Is Mary God?

Jim Langston · Nov 4, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
Mary is not dead!

That did not answer my question, did it?

All4Christ · Nov 4, 2016

I'm a bit overextended right now, so I'm bowing out of this conversation. Blessings to you all!

smithed64 · Nov 5, 2016

prodromos said:
Please explain how talking to someone is idolatry.

Talking to someone isn't.

Venerating and placing that person before Christ. Or expecting that person to intercede with Christ is. He hears our prayers. He doesn't need an intercessory to hear them.

Major1 · Nov 5, 2016

Mountainmike said:
With respect, the thread is entitled is Mary God. I answered the point on Eucharist because it was in someone's anti catholic bucket list. It should be in a Eucharist thread.

Off topic makes threads hard to read, and long list non focussed objection makes answering impossible in reasonable length answers.

Worse than that are straw men, like paedophilia. Catholic and Christian doctrine doesn't support it, neither do rank and file Catholics. .So why raise it?

I noticed a presbyterian pastor murdered two wives. Do I accuse Presbyterians of wife murder?

My dear friend. IS MARY GOD opens the door to all kinds of questions. That is proven by reading the posts of all involved. People want to talk about "things" and the question posted opens that door.

That can not be changed because the questions are making you uncomfortable. You see Mike, that is exactly what exposure to the Word of God does. It makes people uncomfortable and takes them out of their comfort zone.

Heb. 4:12........
"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Now if there were world wide law suits against Presbyterian Pastors as there are now against Catholic Priests, not only would I want you to bring it up...I would beat you to it.

Not talking about this will not make it go away and allow you to stay in your comfort zone my friend.

Mountainmike · Nov 5, 2016

Major1 said:
My dear friend. IS MARY GOD opens the door to all kinds of questions. That is proven by reading the posts of all involved. People want to talk about "things" and the question posted opens that door.

That can not be changed because the questions are making you uncomfortable. You see Mike, that is exactly what exposure to the Word of God does. It makes people uncomfortable and takes them out of their comfort zone.

Heb. 4:12........
"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

Now if there were world wide law suits against Presbyterian Pastors as there are now against Catholic Priests, not only would I want you to bring it up...I would beat you to it.

Not talking about this will not make it go away and allow you to stay in your comfort zone my friend.

The number of lawsuits is a complete irrelevance.
The only cases lawyers take is ones where they can pay their fat fees, and damages to the client. And that means taking on a massive counterparty like RCC

Most sex abusers are in the home and not worth suing.
So you see very few lawsuits, and by and large the press are not interested as they ar in RCC.

And I have absolutely no doubt it is no better (or worse) in the presbyterian church. It is just a lot smaller, and - the essence of the claims had to be to try to prove organisational cover up or failing to act, (because individual priests are not worth litigating) Because there is no central authority in Presbyterian ( even over doctrine, which is why the split P is so shambolic), congregations cannot be sued in the way RCC was. Justice is in proportion to bank balance as you know in law.

As I just posted, the problem is no worse amongst priests than anywhere else. Take new york times or newsweek. since I doubt you accept catholic media.

http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/does-celibacy-increase-sex-abuse/?_r=0

Mountainmike · Nov 5, 2016

smithed64 said:
Talking to someone isn't.

Venerating and placing that person before Christ. Or expecting that person to intercede with Christ is. He hears our prayers. He doesn't need an intercessory to hear them.

Then why do you ask others to pray for you?
If prayers from others don't help in your view?

smithed64 · Nov 5, 2016

pdudgeon said:
we also do not believe that she is God.
We do believe the annunciation of Gabriel, that she is blessed and honored by God.

Where is that in the Bible?

we believe this as well. but just as you might ask a friend to pray for you (intercession) we ask Mary and the Saints and our friends to do the same for us.

But praying to the dead not how it works.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Asking a friend to pray for you. You can do that, it's even biblical.

James 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc.,--things which are received and answered by God and not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone--or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God--never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry.

ok, first is the fact that Mary is not mentioned by name in Revelations.
Consider the time in which the book of Revelations was written, and the fact that it was circulated to various churches to be read.
Now consider that along with the Apostles, other believers of Christ who had seen Him risen and knew that He survived the grave would not have been of the list of Rome's most popular people at the time of the writing.
their lives were in danger, as was hers.

She wasn't in that much danger from the Romans. She was in the crowd, she was seen by all to fall at Christ feet, even the centurions. Her and John were near to the last ones at the cross when Christ spoke to her and John. Even then Christ didn't call her mother or mom, he called her woman.

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If you read Revelation 12 with understanding you will see encapsulated, the life of Mary from when she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit to the birth of Jesus in verse 5.
Verse 6 speaks of the flight into Egypt.

The woman who is pregnant isn't Mary. It symbolizes the church.

begnning in verse 7, there is a lapse in time. the narrative takes up again with the resurrection of Christ in verse 10.
beginning in verse 13 we see that he again tries to harm her but she is once again protected for 3 1/2 years (time, times, and half a time) in verse 14. This should keep you busy for a while.

Revelation 12 synopsis:

A description of the church of Christ and of Satan, under the figures of a woman and of a great red dragon. (Re 12:1-6) Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, who are defeated. (Re 12:7-12) The dragon persecutes the church. (Re 12:13-14) His vain endeavours to destroy her, He renews his war against her seed. (Re 12:14-17)

idolotry is the making (fashioning) of idols without the permission of God, such as what happened in Exodus.

Anything that you take to worship other than God, is idolatry. Not just graven images. Prayer is one of the ways we worship God. If you pray to another but God, it's idolatry.

and while we're at it, you should also note that there were times when God did indeed permit the fashioning of figurines (ie the cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant) and also the bronze serpent on the cross in the Wilderness.

About the angels on the Ark:

Let me first show the main point why there is no problem; "Idolatry" is only a reference to man's own devised modes of worship. An example would be when man decides on his own that he needs to make a physical form to use in relating to God. The creation and worship to such an object would constitute the prohibitions of idolatry. If however, God instructs us to make physical objects, this is no longer man's devised mode of worship, but it is God's wisdom. This is what sets apart idolatry from true worship of God. This is why the ark is not considered idolatry, whereas man's own creations would be.

Now about the bronze serpents:

I think in order to answer this question, a short detour needs to be taken to John's Gospel, because in it Jesus Christ himself refers to this incident with Moses and the bronze serpent. In John 3:14-15, Jesus tells Nicodemus, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Then, Jesus continues by noting that out of love God sent His Son into the world to save it, not to condemn it (John 3:16-17). Jesus then says, though, that the world was already condemned: "Whoever believes in him [i.e. the Son, Jesus Christ] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).

The point in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus is that he came into the world to save a world that was already condemned, and that this salvation comes through him being "lifted up." The world, and us in it, are "condemned already" due to the sin of Adam and Eve, and Jesus saves us through his death on the cross (i.e. he was "lifted up"). All who look on Christ in faith receive this redemption from death; those who do not are not condemned by Christ, because they were already condemned due to sin.

So, getting back to Moses and the bronze serpent in the book of Numbers. To put some context around it, the people of Israel had been in slavery in Egypt. Through Moses, the Lord has delivered them up out of slavery, redeeming them from their captivity. He is now leading them to the land He has promised them. Yet, the people continually rebel against the Lord. They finally "spoke against God and against Moses," accusing them of bringing the people out to the wilderness to die. Then, they call the manna which the Lord had been sending them "worthless." Thus, they despise the Lord's grace and mercy in delivering them out of captivity (cf. Numbers 21:4-5).

Therefore, the Lord gives them what their sins deserve: death. He sends "fiery serpents" to them, which bite the people and kill them. Sin came into the world through the serpent, Satan, and now here in Numbers the people are suffering the consequences of sin, namely death; they are "condemned already" (Numbers 21:6-7).

However, the Lord provides a means to save the people. He has Moses make a bronze serpent, the symbol of death, and raise it up on a pole. All who look on it will live (Numbers 21:8-9).

Jesus connects this event with his own crucifixion. He is raised up on the cross to die for our sins. He dies on the symbol of death, apparently "bitten" by the serpent Satan, dying the death we deserve. Yet, through this symbol of death we have life; everyone who looks on the cross of Christ in faith will live, even though we have been bitten by the serpent and are therefore sinners (cf. Numbers 21:9).

That's a lot of words to say basically that Christ interprets the event in Numbers in light of what he came to do; he came to die by being raised up on the cross in order to save people who were "condemned already" by the serpent Satan and the sin he brought into the world. So, what happens in Numbers points forward to what Christ was coming to do on the cross for all people.

Indeed, Christ came to save not only us, but also his entire creation. He died and rose to save a world that was "condemned already," restoring it to the perfection in which he had originally created it (cf. John 1:1ff). This will come on the "Last Day" with his return and the resurrection.

so idolotry is not as broadly defined as you think it is.

Sure it is. We are to worship Christ. Prayer is worshipping God. We pray, He hears, and then He answered.

They don't need any help. The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Have it all under control.

Major1 · Nov 5, 2016

smithed64 said:
Where is that in the Bible?

But praying to the dead not how it works.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Asking a friend to pray for you. You can do that, it's even biblical.

James 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s) since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc.,--things which are received and answered by God and not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone--or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God--never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry.

She wasn't in that much danger from the Romans. She was in the crowd, she was seen by all to fall at Christ feet, even the centurions. Her and John were near to the last ones at the cross when Christ spoke to her and John. Even then Christ didn't call her mother or mom, he called her woman.

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

The woman who is pregnant isn't Mary. It symbolizes the church.

Revelation 12 synopsis:

A description of the church of Christ and of Satan, under the figures of a woman and of a great red dragon. (Re 12:1-6) Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, who are defeated. (Re 12:7-12) The dragon persecutes the church. (Re 12:13-14) His vain endeavours to destroy her, He renews his war against her seed. (Re 12:14-17)

Anything that you take to worship other than God, is idolatry. Not just graven images. Prayer is one of the ways we worship God. If you pray to another but God, it's idolatry.

About the angels on the Ark:

Let me first show the main point why there is no problem; "Idolatry" is only a reference to man's own devised modes of worship. An example would be when man decides on his own that he needs to make a physical form to use in relating to God. The creation and worship to such an object would constitute the prohibitions of idolatry. If however, God instructs us to make physical objects, this is no longer man's devised mode of worship, but it is God's wisdom. This is what sets apart idolatry from true worship of God. This is why the ark is not considered idolatry, whereas man's own creations would be.

Now about the bronze serpents:

I think in order to answer this question, a short detour needs to be taken to John's Gospel, because in it Jesus Christ himself refers to this incident with Moses and the bronze serpent. In John 3:14-15, Jesus tells Nicodemus, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Then, Jesus continues by noting that out of love God sent His Son into the world to save it, not to condemn it (John 3:16-17). Jesus then says, though, that the world was already condemned: "Whoever believes in him [i.e. the Son, Jesus Christ] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).

The point in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus is that he came into the world to save a world that was already condemned, and that this salvation comes through him being "lifted up." The world, and us in it, are "condemned already" due to the sin of Adam and Eve, and Jesus saves us through his death on the cross (i.e. he was "lifted up"). All who look on Christ in faith receive this redemption from death; those who do not are not condemned by Christ, because they were already condemned due to sin.

So, getting back to Moses and the bronze serpent in the book of Numbers. To put some context around it, the people of Israel had been in slavery in Egypt. Through Moses, the Lord has delivered them up out of slavery, redeeming them from their captivity. He is now leading them to the land He has promised them. Yet, the people continually rebel against the Lord. They finally "spoke against God and against Moses," accusing them of bringing the people out to the wilderness to die. Then, they call the manna which the Lord had been sending them "worthless." Thus, they despise the Lord's grace and mercy in delivering them out of captivity (cf. Numbers 21:4-5).

Therefore, the Lord gives them what their sins deserve: death. He sends "fiery serpents" to them, which bite the people and kill them. Sin came into the world through the serpent, Satan, and now here in Numbers the people are suffering the consequences of sin, namely death; they are "condemned already" (Numbers 21:6-7).

However, the Lord provides a means to save the people. He has Moses make a bronze serpent, the symbol of death, and raise it up on a pole. All who look on it will live (Numbers 21:8-9).

Jesus connects this event with his own crucifixion. He is raised up on the cross to die for our sins. He dies on the symbol of death, apparently "bitten" by the serpent Satan, dying the death we deserve. Yet, through this symbol of death we have life; everyone who looks on the cross of Christ in faith will live, even though we have been bitten by the serpent and are therefore sinners (cf. Numbers 21:9).

That's a lot of words to say basically that Christ interprets the event in Numbers in light of what he came to do; he came to die by being raised up on the cross in order to save people who were "condemned already" by the serpent Satan and the sin he brought into the world. So, what happens in Numbers points forward to what Christ was coming to do on the cross for all people.

Indeed, Christ came to save not only us, but also his entire creation. He died and rose to save a world that was "condemned already," restoring it to the perfection in which he had originally created it (cf. John 1:1ff). This will come on the "Last Day" with his return and the resurrection.

Sure it is. We are to worship Christ. Prayer is worshipping God. We pray, He hears, and then He answered.

They don't need any help. The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Have it all under control.

That was a lot of work to put together. It is Biblical and that is the key.

You are exhibiting rock solid Biblical truth.

Major1 · Nov 5, 2016

Mountainmike said:
Then why do you ask others to pray for you?
If prayers from others don't help in your view?

Because the Bible tells us to.

James 5:14-16.........
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Of course that command is talking about people who are alive, not the dead.

MarkRohfrietsch · Nov 5, 2016

Admin Hat:

Thread closed pending staff review.

mnorian · Nov 8, 2016

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Which Is:
Is Mary God?
And Not Goad or Flame
Other Members
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JCFantasy23 · Nov 8, 2016

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pdudgeon · Nov 8, 2016

smithed64 said:
Where is that in the Bible?

you will find it in Luke 1:26-28.

While we agree that the Virgin Mary is not God, apparently we are at odds when it comes to acknowledging that she was blessed and favored by God.

This scripture proves that while she was still on Earth, she was blessed and honored by God before all other women. She retains that blessing and honor in heaven, even as we see that the 24 elders have retained their honor after dying in Revelation 4:4.

Even Elizabeth recogized the honor that the Virgin Mary had been given in Luke 1:42-44. and we see Mary's response to this greeting in Luke 1:46-55.
please don't miss verse 48 as well.

Major1 · Nov 8, 2016

pdudgeon said:
you will find it in Luke 1:26-28.

While we agree that the Virgin Mary is not God, apparently we are at odds when it comes to acknowledging that she was blessed and favored by God.

This scripture proves that while she was still on Earth, she was blessed and honored by God before all other women. She retains that blessing and honor in heaven, even as we see that the 24 elders have retained their honor after dying in Revelation 4:4.

Even Elizabeth recogized the honor that the Virgin Mary had been given in Luke 1:42-44. and we see Mary's response to this greeting in Luke 1:46-55.
please don't miss verse 48 as well.

No argument from me my friend. I never said that Mary was not blessed.

The thread is "Is Mary God" I think and to that I said and say NO, she is not God.

Nothing said in the verses you posted suggest anything to validate the idea of Mary being God.

IF you choose to believe that, then may the Lord bless you.

ViaCrucis · Nov 8, 2016

Major1 said:
Because the Bible tells us to.

James 5:14-16.........
"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Of course that command is talking about people who are alive, not the dead.

Why would someone stop praying by entering into the Lord's presence? That seems like the height of backward thinking, it's tantamount to saying "Oh, that person is with the Lord in heaven, they no longer have a relationship with God"

-CryptoLutheran

Major1 · Nov 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
Why would someone stop praying by entering into the Lord's presence? That seems like the height of backward thinking, it's tantamount to saying "Oh, that person is with the Lord in heaven, they no longer have a relationship with God"

-CryptoLutheran

There is a big difference between "praying for the dead" and the "people in heaven praying for us".

I hope that believers in heaven can and do pray for us today, but in reality I do not think that they do.

The bottom line is that there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the dead have influence over events on earth. In fact, the Bible says that there are no grief, tears, or unhappiness in heaven in Rev. 21:4, which seems to preclude those in heaven from even knowing what is happening on earth.

But that is just me and you are free to think as you please.

smithed64 · Nov 8, 2016

pdudgeon said:
you will find it in Luke 1:26-28.

While we agree that the Virgin Mary is not God, apparently we are at odds when it comes to acknowledging that she was blessed and favored by God.

This scripture proves that while she was still on Earth, she was blessed and honored by God before all other women. She retains that blessing and honor in heaven, even as we see that the 24 elders have retained their honor after dying in Revelation 4:4.

Even Elizabeth recogized the honor that the Virgin Mary had been given in Luke 1:42-44. and we see Mary's response to this greeting in Luke 1:46-55.
please don't miss verse 48 as well.

I agree. Mary was blessed by God. Just as any Born Again person is Blessed. Mary, joyously, celebrates this blessing. As we all should when God uses us for His Glory.
Mary, shows this in the verses where she is speaking of God. That it is God who gets the glory, not her.

I believe Mary is with God right now. I believe she will receive her crown from God. But so will the Apostles, Preachers of Old and Present who have keep their faith. We can praise God for that and I do, because one day I'll wear a crown. But you don't worship the Apostles. Can those in heaven hear the prayers put up. In Revelations it says they do. But who does the answering. God. Why? Because He hears the prayers Himself. The only mediator is Christ. And He is our mediator to God, our advocate.
There is only one way to the father, Through Christ Jesus. Not the saints, nor Mary.

And the scripture holds true. To this day, we thank God for blessing Mary with carrying and Having our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But after that, it's about Him, not her.

ViaCrucis · Nov 8, 2016

Major1 said:
There is a big difference between "praying for the dead" and the "people in heaven praying for us".

I hope that believers in heaven can and do pray for us today, but in reality I do not think that they do.

The bottom line is that there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the dead have influence over events on earth. In fact, the Bible says that there are no grief, tears, or unhappiness in heaven in Rev. 21:4, which seems to preclude those in heaven from even knowing what is happening on earth.

But that is just me and you are free to think as you please.

Well, just for clarification, the 21st chapter of the Apocalypse is talking about the new heavens and the new earth.

But even still, I fail to see what there being no grief, tears, or unhappiness in heaven has to do with whether or not the Saints pray for us. Though, Scripture does in fact teach that both the Saints and angels pray and concern themselves with events right here, Zechariah 1:12 and Revelation 6:10 show an angel praying and the martyrs in heaven praying respectively. So it's certainly biblical to say that the Saints pray for us.

The major issue here I suppose is that I don't see any difference between Christians here on earth or Christians in heaven praying for one another, because there is only one Church, and one Communion of Saints, comprised of all the Faithful, not just those here on earth. The epistle to the Hebrews even says that we are surrounded by the great crowd of witnesses, all the forerunners of our faith, cheering us on as we run the race with Christ firmly set before our gaze.

I have no reason to believe that Christians stop doing what Christians do simply because they are now in the immediate presence of the Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Major1 · Nov 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
Well, just for clarification, the 21st chapter of the Apocalypse is talking about the new heavens and the new earth.

But even still, I fail to see what there being no grief, tears, or unhappiness in heaven has to do with whether or not the Saints pray for us. Though, Scripture does in fact teach that both the Saints and angels pray and concern themselves with events right here, Zechariah 1:12 and Revelation 6:10 show an angel praying and the martyrs in heaven praying respectively. So it's certainly biblical to say that the Saints pray for us.

The major issue here I suppose is that I don't see any difference between Christians here on earth or Christians in heaven praying for one another, because there is only one Church, and one Communion of Saints, comprised of all the Faithful, not just those here on earth. The epistle to the Hebrews even says that we are surrounded by the great crowd of witnesses, all the forerunners of our faith, cheering us on as we run the race with Christ firmly set before our gaze.

I have no reason to believe that Christians stop doing what Christians do simply because they are now in the immediate presence of the Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

Simple my friend. IF they prayed for us wouldn't that infer that they KNEW about our needs and pains and sufferings????

And if that is the case, would they not then be affected by our sorrows. That is why IMO they do not know.

Now as for Zech. 1:12 saying that angels are praying for the saints. That is nOT what Zech. says my dear friend.
It says......"Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?"

Google "The angel of the Lord", and you will see that Zech. is talking about the Pre-incarnant Christ and not "angels". This is intercession by Christ not praying for you and me.

Rev. 6:10 is NOT prayers for the myrters at all.
"They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

They are the JEWISH myters of that period in future time and That is a cry for vengeance in keeping with the age of judgment.

ViaCrucis · Nov 8, 2016

Major1 said:
Simple my friend. IF they prayed for us wouldn't that infer that they KNEW about our needs and pains and sufferings????

And if that is the case, would they not then be affected by our sorrows. That is why IMO they do not know.

Wouldn't it make more sense that they see things through the glorified lens of God's mercies?
Or at the very least that it is an error on our part to try and compare that incomprehensible existence with our present one, as though we could possibly comprehend what it is like to be in the Lord's presence in the intermediate state, or after the resurrection, the world to come?

But I actually want to take this moment to address what I feel is a more problematic issue here, where I have a bigger problem with this popular notion of heavenly ignorance and/or heavenly amnesia. It, in essence, renders an entire lifetime of experience irrelevant, it boils down to a Gnostic-like escapism--to escape the shackles of the material creation and now to be so completely isolated from the material world in a distant ethereal one. It's just another example of how the ghost of Gnosticism continues to haunt the Church. Conversely the historic teaching of the Church is that the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant are one Church, and that the Communion of Saints endures because of our unity in Christ; so both the saints on earth and the saints in heaven have not had their communion broken by death, because Christ has triumphed over death; and they and we together are still Christ's People, knit together in the Holy Spirit, under God the Father, in the unity of Jesus; and that we are together looking forward to that future, glorious day when God makes all things new, the resurrection of the body, the restoration of all things, and the life everlasting.

Now as for Zech. 1:12 saying that angels are praying for the saints. That is nOT what Zech. says my dear friend.
It says......"Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?"

Google "The angel of the Lord", and you will see that Zech. is talking about the Pre-incarnant Christ and not "angels". This is intercession by Christ not praying for you and me.

While an argument can be made, indeed, that the Angel of the LORD is frequently identified as being himself YHVH and, indeed, the Church historically has understood many of these references to be theophanic appearances of the pre-incarnate Logos; that doesn't mean that every time the text refers to the Malakh YHVH it is a theophany. A theophany requires the necessary context, is there a reason, given the context, to understand the angel here as the Logos rather than an actual angel?

On the contrary, Zechariah is an example of an early Jewish apocalypse, and has one of the principal motifs of apocalyptic literature, namely, visions and a heavenly escort--almost always an angel. It is a motif borrowed by St. John in his Apocalypse, as John borrows heavily from Zechariah. The heavenly agent or escort is an angel, not the Divine Logos. A key element of when a theophany is mentioned is usually that the messenger (malakh) is in some way actually identified with God, such as when the Angel of the LORD appears to Hagar, and later to Abraham, and also Moses in the burning bush.

Rev. 6:10 is NOT prayers for the myrters at all.

Not for, of.

"They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

They are the JEWISH myters of that period in future time and That is a cry for vengeance in keeping with the age of judgment.

That is a particular Futurist, Dispensationalist reading of the Apocalypse, one which I entirely reject; but going down that particular tangent will lead us being here all day.

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