a box the way. John MacArthur did mocking all Charasmatics the way he did with his Strangefire conference.

Sweeping generalizations and straw men are fallacies. I actually though MacArther and Piper were intellectually a lot stronger than to base their cases on fallacious appeals.

That said there is much bad teaching in the Pentacostal and Charsmatic churches, and not much oversight. Health and wealth doctrine popularized by Oral Roberts in the 1970s and word faith movement e.w. Kenyon (1920s-40s) helped continued a 185+ year tradition of anti-intellectualism in American evangelicalism.

Focus on center set of Christianity.

Avoid disputes about experience as people's experiences can't be shared or verified (experientially). These are private in nature and for all we know true.

Judge the fruit, not the experience. We have intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually immature people in every church (and that is just the pastoral staff), don't mistake immaturity for heresy as Piper and MacArthur have done.

Look for passion for the lost. Care for the oppressed. Addiction for worshipping God, outside of church. Look for study of the word in a consistent exegetical way. Against a those things there is no law.

I pray in tongues more than you all, but I would rather utter one word of prophecy...

Our these expressions edifying those around them?

If you are a "seeker" then make a choice. Get involved with a place that teaches the scriptures in context. Don't spend any time on this issues until you have put into place the foundational teachings of who Christ is and what his work on the cross is about. Then sanctification, and evangelism. Get involved in prison ministry or feeding the poor.

This issue divides based on a false premise that everything Godmhas ever done with man must be recorded in scripture. It is a throwback to the enlightment and now worthy of attention until you are far down the Christian Disciple road. IMO
 
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Hillsage

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People always fear what they 'do not know'. The better they get 'to know', the less fearful they are. When the supernatural becomes more 'natural' trust builds and fear diminishes.

Jesus is my pattern son, and he never was scared of 'our father which art in heaven'. I'm not saying I've arrived at that goal, but at least I've left where too many seem to abide.
 
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Hillsage

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Question:

I have sincerely sought the 'truth' for many many years now.

When I have visited 'churches', each does things 'differently'.

How is that? How are two 'churches' following the 'truth' yet doing it in completely 'different ways'?

If there is only 'one truth', if God desires that we serve Him in a 'particular way', how do different people serve Him 'differently' in 'truth'?

You see, this makes absolutely 'no sense'. We cannot each follow a 'different path' and follow 'the path'. The path is THE path. Only one. Yet there are many 'different paths' that lead to destruction. Only ONE path that leads to 'truth'.

So, if the Holy Spirit dwells with me, isn't it the 'same Holy Spirit' that would dwell in any or everyone else? And if it is the 'same' how does it reveal a 'different understanding' to different people? Impossible. What it reveals to one would be the same that it reveals to another. While it may reveal more or something deeper to one than another, whatever it reveals, if it is the 'truth' would have to be 'the same truth'.

Blessings,

MEC
If 'truth' is to be summarized as 'written doctrine', it will never be 'fully' found in any church. But when it is defined by a 'living action'...love and hate are pretty easy to discern IMO.
 
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tucker58

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No, I am not. I am challenging people to question whether they TRULY KNOW God exists or not. And it is my experience that MOST that 'say' they 'know' God exists really don't. They say it, but they don't really 'show it'.

And then there is this: I have often heard pastors say that we SHOULD NOT 'challenge God'. That we should simply follow in a sort 'blind faith'. We are suppose to 'just believe'.

I know this: I challenged God and He took me up on my challenge. So I have absolutely NO doubts of God's existence.

Yet I have talked to 'church leaders' who have outright indicated that what they 'did' was 'just a job' and they weren't SURE if God exists or not. They basically say that their HOPE lay in the 'idea' of God, but they do not KNOW God exists.

If you have misinterpreted my words to mean that I am somehow discouraging 'faith', you are wrong. I am ENCOURAGING it. But I would suggest that one place their faith in the TRUTH. For placing one's faith in anything but is false faith or useless faith.

But here is what I am REALLY offering: Every encounter I have read about in the Bible, where any man actually ENCOUNTERED God, they were TERRIFIED.

Yet now days we see people that 'say' that they 'know' God but act like they are on DOPE when they gather to worship. They 'talk' about God like he's a stuffed animal or something.

Yet my encounter was basically 'the same' as every recorded instance in the Bible.

So is God REALLY that 'fickle'? Or is it the 'PEOPLE' that are 'pretending' and 'acting' like God has revealed Himself to THEM 'differently' than everyone else in the Bible, and my experience as well?

Regardless of one's 'interpretation' of WHO God is, it is practically IMPOSSIBLE for me to fathom anyone experiencing what I experienced and not being TERRIFIED. I'm a pretty 'tough' hombrey. I was absolutely and overwhelmingly TERRIFIED. Fortunately for me it only lasted a matter of seconds. But in that 'time' I didn't get USE to it. It happened and then it was over. But the entire time it was taking place, I was terrified.

Now, would God REALLY reveal Himself to someone without their being terrified? If EVERYONE in the Bible was terrified upon God revealing Himself to them, isn't that a pretty GOOD indication that EVERYONE would experience the SAME sensation of 'terror'?

So my point is THIS: perhaps, most that 'act like they are on dope' when praying or singing or supposedly 'talking to God', don't really KNOW God. They are just basically 'brainwashing themselves' into a false sense of 'true faith'. They are basically 'playing the game' that they have witnessed other playing and then mimicking that which they find appealing.

And if that is the case, I am here to offer witness that God IS REAL. He exists in REALITY. But when He revealed Himself to me, it was NOT an ecstatic moment of BLISS. But a sensation that was terrifying. Overwhelming. Both physically and MENTALLY. I thought I was having a stroke or something. It was not 'painful', but it was the most INTENSE sensation I have ever experienced. And it was TERRIFYING'. Literally.

And then when I read the Bible's examples of those that have actually encountered God, they too seem to have experienced the 'same thing' I did. So that is evidence enough for me to come to certain conclusions.

If your faith is misplaced, then perhaps your faith NEEDS to be 'shaken up'. For 'false faith' can accomplish nothing that those that have a REASON to have faith are ''hoping'' for.

I can assure every one ready this: God is REAL. He exists. He is there, where ever 'there is'.

I can also offer witness and testimony that when God revealed Himself to ME: I was terrified. Not because I CHOSE to be terrified, it was what my body and mind experienced that brought about the terror. Experiencing the POWER that was capable of placing me in such a 'state' was terrifying.

Blessings,

MEC

Sorry about being so late coming back to you, my computer broke and it took me a while to get a new one. Imagician, I have to agree with what you are saying. I also had the same experience that you did. And for a fact I couldn't worship God when He showed His presence to me because to me God shouldn't be scary. But through Lord Jesus I now understand God and God as the Father of Lord Jesus "is" a loving God and a God that I can gladly worship.
 
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sdowney717

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If 'every sinner' should 'fear God', tell me, who do YOU know that is 'without sin'?

Blessings,

MEC
There are none without sin, for all have sinned.


1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 3 is a good study on salvation for those IN Christ, all of whom shall be made alive. This is not teaching universal salvation of all people, salvation is only for all those who are in Christ.

All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”


1 Thessalonians 1:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

2 Corinthians 5:6
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body,
according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
 
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tucker58

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It is my FIRM belief, that if there is any TRUE 'logic', then that is EXACTLY what God IS. Truth would be LOGIC. Not the 'logic of men', but the 'logic of God'.

Blessings,

MEC

Well Imagican my old dude :) , If there is any "true" logic, then that is "exactly" what God "is". What you have presented here is an interesting piece of logic. Clearly an "if this", "then that" statement. From there you make the assumption that "truth would be logic" and that there are two types of logic, "the logic of men" and "the logic of God" with the assumption that these two types of logic are different and that God's logic is the actual "truth". And you have presented that the logic line that you have presented is your "firm" belief.

Humm? And in post #44 you make the statement that if we follow "blind faith" we become "lost". And this is with the understanding that "blind faith" in Christ Jesus is one of the foundations of the Christian faith.

So Imagician my first question is, "Why does God have to be "logical" in any way shape or form?" And when you met God and were frightened, "Were you frightened because God isn't logical?" Lord Jesus is "logical", that is a given and another reason why He is a go between between us and God. But His Father that art in Heaven doesn't have to be. And as evidence, just for fun, "If God was logical, then Lord Jesus wouldn't have been necessary." Along with this concept is that God is a creative being that has a purely creative mind that at its core there exists no logic. So Imagician sir, when you as a logic oriented mind meets God with a pure creative mind, you experience "fear". And you experience this "fear" because at the foundation core of God's mind there is "no" logic, which is something that a mind based on logic can not deal with because it sees a purely creative mind as insanity, which it actually isn't. It is just a mind that is "on" with an infinite number of equal possibilities that are not being judged.
 
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tucker58

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@Imagician

Sir you and I are old dudes and you are the only person that I have ever met that has had some of the same experiences that I have had. I too found God terrifying, that was around forty years ago for the first time. I am now in the constant state that you have described as your one and only experience and I have been in this state continuously for about fifteen years now. Not that it is any big deal, it is just something that I am doing.

So where do we go from here? Humm? Being in the presence of the Father of Lord Jesus is no longer terrifying to me. And what I have found is that if you do not mess with Him, He is pretty easy to get along with. Along with that I always maintain a humble quiet mind in His presence. How does God think? He doesn't think, He doesn't have to. He just is.

QUOTE="Imagican, post: 70441678, member: 137539"]you don't really KNOW 'anything'. You are simply operating upon 'bling faith' through what you have COME to believe that you don't REALLY 'know'. That is my opinion and based upon your own words. At best, your words appear to me to merely 'guesses' without any genuine KNOWLEDGE of the 'truth'. What I have offered is as factual as I am able to offer. It is as honest as I am capable of speaking. Can you say the same about what you have concluded? Are you able to comprehend the 'light' when you see it? Or are you of the persuasion to simply deny that which you don't really understand?[/QUOTE

Imagician, when it comes to God the more you try to understand the less you understand. The reason for this is, is because your attempt to understand God is based on what you know. To truly understand God you have to forget everything that you know and start over. God is not of this world and He is not like we are. No information of this world can lead to understanding God. That is why the only way one can understand God is through Lord Jesus because He is not of this world either and through Him you learn to forget everything you know and start over.

QUOTE="Imagican, post: 70441678, member: 137539"]Or are you of the persuasion to simply deny that which you don't really understand?[/QUOTE

Maybe not :)
 
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tucker58

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@Imagician and anybody else that would like to join in :)

And again humm? I don't think that I ever said that you can not know God. Otherwise Lord Jesus would not have said that the only way one can know the Father is through Him which I find based on my life long experience a true statement. And you are saying that I am just guessing about stuff and that you are the only one that knows. So that is the absolute in this discussion and a reoccurring theme. And again humm :) ?

QUOTE="Imagican, post: 70445458, member: 137539"]I opened this thread to point out what I have observed.

In the 'churches', I have MOST often witnessed people standing with hands stretched to the sky, 'acting' like they are in some kind of 'drug induced trance'. Acting as if they are experiencing some sort of emotional ecstasy.

I've never experienced this. When I see it it reminds me of 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' or something. Like people BRAINWASHED into a false sense of security. I have NOT found such behavior MENTIONED in the Bible. In fact, much of what the Bible DOES offer would seem to warn us AGAINST such behavior.[/QUOTE


I think that you are confusing things here a bit Imagician. You are confusing experiencing God with experiencing the Holy Spirit/the Holy Breath or the presence of Lord Jesus. These two/three experiences are actually two/three different experiences. The reason that you have never experienced the ecstasy is because you have never experienced the cleansing sensation of the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath. And it would be my "guess" :) that you have never held Lord Jesus' hand while you were in the presence of God. Because if you had you would not have experienced a feeling of fear. You would have felt God's overwhelming love. I do not deny that you have experienced God, but it seems that you do not know the experience of God in the presence of Lord Jesus or that of the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath.

Imagician, you seem to be approaching God as the Jewish folks did in the Old Testament. You do not seem to be approaching God through the gift of our Lord and Savior and His gift of the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath. Criticizing Christians because of what they experience in the presence of their Lord and Savior and His gift of the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath because you have never experienced it seems to be a bit over the top for one as old and wise as you. And what is funny Imagician :) is that when the Holy Spirit descended from Heaven and filled the disciples, the non Christian Jewish folks said the same thing that you are saying. They said, "Those guys are drunk."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I see nothing SOBER nor peaceful about people appearing to be STONED while supposedly in the presence of 'their God'.

Correct.
That observation may be perfectly accurate,
as
the true assembly of believers abiding in Y'SHUA are orderly,
truthfully JOYOUS , and PEACE - FULL, and RIGHTEOUS, ongoing, continually, as in Scripture....
even 'young' new fresh assemblies taught right,
as well as older more mature with more experience assemblies
when they can be found.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Amein. It is so. (as it is written; verified in line with YHWH'S WORD)
The assembly of ecclesia set apart by YHWH
live today as they did written in Scripture.
Scripture is THE TEST. THE STANDARD, ACCORDING TO YHWH.


But once God revealed Himself to me, and I became capable of accepting what had been revealed, the confusion 'went away'.

Now, my major source of confusion is what I have witnessed in the 'churches'.
So the only thing I believe that I'm confused about are the 'churches' all claiming to be following the SAME Holy Spirit yet behaving in diverse manner. All the 'churches of the Saints' should be behaving 'in the church' in the SAME manner if they are being LED by the SAME 'Holy Spirit'.
 
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tucker58

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Confused? I don't 'think' so. I was 'confused' about the existence of God 'before' He revealed Himself to me. I was confused when I didn't know how to 'deal' with the revelation.

But once God revealed Himself to me, and I became capable of accepting what had been revealed, the confusion 'went away'.

Now, my major source of confusion is what I have witnessed in the 'churches'.

Speaking in tongues. Behavior that resembles some form of 'delusion'. This 'ecstatic' behavior I have described. People running up and down the isles as if they are 'crazy'. Dancing like one is at a 'rock concert'. These are the 'things' that I find confusing.

Look. It's pretty obvious that the Holy Spirit would be the SAME Holy Spirit. One person wouldn't be led by the Holy Spirit to 'act' one way, and another be led by the Holy Spirit to 'act' another. THE Holy Spirit would LEAD ALL to do the 'same things'.

While the 'gifts' delivered by the Holy Spirit might vary, the MANNER in which the Holy Spirit guides those it influences to BEHAVE would be the SAME behavior in ALL that were influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Yet we see that among members of DIFFERENT 'churches' their behavior varies TREMENDOUSLY.

That makes NO sense. There is NO 'different Holy Spirit' in EACH 'church'...............is there? And if so, then it cannot be THE Holy Spirit. For THE Holy Spirit would be the SAME in each 'church'.

So the only thing I believe that I'm confused about are the 'churches' all claiming to be following the SAME Holy Spirit yet behaving in diverse manner. All the 'churches of the Saints' should be behaving 'in the church' in the SAME manner if they are being LED by the SAME 'Holy Spirit'.

Blessings,

MEC

:) Well Imagician my friend, and I mean that honestly and I do enjoy our conversations, I have to agree with you. I have experienced the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath and its gifts and I have seen and felt it in others. So I am familiar with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath and do have some experience with it. What I find interesting is that there seems to a few of the charismatic Christian religious leaders that use the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath to further their own agenda. I have seen it in quite a few of the send us money television evangelist ministers. And what is funny is that they know that a sin against the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath is the one sin that can never be forgiven.

With that said, back to what you are presenting as an observation and logic line. "Is everybody following the SAME Holy Spirit?" I am an empath and I was born that way. I can see and feel the energy that living things give off/radiate. Those that are filled with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath or are experiencing being filled, shall we say, give off a particular energy signature that is really hard to miss. The first thing that you see and feel is a lot of heart energy and the second thing you see and feel is a lot of golden light life energy that comes from where the nose and forehead meet. And there are some other hard to explain energy qualities that they give off/radiate that make their energy signature a bit different than the energy/light that some of the so called "beautiful people" give off/radiate.

Ok the so called charismatic churches? Most of the black Baptist churches are Spirit filled and if there was one around where I live I would go to it. The others that I have been to usually have members (as most all churches do, some more than others) that are Spirit filled and members that are just acting their version of being Spirit filled. And usually, but not always, the ones that are acting their version of being Spirit filled are the ones that you find, shall we say "not real". Is being Spirit filled the same for everybody? Energy signature wise it is, but how a person is guided to show outwardly actions by the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath can be different. And a person who is feeling the Spirit filled phenomenon for the first time can be really overwhelmed by the experience and they can appear to be very intoxicated :) . In my case I just sat and cried I was so over whelmed with feelings of love and life and the beauty of God. You and medical science would have thought that I was having a total mental breakdown :) . And who knows, you might have been right because the experience does change you.

Like you Imagician I do not feel comfortable about going to those churches because I have a tendency to be conservative, but at the same time I do not judge them because everybody is doing the best that they know how to do. Except of course those that are using the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath to manipulate others for personal gain. Those folks I do have a tendency to judge :) . I know that I shouldn't, but they really upset me.
 
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tucker58

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QUOTE="Imagican, post: 70456506, member: 137539"]And I wasn't READY for the experience. I asked in all honesty. But I had never even began to contemplate what the 'answer' might require. What the 'effects' of the answer might be. I walked into it in utter innocence and utter ignorance. I was NOT READY for what was revealed. I can't imagine ANYONE being 'ready'. Going from 'guessing to knowing' isn't an EASY transformation.[/QUOTE

Imagician, I had your experience, the same experience, when I was five years old with my first prayer to God. The same exact experience. My family was not religious and I did not even know about God or Jesus. My mother always left the door to my bedroom open a little so that the hall light gave some light to my bedroom. For some reason one night she closed it and I threw a fit because I was afraid of the dark. She laughed and told me to pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ and He would take away my fear of the dark. I did and I experienced something that I would describe exactly as you describe your experience. And I was never afraid of the dark again. That was sixty-one years ago. My mother had been angry at God for years and what she told me to do was a joke on God that changed my life from that moment on.

And if you had continued reading in Acts chapter Two you would have found verse thirteen. "But others were mocking and saying, "They are drunk on new wine."

QUOTE="Imagican, post: 70453359, member: 137539"]Now what would lead you to attempt deception in such a manner?[/QUOTE

I magician, you are an interesting study as a personality and if what I say begins to make sense, then you are going to say something "cutting" and wander off. Which is your right as a participant of this message board. But at the same time it is also my right to dispute in a civilized way "some" of the things that you are presenting as absolutes (or in some cases your opinion) in Controversial Theology and under the rules of this forum.

My point is that there are two different experiences and that you are confusing these two experiences. There is the experience that both you and I had with our first meeting God and there is the separate experience with being filled with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath. They are not the same experience. Because you have never experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath you are critical about that experience in others. I have had both experiences so I have some understanding of both experiences so I am inclined to "not" be critical of or with others that have had either of or both of those experiences. And I am inclined to argue on the side of those that have had one or both of these experiences.

And after experiencing being filled with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath a few times, I am inclined to be afraid of being filled with the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath :) because it gives you gifts that give you "power" and if one were to "use" the power of those gifts for personal gain or because you are angry for some reason, a sin against the Holy Spirit/Holy Breath is a sin that can never be forgiven. And this is some thing that I do not take lightly.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
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I can't even imagine being afraid of the fullness of joy and peace and righteousness that the believers in ACTS, Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, etc experienced CONTINUALLY ....
that YHWH blesses us with TODAY CONTINUALLY .....
with every aspect of every word that is written in the NEW TESTAMENT
being TRUTH , TODAY .....
 
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