Yes I am teachable, but I listen for the anointing that teaches all things, I have no need that any man teach me, I listen for the new man in Christ as the head and as he works effectually in the measure of every part. I listen carefully for the inner witness of Christ in me. But as i listen to your words I also listen for that witness and while I see some good qualities in your behaviour and words, I see great error in understanding and you speak what you know from men and natural learning and not from the truth in many parts as I hope to show.
Greetings once again. We do agree on a few things -- namely that we need no man to teach us, we have the mind of Christ, and I, too, listen for the voice of the spirit of Jesus, whom I know (and, more importantly, who knows me), in all things.
Also, I would like you to know that I do consider everything you say and the verses you include in prayer with the holy spirit; it is this that dictates what I end up saying in response. You've put a lot of time into what you've said, and it is the least I can do.
In what you say above, though, you are making an assumption (based on zero information, I must add, as we have not previously talked about this) that what I have written to you comes from the teachings of men and/or natural understanding. In this assumption, you could not be more wrong.
Through no desire of my own (and despite my desires to the contrary), I have been kept alone by the holy spirit for the majority of my walk with him, sharing with others over time as they have had need of me. I have no use for man-made doctrines or labels; only Scripture is God-breathed and useful, etc. It is the holy spirit who has led me to the understanding that I have thus far, and likewise, it is he who prompted me to write to you in the hope that your heart might be reached. I should add that the hope was mine, not his, as he already knew the outcome of our conversation from the beginning. And yet, I have been inspired ot write to you; you may make of this what you will.
Please bear with me, I mean no insult or harm, but you are in great error. The Judas argument of men being saved and falling away and losing salvation is only one of a massive amount of truths from scripture i can show. Really it would take 800 pages to go trough the massive witness of these things from scripture. and inner witness of Christ in me. And while we we know nothing of ourselves, and if any man think he does he knows nothing as he ought to. But we have an unction from the holy one we know all things. The anointing teaches us all things and we need to grow in this and the revelation of God.
I likewise mean no insult or harm, as I hope I have demonstrated, and I also ask your forbearance, if you are able.
It is necessary for me to testify by the holy spirit that it is not I that am I error. Please remember, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Corinthians 8:1. This is what I would wish to offer you.
Please consider Matthew 19:16-23. Your 800 pages are your riches. Would you walk away from everything you think you know if Jesus asked it of you? I do not ask this question lightly. In fact, if it were up to my own human will, I would not ask it at all.
My sincere advice to you would be to walk away from all of the truths and witnesses you feel you have had and start anew in the holy spirit. Not only are you making serious fundamental errors, but none of the 800 pages is even necessary, for the very reason that when we need to witness, it is the holy spirit himself who speaks, not us with all of the truths we may have seen. I would much prefer to speak his words and not my own, unless my words were to offer testimony of Jesus. Matthew 10:20 and Revelation 19:10. The words you are reading here are a combination of both, as were those of my previous post. I very rarely write anything that is not one or the other or both.
here you show that you are not in the anointing and you use the words "respect", consider your correction here and before you scoff at it pause,
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2;1,9 KJV) and yes I know the context is referring to the rich and poor in the gatherings and mens respect of persons. But the respect of persons takes on many forms and is forbidden in scripture. Honour and esteem are better words to use towards each other. Respect means favouritism and to be partial.
This is the second error you committed in your post. If you had been listening to the holy spirit, it should have been obvious to you that I was simply showing respect for your feelings and, more deeply, for your existence as one of God's creations. I cannot call you "brother" at this time, for I am not entirely sure we are both of the holy spirit.
In any event, this makes me wonder if perhaps English is not your first language (no slight intended in either case). Yes, "respect" has multiple meanings, but the phrase "with respect" does not (though the tone/spirit behind its use may vary).
Regardless, you will not find any prohibition in the Bible against the use of the word "respect". We are only told not to be a respecters of persons, which is a matter of spirit, not the word itself. It is, after all, the spirit with which God is concerned, not the letter. 2 Corinthians 3:6.
You are in error here, lets look at the section,
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." ( John 17:6)
Here we see that the men that were given to Jesus were also called unto him in matthew 10 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples..." This is when they were given to him.
No, sorry, this is when he called them, just as the verse says. Your assumption that they were also given to him at this moment is not warranted, nor is it supported by Scripture. We must not go beyond what is written. 1 Corinthians 4:6.
In fact, they (those who believed in him, which is to say, the Eleven) were given to him before the creation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-6.
They were called out out of the world. So jesus is referring to the disciples all of them, Judas included as he said further in John 17,
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
Notice here that Jesus refers to those that were given to him, which in the context include Judas. Jesus says none of them is lost (among those that were given to him) except Judas. Jesus also says while ehe was ( past tense with them) he is not referring to the present reality in that verse. This shows that of all the 12 that were given to Jesus in the past and only Judas fell by transgression and was lost in the end.
This shows that the 12 apostles that Jesus called to him, were given to him by the Father and he said "thine they were" (past tense) this shows that the Father gave them to Jesus at the beginning of his ministry. This shows that even before they were given to jesus they belonged to the father. And of all those that were given to Jesus among the 12 only one was lost having once belonged to the father. This is so clear to the unbiased reader.
Please take a closer look at John 17:6-9. Jesus says, "6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they know that all things You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given them the words which You gave Me. They have received them and certainly know that I came from You, and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me. For they are Yours."
Note that he explicitly says, "...and they have kept your word" and also "...and they have believed that you sent me."
Now, please take a look again at John 6:64, and let's add John 6:65 this time.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 Then He said, “For this reason I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it were given him by My Father.”
From this, if I may borrow your words, it is abundantly clear to the unbiased reader that Jesus was speaking of Judas, that Judas never believed (and therefore never kept the Father's word), and that no one can come to Jesus (as Savior) unless it were given him by his Father. Since salvation comes only by believing in Jesus, and Judas never did, he was never saved.
Still referring to the past event when all the apostles believed his word and were kept, Judas also believed for a time.
No, sorry. John 6:64 states quite clearly that Judas did not believe. There is no time that he ever did. Unless you think this verse refers to a different apostle?
But among those given Judas fell away. This happened in time. When Judas was going out and casting out devils and believing the word of the Lord and when they all came back and jesus told them not to rejoice that the devils are subject to them but that their names are written in the lambs book of life. Judas at that time would have kept his word and been as successful as the others. jesus even said to the twelve that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. here were promises to all 12 Judas included at one time, until he betrayed jesus and fell by transgression. Judas at one time had part of the ministry and apostleship, he was a sent one of God and so to be such he would have had to believe the word of Jesus and kept the word.
And so what do you think, that Jesus did not know that Judas was going to betray him? I've already shown that he did.
Or are you saying that John 6:64 is false?
You have quite a dilemma here. In order for your assertions to be true, John 6:64 must be false.
Yes he did when he was called of jesus as one of HIS disciples. Notice Judas was not one of the devils disciples in mMatthew 10. He belonged to jesus and of his household as the text clearly says. At this time he would have had to keep his word in order to be sent and given power to cast out devils. Satan cannot cast out satan, and jesus would not send a devil to cast out devils, this would go against his won teaching.
Judas simply followed Jesus's instructions. Yes, he, along with the other apostles, performed miracles via the holy spirit, just as the sons of the Pharisees did, as I have already shown in my previous post.
Your assumption that Judas would have had to have kept the Father's word is not substantiated by Scripture. One does not have to have the holy spirit to use the power in the name of Jesus to perform acts in the holy spirit. Mark 9:38-40.
In fact, none of the apostles formally received the holy spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22, for which Judas was not present and was possibly already dead.
Since the holy spirit is a sign of salvation (Ephesians 1:13), this also shows that Judas was never saved.
We could also see John 17 referring to the apostles that were saved then as well and they have kept the word. But the context extends even further back to when jesus was with them in the world since the father first gave them to him.
Oh, it extends back much further than that. Again, Ephesians 1:4-6.
This is your made up interpretation and surmising, not according to scripture ,
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve..." (John 6:70) and the 12 that were originally called and chosen were HIS disciples. "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,"( Matthew 10:1)
also we read
"And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach," (Mark 3:14)
ordained here means- to appoint then or choose them to do a work.
again scripture is clear and your interpretation is strained and not true. Judas was called and chosen to go forth and preach and given power and belonged to the father before given to jesus and one of jesus disciples. But as he went away from God this call and chosen aspect changed.
You were fine right up until you said "belonged to the father...". I have already shown that he never did.
You misunderstand prophecy. God knowing all things doesn't mean he made men sin or go against him etc. God can see a being saved and walking with him and then see how they fall away and depart from him and still during the times when they are saved God can extend every grace and love to them, even knowing they will turn away.
We see this clearly with Lucifer. He was perfect in all his way and walked with God a covering Cherub, blessed and holy. Then he went away and fell and will end up in the lake of fire. God knew from the beginning that Lucifer would fall. But that doesn't stop God from loving him while he was with him and walking close to Lucifer before he fell. Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, yet in time God knew he would fall. Judas is similar to this and so is every saint who walks with God then departs and ends up in the lake of fire.
2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 are going to give you some problems here. God was angry with the Israelites and (via Satan) incited David to count his fighting men. David later on recognizes that he had sinned against God when he had done so, in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.
Again, your statements contradict Scripture. You are going to have to choose which you will believe.
This is false. The sons of Pharisees and false prophets and false men are not given power by Jesus to cast out devils. All the ones given such power by Jesus were also successful including Judas. He partook of the ministry and by the power of God. he was not a fake minister as some are. And yes even true ministers can cast out devils etc and end up in hell. They may try to say to God did not we cast out devils ( as Judas could) but if they die in their sin and unbelief and in the flesh then God never knew them. God only knows believers IN CHRIST , when they put of Christ. If they don't have Christ and are not covered with his righteousness God does not know them. God only knows those in Christ. Think of it this way, imagine a man puts a white sheet over his body and that sheet is Christ and his righteousness, and God knows him in that. But now he puts off that sheet and is in his flesh, God does not know him in that, and God never knew him in the flesh.
I never said that they had been given power by Jesus; I said they were casting out demons, some of them in Jesus's name, which is exactly what Scripture shows. I would ask that you please read more carefully.
You just say Judas never believed in jesus, but he did for sure. Or jesus wouldn't have said he was HIS disciple and sent him out to the lost sheep as a found sheep, and given him power to cast out devils etc.
This is human supposition -- and incorrect supposition at that. John 6:64 clearly states that Judas did not believe, and yet Jesus did in fact send him out with the other apostles. Both are equally and simultaneously true. This happened as written; it is not open for debate. It is only left to be understood, and understanding comes only by the holy spirit.
Drawing conclusions on what Jesus -- or anyone, really -- would or would not have done is entirely human supposition, by definition. It has no place in the search for truth and certainly no place in one's (supposed) understanding of truth.
What, are you saying that even the lost can use the name of jesus and have power? The false men tried that in Acts and the devils jumped all over them. they were not in the NAME of jesus Christ and his life and so they were not known.
It does not matter what I say; what matters is what the Bible says.
The verses I quoted show that the sons of the Pharisees were driving out demons by the holy spirit (we don't know if they used Jesus's name), and they were not saved. We may know they were not saved because they had not received the holy spirit -- because
no one had yet received the holy spirit; Jesus had not yet returned to his father.
The itinerant Jewish exorcists also drove out demons by the holy spirit (since, as you correctly point out, Satan cannot drive out Satan). Also, look again at Mark 9:38-40, where someone who was not one of the disciples drove out a demon using Jesus's name.
The verses speak for themselves. That you did not know this could be done once again raises the question of whether you are listening to the holy spirit. What is clear is that you do not yet know as you ought to know.
Judas wasn't a false apostle at the first. Jesus called him and sent him. Unless you are trying to say Jesus was mistaken. Also we read in Acts that Judas was a true apostle and he fell
"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." ( Acts 1:25)
The scriptures correct you here. Also we read
"Now the names of the twelve apostles are...and Judas Iscariot,..."( Matthew 10:2-4)
I believe the scriptural witness not your surmising about Judas being called as a false apostle and devil from the beginning. scripture is clear here
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,..."
Clearly all 12 were HIS and not the devils. But some twist and wrest the scriptures in tis place sadly.
On this point we actually agree; Judas was indeed named a legitimate apostle. I apologize if what I said implied otherwise. My intent was simply to show that false apostles did and do exist, but I may have failed to do that clearly and perhaps should not have mentioned it here.
No it is not, and i see you are trying to avoid such a clear correction and evidence. lets look at it,
' But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ( Matthew 10:6)
Here jesus shows that there are LOST sheep he is sending them to. He would not send a lost sheep to help the lost sheep, a blind man cannot lead another blind man as jesus said. Then he said
"16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16)
we know that no man is a literal sheep. But clearly to send his apostles ( all 12) as sheep to the lost sheep shows that they are found sheep and jesus said his sheep ear his voice and they follow him. The 12 followed jesus and were his sheep. This is so clear you are simply trying to avoid the consequence of this verse to avoid the reality of judas being a found sheep sent to the lost sheep.
We know that the apostles were saved and had eyes to see the kingdom as Jesus said to them. And except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom, but Jesus said that their eyes see.
Sorry, no. It has been clearly established that Judas never believed (unless you wish to ignore or dispute John 6:64). He also never received the holy spirit when the other apostles did (John 20:22).
So, no, he very clearly was never saved. And yet, as I said before, Jesus named him an apostle and sent him, along with the others, to perform miracles in his name and preach the kingdom of God. He did the same with the seventy-two in Luke 10, and all of these disciples fell away as well. It is not known whether or not any of these were ultimately saved, and we may draw no conclusions on this, as to do so would be to go beyond what is written. All we know is that the Eleven were saved, because they received the holy spirit when Jesus breathed on them.
One again, you are drawing conclusions based on what you believe Jesus would have or would not have done; this is human supposition and has nothing to do with the holy spirit.
That you believe that what happened couldn't have happened without Judas's being saved is, if you will forgive my saying so, not relevant. It did happen exactly that way.
The peace they had was the peace of God, the houses they found "worthy" their peace would come upon it. No man can have peace with God except through their relationship with God and if they are in that peace. You twist this to try and fit your view. By receiving the apostles they were in fact receiving jesus and his word and the message and power he ave the apostles
As someone who has been in the habit of actually doing this for quite some time, I can testify to you that what is done is exactly as the verses describe.
It is my peace, and not God's, that I offer to a house. Now, to be clear, the peace is a gift from God, but it is mine, and not God's, as this is what a gift means -- it belongs to the receiver and no longer to the giver.
But I am not here to play games with semantics. The point is that I have peace from God because he has given it to me as a gift. It is, in point of fact,
my peace. In contrast, Judas did not have peace from God, because he never believed in Jesus.
What you say above, "No man can have peace with God except through their relationship with God and if they are in that peace," is true; I agree with it. And to reiterate, my point is that Judas did not have that peace, because he never believed in Jesus.
That is your assumption, he said it to them as scripture shows, and it applied to them and to all who are sent forth of all times.
False Jesus was speaking to them directly and it applied to them. This is just your wrong theology that tries to fit it into your understanding. All OT saints were saved and had the new birth. Jesus said to the 12
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:...For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10:16,20) . If you admit that jesus is speaking to the twelve as he was this messes up your theology. But let it be messed up, follow truth not man made theology. These truths apply to all who are sent of all times.
Not my assumption at all. Can you supply verses that show that the apostles were called upon to testify before governors and kings at this time? We both know that there are none. But they certainly did in the future, and Judas was no longer among them.
Do not go beyond what is written.
this is just your made up stuff and trying again hard to avoid the context and who he is speaking to. As I showed he spoke these things to the 12 apostles and these truths extend to all who are sent of all time. Judas and the 11 were of his household because they were the found sheep sent to the lost sheep and his disciples.
I almost had to laugh out loud at this. "My made up stuff", indeed.
Did I make up John 6:64?
You seem to be getting a bit testy, so it would appear that our conversation has neared its end. I will see this post through to completion, though.
I already showed you that to betray someone you have to first have their trust. Judas was in the ministry and called and sent by Jesus as an apostle. To foreknow something doesn't mean God made it happen or made any sin. We already looked at Lucifer who was perfect in all his ways and walked with God in relationship then fell and will end up in the lake of fire.
Yes; I addressed this above.
Does Jesus trust a man if he was always a devil as you say, and call him a familiar friend? No. Judas was loved and an apostle sent one who was ordained by Jesus. Jesus doesn't make mistakes.
I never said he was a devil. Honestly, I wonder how you come up with things like this.
What I said was what Scripture says -- that Judas did not believe in Jesus, and thus he was never saved.
wrong no writer quotes verses out of context, the verses about being blotted out are in the next few verses in context. You error here greatly.
"25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
the same ones spoken of in context. You need to reconsider your words here.
Sorry, no. There are a number of places throughout the New Testament where the writers quote single or a few verses from Psalms and elsewhere. They do this because the spirit behind these specific verses applies to the moment and situation in which the verses are quoted.
Jesus even did this himself in Luke 4:18-21 and Matthew 26:31, among others, referencing Isaiah 61:1-2, Isaiah 58:6, and Zechariah 13:7, respectively.
Or do you believe that the entirety of the quoted chapters applied to the specific situations in that moment?
Yet again I am forced to wonder if you indeed listen to the holy spirit. You have a number of beliefs that are neither Scriptural nor correct.
All men have a choice to choose life or death and to believe or not. No man is a robot as some false teachers imply with their erroneous doctrines. Judas was shown in prophecy to fall. But Lucifer also was seen to fall by God. This does not delete the fact that Judas was once a saved man and that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways and a covering cherub blessed at one time. You again misunderstand prophecy .
You keep insisting Judas was saved, but this flies in the face of John 6:64. Honestly, I'm getting very tired of saying that. Scripture shows you to be wrong. You may believe as you will.
If all men indeed had a choice, as you say, then Paul would not have said via the holy spirit that the chosen were predestined.
You are going to have to decide whether a man's salvation depends on man or on God. If it were the former, it would be by works, and man would thus have grounds to boast. But if it is the latter, then it is by grace. Ephesians 2:8-9.
Until you are ready to let God be God, you cannot know him as you ought. The good news is that this is by design for the present time, but there is hope for the future.
and Judas by transgression fell. Fell from what? how can he fall if he was always fallen as some wrongly teach? He fell from God and the ministry and calling of God and went to his own place, damned lost as jesus said. Better to never have been born that to betray the Son of God. Espescially after he had soo many blessings and was called and chosen and given power and had the Spirit of the father speaking in him at one time. We could also say that Lucifer had such things in a different way as a perfect being created by God.
Now here, you are actually very close to the truth, and this gives me some degree of hope.
It is not my position that Judas was always fallen (any more than the rest of us are/were); he was simply doomed to destruction. My position is simply that he was never saved, and the Bible bears this out.
You do go a bit beyond what is written here. He was indeed called and chosen as a disciple and an apostle and given power, and it was from these that he fell. However, the only spirit that is documented as interacting with him (and even entering him) is Satan; I know of no verse that either states or implies that the spirit of the Father ever spoke to him.
In conclusion I have rebuked and corrected you on almost every point, I could correct every point you made but some overall and are similar. You desire to be true but are found in falsehood and following the teachings and bias of man made doctrines.
It is my hope that you will repent of your erroneous teachings and ask for wisdom from God and prayerfully consider what I wrote with an open heart and mind
If you only knew how many thousands and thousands of times I have asked for God's wisdom over the years... I always do so before writing on the forums here, and my posts in this thread are no exception. You may be confident that you are getting the benefit of the wisdom that God has given me on this topic, expressed in my own flawed, human way but carried by the holy spirit.
I do not expect to have convinced you of anything in all that I have written. You seem quite content to be right in your own eyes. It would not be inaccurate to say that I have felt rather like Elihu speaking to Job.
The only question that remains for me is whether or not you will feel inspired to humble yourself as Job did before the Almighty God in the name of our Lord Jesus.
For my part, I am finished here. In part, this is simply because I lack the time to continue, as work demands have increased significantly of late. In part, it is because I wish to spend my time here helping others as time permits and not engaged in fruitless verbal jousting. And in part, it is because I feel that I have said all I can say on this subject and must let what has been said stand.
May the Lord do as he wishes with what I have written here, and may you abound in grace and peace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Daryl
