Can Michael be the restrainer?

Postvieww · Nov 4, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
So the very premise of the thread is faulty to start with.

It appears to be very common for many to comment on any thread on this forum and declare their disagreement with any point raised. It is entirely another matter to show why or make a case for that disagreement.

If the entire premise of this thread is faulty and you feel it is your duty to point that out, it is equally your duty to at least try to show why. This is a forum of discussion and debate and could be a place for all of us to learn from each other but most times it is just a place for some to declare they are right or others are wrong . I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me on any topic if they can clearly state why, if they can’t or won’t I just consider their statements irrelevant.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 4, 2016

This morning in the last 15 minutes this has been a common theme/ message for several threads:

"So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘Youd]">[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”"

John 3:27
KJ21
John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing, unless it be given him from Heaven.
ASV
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.
AMP
John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God].
AMPC
John answered, A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing, he can take unto himself nothing] except as it has been granted to him from heaven. [A man must be content to receive the gift which is given him from heaven; there is no other source.]

" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
Y'SHUA the GOOD SHEPHERD KNOWS PERFECT. AND Reveals Perfect. And Simple. TRUTH.
Perfect HARMONY COMPLETE and WHOLE.
Never any contradiction with HIS WORD.

Postvieww · Nov 4, 2016

Straightshot said:
"Can you support this with a scriptural argument, or is this just your opinion?"

Daniel
10:10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

10:15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

10:16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

10:19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Daniel
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Thessalonians
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Michael's mission is to stand for Israel, past and present, and this archangel will be involved with the casting of Satan and his fallen angels to the earth and baring them from access to heaven during the coming tribulation

So he is not the restraining force that prevents Satan from operating in the open during the coming tribulation .... the restrainer against Satan is always the Lord's holy spirit

Only the Lord has the power to constrain the devil from destroying humanity and the earth

Satan has tried many times to completely deceive and destroy humanity and has always failed because the Lord has him on a tether

When the tribulation comes, the Lord will lift His restraint, stand aside, and will let the devil have his way for a short period .... if not shortened, Satan would succeed in his ambition

So because the earth dwellers at the time will have refused to believe the truth about the Lord, He will give them the devil in order to punish them for their intransigence [Revelation 12] .... then He will turn on Satan and restrain him fully in the abyss for 1000 years so that he cannot deceive the mortals of His millennial kingdom [Revelation 20:1-3]

Thanks for at least stating a position on this topic. You use the same scriptures that I used to make my point, to make your own.

So we have come to different conclusions.

Here is why I disagree. You said; “Michael's mission is to stand for Israel, past and present, and this archangel will be involved with the casting of Satan and his fallen angels to the earth and baring them from access to heaven during the coming tribulation”

I agree with that statement.

Then you said:

“ So he is not the restraining force that prevents Satan from operating in the open during the coming tribulation .... the restrainer against Satan is always the Lord's holy spirit”

This is your opinion not backed or supported by the scriptures you quoted. What scripture backs the statement “the restrainer against Satan is always the Lord's holy spirit” ?

The next statement is also not backed by the scripture you quoted.

“Only the Lord has the power to constrain the devil from destroying humanity and the earth”

My point is Michael has the power to accomplish whatever mission the Lord assigns him to carry out. The scriptures I provided show that. From combating and defeating a fallen angel Daniel to casting satan out of heaven along with his entire entourage and restraining satan for 1000 years from deceiving or “destroying humanity”. Rev.20 alone proves it is not “always the Holy Spirit” that constrains the devil. It is my opinion that he can do whatever task the Lord gives him. Simply stating only the Lord can do it without any thing to support it is not proof. I have stated all along on this forum I believe Michael “COULD” be the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians not emphatically that he was. But I still maintain there is no real scriptural evidence it is the Holy Spirit.

I understand you disagree, no problem, but simply saying God has all power, which he does , will not resolve this issue. We may just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Straightshot · Nov 4, 2016

So tell the forum what is your point in all of this effort to prove that Michael is the one who restrains

I don't Michael named in the following

2 Thessalonians
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

It appears to me that those Paul addresses those who already knew what restrains

The stand off presented appears to be between The Lord and Satan .... not Michael

So I believe that it is the holy spirit and not Michael that restrains, steps aside, and also will consume

Postvieww · Nov 7, 2016

Straightshot said:
So tell the forum what is your point in all of this effort to prove that Michael is the one who restrains

I don't Michael named in the following

2 Thessalonians
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

It appears to me that those Paul addresses those who already knew what restrains

The stand off presented appears to be between The Lord and Satan .... not Michael

So I believe that it is the holy spirit and not Michael that restrains, steps aside, and also will consume

Straightshot Said:

So tell the forum what is your point in all of this effort to prove that Michael is the one who restrains

It is a valid topic for this forum and has great implications as to the interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2. Also I and others find it very interesting.

I don't Michael named in the following

2 Thessalonians

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Nor do you find the Holy Spirit or Church named.

It appears to me that those Paul addresses those who already knew what restrains

Agreed. I am sure Paul was very familiar with Daniel 12:1, which I believe is relevant to this discussion.

The stand off presented appears to be between The Lord and Satan .... not Michael

The passage doesn’t name the Lord as the restrainer either, only that the Lord will destroy “that wicked with the brightness of His coming”. So Michael could be used by the Lord for this purpose. I have stated ample evidence that is possible, I have seen no evidence it is not possible.

So I believe that it is the holy spirit and not Michael that restrains, steps aside, and also will consume

Many others agree with you as well; conversely many others believe it is Michael.

1. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and thus cannot be “taken out of the way”.

2. No scripture I know of places the Holy Spirit in the specific roll of handling satan in anyway. If I’ve missed one please share it.

3. The roll of the Holy Spirit in scripture is that of a comforter John 14:16, a teacher 1 Corinthians 2:13

4. It is abundantly clear from Daniel 10:13&21, Revelation 12:7-9 that Michael specifically engages in this type of warfare with fallen angels and satan himself.

5. It is abundantly clear that some unnamed angel of God retrains satan in the bottomless pit for 1000 years.

6. 2 Thessalonians 2 does not name Michael , the Holy Spirit or the Church, given the evidence I have provided, to emphatically state it must be the Holy Spirit with no scriptural evidence is a shaky theory at best.

7. Since 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 clearly states our gathering will not take place until the man of sin is revealed and the man of sin will not be revealed until the one who retrains is taken out of the way, it is impossible the church is removed before the man of sin is revealed and extremely improbable it is the Holy Spirit that is “taken out of the way”.

So you and the forum have the answer to your first question. Everyone can come to their own conclusion from what is presented here.

I have not proved beyond any doubt the restrainer is Michael and you have not even hinted at scriptural proof The Holy Spirit Is the restrainer.

You and many others believe it is the Holy Spirit and I and many others believe it could be Michael, so we shall leave it there until more scriptural truth is revealed.

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2016

"1. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and thus cannot be “taken out of the way”

The Lord's holy spirit is ominpresent and always has been .... but the Lord can diminish His restraint against Satan

The reason for His adjustment is to allow for Satan to present his man of lawlessness for those who have refused to believe the truth about Him .... this is quite clear in the context of the passagge

Again, what is your point?

Explain it, you must have some reason for your choice

Postvieww · Nov 7, 2016

Straightshot said:
"1. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and thus cannot be “taken out of the way”

The Lord's holy spirit is ominpresent and always has been .... but the Lord can dininish His restraint against Satan

The reason for His adjustment is to allow for Satan to present his man of lawlessness for those who have refused to believe the truth about Him .... this is quite clear in the context of the passagge

Again, what is your point?

Explain it, you must have some reason for your choice

Straightshot said:

The Lord's holy spirit is ominpresent and always has been .... but the Lord can dininish His restraint against Satan

The problem with that is, the passage doesn’t say anything will be diminished, it says it will be taken out of the way. There is no scripture I know of that supports the Holy Spirit fulfilling this roll, as there is for Michael.

The reason for His adjustment is to allow for Satan to present his man of lawlessness for those who have refused to believe the truth about Him .... this is quite clear in the context of the passagge

Again there is no adjustment, it is the taking out of the way of that which letteth or hindereth so that that wicked can be revealed in his own time. That time being God’s appointed time to bring this to a conclusion and fulfill His prophetic word.

Again, what is your point?

Again, I believe it is important to the understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2 and is of interest to me and others. Also it has scriptural support as a valid theory.

Explain it, you must have some reason for your choice

My choice as you call it is what I believe the scripture reveals on the subject.

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2016

You have some other reason for making your choice

What is it?

This is what I think you are doing

The Lord never totally withdraws His restaint against Satan until He detroys him in His lake of fire .... but He will give the devil just enough rope to hang himself .... and it is His holy spirit that holds the devil at bay [Genesis 1:2; Revelation 5:6]

His holy spirit is always present on the earth and in His entire universe .... has been from the beginning and will never be "withdrawn" .... impossible .... the Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable

I see what you are trying to do by inserting Micahel the archangel as the one who is taken "out of the way" .... the scripture does not say this .... Michael is not named as the One

If your objective is to refute the idea as some carry related to the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia, then you have picked a non-starter

The idea that the Lord's holy spirit leaves the earth with the "rapture" is bogus in the first place

There are several scriptures taken together that do prove the Lord's early call, but not this one

Postvieww · Nov 7, 2016

Straightshot said:
You have some other reason for making your choice

What is it?

This is what I think you are doing

The Lord never totally withdraws His restaint against Satan until He detroys him in His lake of fire .... but He will give the devil just enough rope to hang himself .... and it is His holy spirit that holds the devil at bay [Genesis 1:2; Revelation 5:6]

His holy spirit is always present on the earth and in His entire universe .... has been from the beginning and will never be "withdrawn" .... impossible .... the Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable

I see what you are trying to do by inserting Micahel the archangel as the one who is taken "out of the way" .... the scripture does not say this .... Michael is not named as the One

If your objective is to refute the idea as some carry related to the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia, then you have picked a non-starter

The idea that the Lord's holy spirit leaves the earth with the "rapture" is bogus in the first place

There are several scriptures taken together that do prove the Lord's early call, but not this one

Straightshot said:

You have some other reason for making your choice

I believe scripture made my choice.

What is it?

This is what I think you are doing

The Lord never totally withdraws His restaint against Satan until He detroys him in His lake of fire .... but He will give the devil just enough rope to hang himself .... and it is His holy spirit that holds the devil at bay [Genesis 1:2; Revelation 5:6]

The Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters is not a description of keeping the devil at bay.

Rev 5:6 “the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth” the purpose is not defined in this passage.

Neither of the above scriptures say or imply the Holy Spirit “holds the devil at bay”.

His holy spirit is always present on the earth and in His entire universe .... has been from the beginning and will never be "withdrawn" .... impossible .... the Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable

Agree totally.

I see what you are trying to do by inserting Micahel the archangel as the one who is taken "out of the way" .... the scripture does not say this .... Michael is not named as the One

Nor is the Holy Spirit.

I believe it is other passages in Daniel and Revelation that insert Michael into this role.

If your objective is to refute the idea as some carry related to the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia, then you have picked a non-starter

I believe I have said at least twice to you that I believe this was relevant to understanding 2 Thessalonians 2.

The idea that the Lord's holy spirit leaves the earth with the "rapture" is bogus in the first place

Agree totally. Then explain how the Holy Spirit can be taken out of the way. Who takes Him out of the way? Is he not a coequal part of the Godhead ?

There are several scriptures taken together that do prove the Lord's early call,

Disagree

but not this

Agree

Straightshot · Nov 7, 2016

"His holy spirit is always present on the earth and in His entire universe .... has been from the beginning and will never be "withdrawn" .... impossible .... the Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable

Agree totally."

And it is the presence of His holy spirit that holds the devil at bay and against his motives to usurp the Lord as God

And "taking out of the way" refers to "removing restraint" against Satan's ambitions .... this does not mean that the Lord somehow "removes" His holy spirit from the earth or His universe

This idea would make no sense

And Genesis 1:2 tells the restraining story further

The Lord judged Satan and his fallen angels and His spirit hovered over the aftermath

Satan had just been severely restrained by the Lord stopping his folly of thinking that he was God and taking away his position as the anointed cherub that covereth [Ezekiel 28:14]

Not destroying the devil, but restraining him from his positional behavior and open ended intransigence before the judgment

The Lord then allowed for Satan to interact with the earth and humans just after [Genesis 3], but not without a restraint .... if no restraint, the devil would have eliminated the first humans on the spot

.... the presence of the Lord's holy spirit hinders the work of the devil by the measure that He imposes

So it will be at the time of the end [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Job8 · Nov 9, 2016

Postvieww said:
If you disagree show the evidence for your theory from scripture.

Michael cannot be the Restrainer for the simply reason that he has to call upon the Lord to rebuke Satan.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9).

Only God Himself can restrain, rebuke, and command Satan. Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his angels under God's direction. Therefore the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

Straightshot · Nov 9, 2016

"Only God Himself can restrain, rebuke, and command Satan."

No doubt

The restraint against Satan is by the Lord's holy spirit and when He is ready He will stand aside to allow for the devil to bring his "man of lawlessness"

Postvieww · Nov 9, 2016

Job8 said:
Michael cannot be the Restrainer for the simply reason that he has to call upon the Lord to rebuke Satan.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9).

Only God Himself can restrain, rebuke, and command Satan. Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his angels under God's direction. Therefore the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

No doubt Michael’s direction and power come from the Lord. I have repeatedly stated Michael engages in these battles at God’s direction.

I disagree with your conclusion that just because Jude quotes Michael as saying “the Lord rebuke thee” that the restrainer of 2 Thess. 2 is the Holy Spirit.

Daniel 10:12-13,Daniel 10:21, Revelation 12:7-9, and Revelation 20:1-3 do not mention the words "the Lord rebuke thee". They may very well have said those words but that is irrelevant because Michael and whichever angel in Rev 20 is still the vessel that God uses to carry out His will in those cases.

Straightshot · Nov 9, 2016

Michael the archangel is employed by the Lord to stand for Israel throughout scripture

To deal with lessor fallen angelic powers involved with human kingdoms as described in Daniel 10

However, when it comes to a top satanic cherub like Satan [Lucifer] it is always the Lord who must restrain him [Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28] .... and He does

The Lord controls the devil and bends him to His will

Postvieww · Nov 9, 2016

Straightshot said:
Michael the archangel is employed by the Lord to stand for Israel throughout scripture

To deal with lessor fallen angelic powers involved with human kingdoms as described in Daniel 10

However, when it comes to a top satanic cherub like Satan [Lucifer] it is always the Lord who must restrain him [Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28] .... and He does

The Lord controls the devil and bends him to His will

Straightshot said:

Michael the archangel is employed by the Lord to stand for Israel throughout scripture

There are only 5 references in scripture to Michael. Standing for “thy people” is not one of them, in Revelation 12:7-9 and Jude 9, it can also be argued that is not the case in Daniel 10.

IMO Daniel 12:1 is the act described in 2 Thessalonians 2. When Michael stands up it is then that the time of trouble takes place. You will argue “thy people” is specifically Israel, I will argue they are the people of God, because the passage says at that time the resurrection will take place and everyone that shall be found written in the book shall be delivered.

IMO it can also be argued that Revelation 12 could very well be another description of 2 Thessalonians 2 because when satan and his angels are cast out of heaven it is then satan comes down to earth having great wrath because he has a short time. It is then that the dragon gives the beast his power and persecution of the saints ramps up. The man of sin is revealed.

To deal with lessor fallen angelic powers involved with human kingdoms as described in Daniel 10

This was but one of his assignments in scripture.

However, when it comes to a top satanic cherub like Satan [Lucifer] it is always the Lord who must restrain him [Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28] .... and He does

Not true, as proved by the fact that Michael and his angels fight and cast out satan and all of his angels from heaven, Revelation 12:7-9.

Isaiah 14 does not back your point it merely refers to and describes satan.

Ezekiel 28 does say the Lord will deal with him but that does not back your point either, as proved by the fact that Michael deals with satan by casting him out of heaven in Revelation 12.

The Lord controls the devil and bends him to His will

The Lord can and does use Michael against satan as proved above.

You have in no way proved it is the Holy Spirit referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2. Nor have you prove it cannot be Michael in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Straightshot · Nov 9, 2016

But Michael must have the Lord's backing on all matters .... Michael is a created being

Your are attempting very hard to prove your point for some reason

I think it is because you are trying to prove that the idea of some that the holy spirit leaves with the pre-tribulation "church" and that this will open up the way for Satan's "man of lawlessness" to be revealed

So if you can say that Michael is the one taken out of the way and not the Lord's holy spirit, then you have disproved the pre-tribulation "rapture"

You have not .... there are many related scriptures taken together that substantiate the Lord's promise

The problem is that the Lord's holy spirit never leaves anywhere, but is omnipresent in the universe and also present in the believer

Those who use the idea of the holy spirit leaving in the believers to prove the pre-tribulation "rapture" are using this are wrong

If your position is for some other reason what is it?

Postvieww · Nov 10, 2016

Straightshot said:
But Michael must have the Lord's backing on all matters .... Michael is a created being

I have said that before.

Your are attempting very hard to prove your point for some reason

In debate we all try very hard to “prove our point”. Yes even you.

I think it is because you are trying to prove that the idea of some that the holy spirit leaves with the pre-tribulation "church" and that this will open up the way for Satan's "man of lawlessness" to be revealed

So if you can say that Michael is the one taken out of the way and not the Lord's holy spirit, then you have disproved the pre-tribulation "rapture"

I have also said there is a connection to properly understanding 2 Thess. 2.

You have not .... there are many related scriptures taken together that substantiate the Lord's promise

The main subject of this thread is “Can Michael be the restrainer” not is there a pretrib rapture, which there is not.

The problem is that the Lord's holy spirit never leaves anywhere, but is omnipresent in the universe and also present in the believer

I agree with you.

Those who use the idea of the holy spirit leaving in the believers to prove the pre-tribulation "rapture" are using this are wrong

I agree with you.

If your position is for some other reason what is it?

Why are you always looking for a nefarious motive? Do you ask everyone who starts a thread what is their motive?

It is a point in eschatology on which there are several interpretations, I have presented the one I believe is correct and supported that belief with scripture. I don’t question your motive if you disagree I just might challenge your method of arriving at that belief.

Straightshot · Nov 10, 2016

"Why are you always looking for a nefarious motive? Do you ask everyone who starts a thread what is their motive?"

I do if I think there is intent to skew biblical truth

There is much meddling with the Lord's Word to day on a number of significant matters and people are very vulnerable, also ignorant of the truth

Misleading is a dangerous game that can be used by men with questionable intents .... realized, or not

I really do no care about what any particular individual believes for themselves

.... but I do care about standing for His truth on significant matters and to be responsible for conveying the same to others

Professing Christianity is horribly divided and off course today and there is a need to cull out the confusion by keeping the Christian witness on the straight and narrow for the benefit of those who hear

Can Michael be the restrainer?

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