Hell

דוד חֵן (David) · Oct 30, 2016

antletems said:
Heaven and hell are on earth now. The kingdom of God is within us.

Hell when we die is as God has said it will be. As will Heaven be.

Sir, if only you can provide for me a biblically sound statement, then, perhaps I will take your statement seriously.

Goatee · Oct 30, 2016

דוד חֵן (David) said:
Sir, if only you can provide for me a biblically sound statement, then, perhaps I will take your statement seriously.

Oh dear, Sola Scripture guy are you?

WisdomandLove · Oct 30, 2016

Galatea said:
I have been thinking a lot about sound and light lately. I have been thinking of Hell as an absence of sound and light, being cast into the outer darkness without God. Just read the first few verses of John about in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Darkness is the absence of light, He is the Light and the Sound. I have been thinking for years that total separation from God would be much worse as a Hell than a literal fire. Torment would be without Christ, the absence of the Light and Sound.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm percolating some theories here. I believe the Bible is the inherent Word of God, but I don't know if we could really comprehend what Hell is- total annhilation of the soul (absence of sound and light) and perhaps describing it as fire is the only way himans can begin to understand the continuous torture of being without God. I think about the lines in the Bible about being cast into the outer darkness.

The Bible uses the following Greek and Hebrew words, which have been mistranslated as ‘Hell.’ They are: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus. When we read and study the Hebrew word ‘sheol’, the Greek word ‘hades’, we uncover that the radical or primary meaning is, ‘The place or state of the dead.’ The word ‘Tartarus’ is used ONLY ONCE in the Bible but not in relation to humans and refers to the ‘deepest abyss of Hades.’ ‘Tartarus’ is essentially the same as ‘hades’ or ‘Sheol.’  So the definition ‘Tartarus’ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BURNING! It is plain that there is no reference here to a place of endless torment after death. The word Yeshua used to refer to the garbage pit, ‘Gehenna’, and the Anglo-Saxon word ‘hell’, is also a word that has been misrepresented and mistranslated to refer to a place of eternal torment. The truth is ‘hell’ is NOT in the Bible. Many Bible translations quite correctly, do not include the word ‘hell’ at all. A few cases in point are: Young’s Literal Translation, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, Fenton’s Holy Bible in Modern English, New American Bible, Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Christian Bible, World English Bible, Holy Bible in its Original Order and many others. The church after 30 CE developed a religion that suited its purposes. It added much that was never in the ‘good news’ Yeshua proclaimed, including the myth of hell. We know from Yeshua's teaching that hell is incompatible with the God he describes. If it had been the central tenet of Yeshua's teaching, he would have told his listeners about it!

WisdomandLove · Oct 30, 2016

Der Alter said:
Your research seems to be lacking.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223,)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

It all boils down to the controversy over the exact meaning of ‘Gehenna.’ This is a Greek transliteration of geographical terms ge-hinnom and ge-ben-hinnom, which mean the ‘Valley of the sons of Hinnom.’ In the Old Testament it signifies the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (Joshua 15:8; 2 Chronicles 33:6) and refer to an actual valley just outside ancient Jerusalem. This valley surrounded the western and southern walls of Jerusalem. In the southeasterly part of this valley, the refuse of the city was burnt. This was the place in which some early Israelites burnt their children to the pagan god Moloch (2 Chronicles 28:3). An altar raised up for this purpose gave the name Tophet also to the area (Isaiah 30:33).

In the time of Christ the heathen idolatry had ceased in the Valley of Hinnom. However, some scholars contend that there were still fires in the southeastern region for the burning of the city refuse. The prevailing winds in Jerusalem are normally from the west or northwest and burning the garbage in this area of Gehenna normally kept the nauseous smoke away from the main part of the city. This city dump for the destruction of the refuse from Jerusalem typically served as a sign of the divine destruction, which could come through God’s fiery judgments (Jeremiah 7:31–32; 19:11–14). Nevertheless, though the tradition is pretty old, there is no empirical evidence to support it.

The prophetic determinations of God often involve fire. This is because the sins of Jerusalem in the time of Jeremiah were so great God said through the prophet that He would bring "unquenchable fires" upon the city,

‘But if you will not hearken to Me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.’ Jeremiah 17:27

This was accomplished precisely according to 2 Chronicles 36:19 and Jeremiah 52:13. The fires of judgment burnt down Jerusalem completely. But as soon as the destruction of the city was over, the fires went out. They extinguished themselves back in the 6th century B.C.E. They were "unquenchable" back at that time in the sense that no one was able to put them out until they had performed their prophesied duty. Likewise, Isaiah said that in a future time (Isaiah 66:24), the carcasses [dead bodies] of people who rebel against God will be given over to maggots for consumption. These worms will not die until they have consumed the bodies assigned to them. Other dead bodies will be set alight and "neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24). These fires are prophesied to destroy the bodies of certain wicked people and God will not allow anyone to put out the fires — they are unquenchable. Obviously though, the worms are not immortal and the fires will finally go out of themselves when they have accomplished their tasks.

Needless to say, the fires in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) were not eternal — they have long ago ceased. You can walk through Gehenna or drive cars through it today. There are no longer any fires there. Indeed, there is a prophecy in Jeremiah that ‘the whole valley of the dead bodies [Gehenna]’ will be made ‘holy unto the Lord’ (Jeremiah 31:40). The prophecy shows that the burning of dead things in the region will permanently stop. Gehenna will even become ‘holy.’ This demonstrates that even the symbol of Gehenna as a place where dead bodies and refuse are burnt will cease as a fit type of God’s destructive power.

דוד חֵן (David) · Oct 30, 2016

antletems said:
Oh dear, Sola Scripture guy are you?

Papa Francisco are you not?

Goatee · Oct 30, 2016

דוד חֵן (David) said:
Papa Francisco are you not?

No, For Jesus 100%

Der Alte · Oct 30, 2016

WisdomandLove said:
It all boils down to the controversy over the exact meaning of ‘Gehenna.’ This is a Greek transliteration of geographical terms ge-hinnom and ge-ben-hinnom, which mean the ‘Valley of the sons of Hinnom.’ In the Old Testament it signifies the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (Joshua 15:8; 2 Chronicles 33:6) and refer to an actual valley just outside ancient Jerusalem. This valley surrounded the western and southern walls of Jerusalem. In the southeasterly part of this valley, the refuse of the city was burnt. This was the place in which some early Israelites burnt their children to the pagan god Moloch (2 Chronicles 28:3). An altar raised up for this purpose gave the name Tophet also to the area (Isaiah 30:33).

So far so good. But then this digresses off into internet legend not factual history.

In the time of Christ the heathen idolatry had ceased in the Valley of Hinnom. However, some scholars contend that there were still fires in the southeastern region for the burning of the city

refuse. The prevailing winds in Jerusalem are normally from the west or northwest and burning the garbage in this area of Gehenna normally kept the nauseous smoke away from

the main part of the city. This city dump for the destruction of the refuse from Jerusalem typically served as a sign of the divine destruction, which could come through God’s fiery judgments (Jeremiah 7:31–32; 19:11–14).

Nevertheless, though the tradition is pretty old, there is no empirical evidence to support it.
The prophetic determinations of God often involve fire. This is because the sins of Jerusalem in the

time of Jeremiah were so great God said through the prophet that He would bring "unquenchable fires" upon the city,
‘But if you will not hearken to Me to hallow the

Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and

it shall not be quenched.’ Jeremiah 17:27

This was accomplished precisely according to 2 Chronicles 36:19 and Jeremiah 52:13. The fires of judgment burnt down Jerusalem completely. But as soon as the destruction of the city was over, the fires went out.

They extinguished themselves back in the 6th century B.C.E. They were "unquenchable" back at that time in the sense that no one was able to put them out until they had performed their prophesied duty. Likewise, Isaiah

said that in a future time (Isaiah 66:24), the carcasses [dead bodies] of people who rebel against God will be given over to maggots for consumption. These worms will not die until they have consumed the bodies assigned to them. Other

dead bodies will be set alight and "neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24). These fires are prophesied to destroy the bodies of certain wicked people and God will not allow anyone to put out the fires — they are

unquenchable. Obviously though, the worms are not immortal and the fires will finally go out of themselves when they have accomplished their tasks.
Needless to say, the fires in the Valley of Hinnom

(Gehenna) were not eternal — they have long ago ceased. You can walk through Gehenna or drive cars through it today. There are no longer any fires there. Indeed, there is a prophecy in Jeremiah that ‘the whole valley of the

dead bodies [Gehenna]’ will be made ‘holy unto the Lord’ (Jeremiah 31:40). The prophecy shows that the burning of dead things in the region will permanently stop. Gehenna will even become ‘holy.’ This demonstrates that even the

symbol of Gehenna as a place where dead bodies and refuse are burnt will cease as a fit type of God’s destructive power.

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in

The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

Butch5 · Oct 30, 2016

Galatea said:
I have been thinking a lot about sound and light lately. I have been thinking of Hell as an absence of sound and light, being cast into the outer darkness without God. Just read the first few verses of John about in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Darkness is the absence of light, He is the Light and the Sound. I have been thinking for years that total separation from God would be much worse as a Hell than a literal fire. Torment would be without Christ, the absence of the Light and Sound.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm percolating some theories here. I believe the Bible is the inherent Word of God, but I don't know if we could really comprehend what Hell is- total annhilation of the soul (absence of sound and light) and perhaps describing it as fire is the only way himans can begin to understand the continuous torture of being without God. I think about the lines in the Bible about being cast into the outer darkness.

It seems your idea is based on the premise that man can live apart from the body. If that is the case the premise is wrong. Hell as a place or Eternal torment is a Greek idea not a Biblical one.

Butch5 · Oct 30, 2016

Galatea said:
That's not what I meant, I am talking about people who go to Hell for not accepting Christ. I've been thinking about sound and light, energy- and God being sound and light, and Hell being separated from God and thus separated from sound and light, and wonder if this is what Hell will be, but the Bible expresses it as fire because we can't understand an existence devoid of sound and light.

The Bible expresses Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, as fire. Hell is an English word. Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment is not what is found in Scripture.

Der Alte · Oct 30, 2016

Butch5 said:
. . . Hell as a place or Eternal torment is a Greek idea not a Biblical one.

Indeed? See my post immediately above yours.

WisdomandLove · Oct 30, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
God judges and God punishes, but for a time and for a purpose. The time period is "of the age" not forever, and the purpose is to burn up, not the sinner, but the sinner's dross, his chaff, his wood, hay and stubble. I'm not good at remembering chapter and verse, but I am good at remembering concepts, and I know God said that He wounds and He heals, kills and makes alive, but nowhere does He say that He "sends to Hell." On the contrary, when God was complaining of the Israelite practice of burning their children to some pagan entity I don't care to name or call a god, He told them that such a thing had never entered His Mind. Hear that?! People believe that God sends sinners and the wicked to Hell, but God states that He never even thought of such a thing!

If you believe in God, and that He tells it to you straight, you must stop and think that one over...

God is not in the punishment business. What we do not have is an objectively establishable history which justifies certain beliefs about a morally active God. We have EXPRESSIONS of such beliefs embodied in the very form of the narratives. The character of the biblical narratives is of a symbolic representation of particular theistic beliefs.

Butch5 · Oct 30, 2016

Der Alter said:
Indeed? See my post immediately above yours.

I saw your post.

WisdomandLove · Oct 30, 2016

Der Alter said:
So far so good. But then this digresses off into internet legend not factual history.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in

The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

Thank you for your reply. I’ve noted your appeal to ‘argumentum ad nauseam’ ie the fallacy of trying to prove something by repeating it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat it, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to repeat the truth; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments. Moreover, I have noted too, shades of “argumentum ad verecundiam’ the fallacy of your appeal to authority. You’re trying to demonstrate truth of your proposition by citing inter alia, Jewish Encyclopedia and The school of Hillel. Here again, we can have expertise that have strands of data from various sources which have grown in a complex developing way out of the historical, Jewish communities.

Perhaps it would pay dividends to ponder other points of view on the captioned subject. You may find the following interesting:

• The Inventors and Perpetrators of Hell (Gary Amirault, Acrobat .pdf format)  This explanation contains a list of ancient philosophers who developed the hell myth and a list of famous Christian theologians who continued perpetuated the myth in spite of the fact that it had no Biblical basis.

•  The Savior of the World Series on Hell (J. Preston Eby, Web page)

•  The Real Meaning of the Rich Man and Lazarus  (Ernest Martin, Ph.D.)

•  What does Hell look like?  (Ernest Martin, Ph.D., Tentmaker Ministries, Gary Amirault, Web site)

•  Jesus' Teaching on Hell (Samuel G. Dawson) Most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible.

•  The Case Against Hell (Mercy Aiken, with Gary Amirault)  An article that asks some very important questions about the history of the doctrine of Hell.

•  The Lake of Fire  (J. Preston Eby)  An examination of the words used in the church in the light of the original Greek and rest of scripture. (such as the Lake of Fire).

•  Hell is Leaving the Bible "Forever."  (http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStudy/HellChart.html)  The word "hell" is disappearing from the pages of English Bible translations and HAS already completely disappeared from many of them. Scholars are beginning to see that a few key ancient words should not have been translated to mean "eternal."

•  The Bible Hell  (John Wesley Hanson, Ph.D.)  A book by Dr. John Wesley Hanson detailing the history of the English word "hell." He also goes into thorough detail discussing the Greek and Hebrew words, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

 The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (Thomas Thayer, D.D.)  A book by Thomas Thayer proving the teaching of Hell and Everlasting Punishment was added to Christianity centuries after Jesus walked this earth.  

Der Alte · Oct 30, 2016

WisdomandLove said:
Thank you for your reply. I’ve noted your appeal to ‘argumentum ad nauseam’ ie the fallacy of trying to prove something by repeating it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat it, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place.

And you have resorted to the logical fallacy "appeal to authority" "If I just throw a bunch of scholars names who supposedly are experts in some field or other I can overwhelm any historical evidence my opponents provides."

Of course, it is not a fallacy to repeat the truth; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments. Moreover, I have noted too, shades of “argumentum ad verecundiam’ the fallacy of your appeal to authority.

Where are your real arguments? You quite evidently do not know what "appeal to authority" means. Before you make the accusation again I suggest you look it up. Citing evidence from a recognized expert in the field is not "argumentum, ad vercundum"

You’re trying to demonstrate truth of your proposition by citing inter alia, Jewish Encyclopedia and The school of Hillel. Here again, we can have expertise that have strands of data from various sources which have grown in a complex developing way out of the historical, Jewish communities.

Please let me know when you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that refutes anything I cited from the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia. A modern scholar saying "Nuh Uh the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia are wrong I'm the expert and I'm right." does not make it so just because that is what someone wants to hear.

Perhaps it would pay dividends to ponder other points of view on the captioned subject. You may find the following interesting:

You should take your own advice. I note you are a disciple of tentmaker which is run by a husband and wife team with no stated qualifications in Hebrew, Greek or Bible history. I'm not interested in lay opinions

• The Inventors and Perpetrators of Hell (Gary Amirault,
•  The Savior of the World Series on Hell (J. Preston Eby,
•  The Real Meaning of the Rich Man and Lazarus  (Ernest Martin, Ph.D.)
•  What does Hell look like?  (Ernest Martin, Ph.D., Tentmaker Ministries, Gary Amirault,
•  Jesus' Teaching on Hell (Samuel G. Dawson) 
•  The Case Against Hell (Mercy Aiken, with Gary Amirault)  
•  The Lake of Fire  (J. Preston Eby)
•  Hell is Leaving the Bible "Forever."  
•  The Bible Hell  (John Wesley Hanson, Ph.D.)  
 The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (Thomas Thayer, D.D.)
 

I have omitted all the hoo hah you posted. First if you wish to have a discussion with me, you do your own research and present it here. Don't even think about trying to copy/paste a bunch of canned arguments from tentmaker or another similar website. You locate the primary source, and you formulate your argument based on that evidence. Opinions of a plethora scholars without credible, verifiable, historical evidence does not impress me. So if you have any such evidence present it here and I will consider it. My guess is you have no such evidence or you would have presented it already. Let the games begin.

Der Alte · Oct 30, 2016

Butch5 said:
I saw your post.

...and ignored it. Evidently the credible, verifiable, historical evidence I presented does not fit someone's agenda.

WisdomandLove · Oct 30, 2016

Der Alter said:
And you have resorted to the logical fallacy "appeal to authority" "If I just throw a bunch of scholars names who supposedly are experts in some field or other I can overwhelm any historical evidence my opponents provides."

Where are your real arguments? You quite evidently do not know what "appeal to authority" means. Before you make the accusation again I suggest you look it up. Citing evidence from a recognized expert in the field is not "argumentum, ad vercundum"

Please let me know when you can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that refutes anything I cited from the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia. A modern scholar saying "Nuh Uh the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia are wrong I'm the expert and I'm right." does not make it so just because that is what someone wants to hear.

You should take your own advice. I note you are a disciple of tentmaker which is run by a husband and wife team with no stated qualifications in Hebrew, Greek or Bible history. I'm not interested in lay opinions

I have omitted all the hoo hah you posted. First if you wish to have a discussion with me, you do your own research and present it here. Don't even think about trying to copy/paste a bunch of canned arguments from tentmaker or another similar website. You locate the primary source, and you formulate your argument based on that evidence. Opinions of a plethora scholars without credible, verifiable, historical evidence does not impress me. So if you have any such evidence present it here and I will consider it. My guess is you have no such evidence or you would have presented it already. Let the games begin.

Seems like I have hit a raw nerve. Actually ‘am not a disciple of tentmaker. I posted the links so you could read opinions of other qualified people not the opinion of the husband and wife team who run the site. I thought you would review the data and post a rebuttal. But I was wrong. Instead, you throw up a ‘red herring’ with lashings of a ‘straw man’. Your statement that you are not interested in lay opinions is laden with the leaven of the Pharisees. So, let’s go to the source, Christ Jesus and find out what credentials He had. Tell me about his background, especially his formal education. Did he attend seminary? Did he have degrees from Jerusalem Tech? How many and in what special line of theology? And what about the twelve apostles, do you reckon they all had seminary schooling from Jerusalem Tech?

The first thing the Pharisees said regarding the ministry of Jesus Christ was, "Is this not the CARPENTER'S SON?" "Can anything GOOD come out of Nazareth?" And they perceived that the Apostles were UNLEARNED, that is they didn't have any theological degrees from the local theological cemetery, sorry, I mean seminary.

Btw, Dr. John Wesley Hanson and Dr. Thomas B. Thayer, DD, the latter who has been described as "a biblical scholar of rare breadth" (Virtual American Biographies, 2006). He devoted considerable study to the theology of hell and wrote The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (1855), still a standard treatise widely quoted. Therefore your dismissal at a stroke tells me you are not really interested in truth and your research when weighed in the balance is found wanting.

I will not present my credentials here because that is sure to hit another of your exposed nerves. But let me take this opportunity to bring this correspondence to an end. So it’s goodbye from me.

May God be with your spirit as you seek out his profound truths.

Sammy-San · Oct 30, 2016

Galatea said:
Hell was not created for people. It was created for Satan and the fallen angels. People do not go to Hell for sinning. If that were the case, everyone would go to Hell. People only go to Hell for rejecting Christ. That is it, no other reason. I don't see Hell as punishment for sin, but as separation from God because people refuse to accept Him on His terms, through the sacrifice of Christ.

Why do you think Satan wasn't cast into hell before the temptation of Adam and Eve?

Butch5 · Oct 31, 2016

Der Alter said:
...and ignored it. Evidently the credible, verifiable, historical evidence I presented does not fit someone's agenda.

No. we had this discussion before and it went nowhere. What you presented is demonstrably wrong. it can be shown from Scripture. However, even if it was the case it doesn't prove that's where it entered the Christian faith.

Lazarus Short · Oct 31, 2016

WisdomandLove said:
God is not in the punishment business. What we do not have is an objectively establishable history which justifies certain beliefs about a morally active God. We have EXPRESSIONS of such beliefs embodied in the very form of the narratives. The character of the biblical narratives is of a symbolic representation of particular theistic beliefs.

I agree with you - punishment is not God's primary business, BUT He does use His rod of correction, like any loving Father. I know, He lined me out about my life in the fall of 1991, and what He told me then was the Rock upon which I rested while my personal pain subsided. He forgave me too.

Perhaps we do lack "an objectively establishable history which justifies certain beliefs about a morally active God" but faith fills in the rest, and the Bible serves very well, whether you think it is objectively establish-able history or not.

Der Alte · Oct 31, 2016

WisdomandLove said:
Seems like I have hit a raw nerve. Actually ‘am not a disciple of tentmaker. I posted the links so you could read opinions of other qualified people not the opinion of

the husband and wife team who run the site. I thought you would review the data and post a rebuttal. But I was wrong. Instead, you throw up a ‘red herring’ with lashings of a

‘straw man’. Your statement that you are not interested in lay opinions is laden with the leaven of the Pharisees. So, let’s go to the source, Christ Jesus and find out what credentials He had. Tell me about his background, especially his formal education.

Thank you for your opinion and standard heterodox dismissals. I don't think I have ever been called a Pharisee before.

Did he attend seminary? Did he have degrees from Jerusalem Tech? How many and in what special line of theology? And what about the twelve apostles, do you reckon they all had seminary schooling from Jerusalem Tech?

Irrelevant! You are not Jesus neither is anyone you alluded to. Would you go to a doctor or lawyer who did not have degrees?

The first thing the Pharisees said regarding the ministry of Jesus Christ was, "Is this not the CARPENTER'S SON?" "Can anything GOOD come out of Nazareth?" And they perceived that

More irrelevant smoke screen.

the Apostles were UNLEARNED, that is they didn't have any theological degrees from the local theological cemetery, sorry, I mean seminary.

Right there just disqualified everything else you have said. I think that is called poisoning the well.

Btw, Dr. John Wesley Hanson and Dr. Thomas B. Thayer, DD, the latter who has been described as "a biblical scholar of rare breadth" (Virtual American Biographies, 2006).

He devoted considerable study to the theology of hell and wrote

The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (1855), still a standard treatise widely quoted.

Therefore your dismissal at a stroke tells me you are not really interested in truth and your research when weighed in the balance is found wanting.

Thayer was a Unitarian so everything he wrote reflected his theology. I'm not interested in chasing down every link someone posts.

I will not present my credentials here because that is sure to hit another of your exposed nerves. But let me take this opportunity to bring this correspondence to an end. So it’s goodbye from me.

May God be with your spirit as you seek out his profound truths.

One does not need credentials to discuss scripture only when they present their assumptions/presuppositions as authoritative. Some folks don't seem to understand this is a discussion forum. Discussion means people talk to one another. Posting a bunch of links is not discussion. If I followed every link someone posts here I would be doing nothing else. Do what you have to do but that will not deter me from pointing out false teachings and errors.

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