CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
My point is that in the account I mentioned, the prophet describes a host of things God "does" Physically and Visibly in Battle.

IF you are insisting that John in the Revelation does NOT describe a Host of things Christ "Does" Physically and Visibly in battle, then I believe you are the delusional one.

ah...the question being asked is if they are the same battle...I see nothing that would suggest they are. Please show how you think they are...but since I keep asking and you offer nothing I'm not holding my breath.

Well Lets look at the Cloud coming of Christ that every eye would see (Revelation 1:7)
Feel free to apply those rules as you see fit:

That very cloud coming of Rev 1:7 is depicted fully in Revelation 14:14-20 -- the passage shows us unquestionably an event that takes place in the UNSEEN heavenly realms. Do you see this?

Next, as I keep reminding you but you reject "because you say so" Yahweh came many, many times -- Jesus' coming is a mirror action, proving his equality and divinity with Yahweh. Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece (Zechariah 9:13-14); Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2); Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10); Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5); Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8). So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).

I am first off very tired of people trying to claim that I offer nothing more than "cause I say so" when clearly I have done much more...this argument is an out and out lie and shows how desperate you are to try to win an argument you can't....now, back to task...first, we are looking for everything in the prophecy. As previously discussed, this is important. Second, if you read and study Rev. you see that there is a distinction made between God and Jesus. Now where they are one and the same they present themselves different at different times. So where the text you want to present says God and Rev. says Jesus, there is a discrepancy in the prophecy that cannot be reconciled. It is an important difference...now the only one you present that is truly a "mirror" comes from Matthew 21:40-45 which is a parable and not an actual historic event....now...what else do you want to talk about?

Go ahead and show us where I'm wrong in my assertions.
Because you say so?

just showed you with much more than "cause I say so" but if you really need me to quote Rev. in a post I can, it would be much easier if you just read it for yourself.

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
.now the only one you present that is truly a "mirror" comes from Matthew 21:40-45 which is a parable and not an actual historic event...

Just so I'm clear on your position, are you saying this:

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Never happened, or never will?

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

My Contention.
Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Sam 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ez 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
Just so I'm clear on your position, are you saying this:

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Never happened, or never will?

??????????????????? I was pretty clear why ask me something unrelated to what i said??

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
My Contention.
Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Sam 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ez 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

--COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

--TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

--AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.

the problem is that I showed you where the claim you made did not match the prophecy and you asked me an unrelated question which tells me you are not listening and thus posting is just a colossal waste of my time which is very sad because I think we could learn a lot from one another if you were willing to do more than just spout your opinion over and over as if no one else had anything to offer.

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
??????????????????? I was pretty clear why ask me something unrelated to what i said??

You said Matt 21:40-45 is not describing a real event that takes place.
I find that untenable, but just wanted to make sure i understood you correctly.

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
ah...the question being asked is if they are the same battle...I see nothing that would suggest they are. Please show how you think they are...but since I keep asking and you offer nothing I'm not holding my breath.

Please show me where I even remotely suggested they are the same Battle?

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
the problem is that I showed you where the claim you made did not match the prophecy and you asked me an unrelated question which tells me you are not listening and thus posting is just a colossal waste of my time which is very sad because I think we could learn a lot from one another if you were willing to do more than just spout your opinion over and over as if no one else had anything to offer.

The Problem, As I see it, is you flat out reject the Scriptural precedent I cite for interpreting apocalytic language metaphorically

You have thusfar shown no compelling, scripturally based reason why you personally interpret THESE passages as metaphor...

Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

While you interpret THIS passage as Literal:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I'm all ears.
Teach me.

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
You said Matt 21:40-45 is not describing a real event that takes place.
I find that untenable, but just wanted to make sure i understood you correctly.

verse 33 starts the whole context of verse 40-45 and begins with " “Listen to another parable" we don't even need to know common literary rules to know that this is a parable...now we do need to know what a parable is....do you need me to define it for you or can you look it up in the dictionary for yourself?

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
Please show me where I even remotely suggested they are the same Battle?

really...follow your own comments, I am not here to babysit you. Okay, I apologize, that was a bit snarky...it's just you can't even follow your own comments and then expect me to go on in an endless drama with you over this issue. You failed to evidence your claim...get over it and move on.

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
The Problem, As I see it, is you flat out reject the Scriptural precedent I cite for interpreting apocalytic language metaphorically

some prophecy is metaphoric and some is not, that my dear was agreed to and stated way way way long ago only for you to accuse me here of not getting it...this is why I got snarky in the above post, cause you can't even follow the discussion you are in.

You have thusfar shown no compelling, scripturally based reason why you personally interpret THESE passages as metaphor...

honey...the only one I addressed specifically was Matt 21 and I told you it was not history because it says right there in the context it is a parable....

Ezekiel 32:7-8
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 13:10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

While you interpret THIS passage as Literal:

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I'm all ears.
Teach me.

see above...your turning my comments into something opposite of what I stated and pretend that is okay...it isn't okay according to forum rules. According to forum rules that is flaming. I am of the personal belief that all prophecy has a literal and figurative meaning or spiritual if you will...as such your claim and accusation of me is simply nothing more than a lie and I have done nothing to hide my understanding so don't try that song and dance to get out of the hole you have dug for yourself.

Straightshot · Nov 16, 2016

The Lord's Word is to be taken literally unless obviously symbolic

And the serious student of the Bible knows that the literal meanings of all symbolism can be found either within the context of the verses given or in other related scripture

The Lord is not a God of confusion and those who play with His Word are to be suspects of the art of deception

Dwells · Nov 16, 2016

In 2005 the papyrus 115, which is the earliest known record of the portion of Revelation talking about " the number of the beast", states that the number is 616....hope that doesn't mess up your theory. :wave:

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

Dwells said:
In 2005 the papyrus 115, which is the earliest known record of the portion of Revelation talking about " the number of the beast", states that the number is 616....hope that doesn't mess up your theory.

don't know who you are directing this to but it doesn't affect my theory at all. I am interested however, can you site where the information on this is found...iows' evidence your claim.

Dwells · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
don't know who you are directing this to but it doesn't affect my theory at all. I am interested however, can you site where the information on this is found...iows' evidence your claim.

Well you can look it up but here's wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

Dwells said:
Well you can look it up but here's wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115

thanks, I'll look it over when I have time.

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
verse 33 starts the whole context of verse 40-45 and begins with " “Listen to another parable" we don't even need to know common literary rules to know that this is a parable...now we do need to know what a parable is....do you need me to define it for you or can you look it up in the dictionary for yourself?

Oh I know what a parable is.
My question to yo you is what truth do you believe Jesus is attempting to teach the the chief priests and Pharisees in the parable?

Here's my answer:

There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.

This section depicts the Entire Administration of the Law and the Prophets using the metaphor of a Vineyard & Servants to illustrate a deeper truth & Moral lesson.

37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

This section depicts the Incarnation of Christ and what the Chief Priests and pharisees were about to do to him

So far so good?
Good.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

A very important verse here.
This depicts some type of "Coming of Lord" in vengeance and Judgement upon those very Pharisees and Priests, Removing the Kingdom from them and giving it to another Nation..

Jesus then brings it all home, doubling down on that AFTER he finished the Parable, explaining TO THEM that THEY were the Subject of the parable and that THEY were the ones facing this judgement in THEIR day.

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

And this was something THEY understood to be about THEM

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

This Parable was a warning to those people in that day that THEY were about to lose a Kingdom in their generation that their people had been stewarding for 1500 years, and the Mechanism by which they were about to lose it was by "The Coming of the Lord".

Now, one only needs to Look at Jerusalem and look for the Pharisees, Saducees and Chief Priests, look for the Temple, look for an operational Mosaic Theocracy uninterrupted in its administration for the past 2000 years.

If they are not to be found, we can conclude with certainty that the Lord of the Vineyard came on time, as promised, Violently removed the Kingdom from them, and leased it to another nation which is still bringing its fruits even today.

Pretty simple really.

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
really...follow your own comments, I am not here to babysit you. Okay, I apologize, that was a bit snarky...it's just you can't even follow your own comments and then expect me to go on in an endless drama with you over this issue. You failed to evidence your claim...get over it and move on.

I'm not your nanny either.....If you are going to accuse me of making a certain statement or inference, the onus is on you to demonstrate where I said or implied it.

You implied that I claimed the Battle Between King David and Saul is the Same Battle depicted in the Revelation.
I never said nor implied anything of the sort.

You are free to produce any quote of mine that you believe demonstrates otherwise..

parousia70 · Nov 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
some prophecy is metaphoric and some is not, that my dear was agreed to and stated way way way long ago only for you to accuse me here of not getting it...this is why I got snarky in the above post, cause you can't even follow the discussion you are in. honey...the only one I addressed specifically was Matt 21 and I told you it was not history because it says right there in the context it is a parable....

Addressed above

I am of the personal belief that all prophecy has a literal and figurative meaning or spiritual if you will...as such your claim and accusation of me is simply nothing more than a lie and I have done nothing to hide my understanding so don't try that song and dance to get out of the hole you have dug for yourself.

You use a lot of words. But you never seem to directly address any of the scripture I cite.
You never seem to offer an alternative interpretation to mine.

I suppose we could start with Matt 21:33-45?

What truth do you believe Jesus is teaching in the parable?

And specifically what do you believe Jesus meant by "When the owner of the Vineyard Comes He will destroy those wicked men and lease His vineyard to another nation?"

What does that mean to you?
Does that spiritual truth have a temporal counterpart to it?

razzelflabben · Nov 16, 2016

parousia70 said:
Oh I know what a parable is.
My question to yo you is what truth do you believe Jesus is attempting to teach the the chief priests and Pharisees in the parable?

unless you want to claim that the point of the parable is that the second coming has already come that question is irrelevant to the topic and thus off topic...

Here's my answer:

There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.

This section depicts the Entire Administration of the Law and the Prophets using the metaphor of a Vineyard & Servants to illustrate a deeper truth & Moral lesson.

37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

This section depicts the Incarnation of Christ and what the Chief Priests and pharisees were about to do to him

So far so good?
Good.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

A very important verse here.
This depicts some type of "Coming of Lord" in vengeance and Judgement upon those very Pharisees and Priests, Removing the Kingdom from them and giving it to another Nation..

Jesus then brings it all home, doubling down on that AFTER he finished the Parable, explaining TO THEM that THEY were the Subject of the parable and that THEY were the ones facing this judgement in THEIR day.

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

And this was something THEY understood to be about THEM

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

This Parable was a warning to those people in that day that THEY were about to lose a Kingdom in their generation that their people had been stewarding from 1500 years, and the Mechanism by which they were about to lose it was by "The Coming of the Lord".

Pretty simple really.

Not exactly the meaning but as I said unless your claim is that the parable is telling them it already happened it is off topic and since your explanation is not that it means it already happened your off topic again.

CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

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