Which Law? What Rules?

com7fy8

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how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?
The rules are not only verbal, but how things work in God's love.

For example > "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear" (in 1 John 4:18).
 
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John Hyperspace

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There is the Jewish Law and there is the commands of Jesus, summed up in the Great Commandments, the sermon on the mount, and Matthew 25.

And what are the consequences for you if those rules are broken? Is the new covenant broken and annulled?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?
This relates to the earlier verses about the struggle that Paul notices between his mind and his flesh. Sometimes the word 'carnal' is also used to represent the flesh or sin nature.

The Law of God is all of the things that are perfect and just. What His Son is and the life His Son lived. The flesh/carnality/sin is what we each have inside of us. That inherent desire to still want to sin and please self. What Paul was saying is that these two premises what God is (perfect without sin) and our being sanctified are at war with our flesh, carnal, sin nature.

It is a war inside of us where we want to follow God but that the flesh is weak. In Christ, Paul feels strong in what he knows and who he (Paul) wants to be, but then when he acts or in his actions he does what is contrary to God because his flesh is weak.

Notice these verses.

Romans 7:14-25

The Conflict of Two Natures


14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very ev il that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

This is a very important premise to understand. Some people think that because we are a new creation in Christ when we are saved, that we loose our sin nature/flesh/carnality but we do not. And the two war in us. But as we learn to control our fleshly/sin side, we become more like Christ doing the law or will of God.

Does that make sense?
 
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ToBeLoved

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And what are the consequences for you if those rules are broken? Is the new covenant broken and annulled?
The New Covenant cannot be annulled.

That is a very important thing to understand. As soon as we become saved, we are sealed in the Holy Spirit, God Himself. The seal is a bond/binding contract between us and God, just like the Old Covenant was a binding contract between the Israelite's/Hebrews and God.

Now the Hebrews broke the Old Covenant, so God made the New Covenant unbreakable. Just like in the Old Testament how the Israelite's/Hebrews did not obey the Law written on tablets (10 Commandements) so in the New Covenant God wrote His Law and Word on our hearts. The New Covenant is the BETTER Covenant because it is in the blood of the Only Begotten Son. It is permanant, there will never need to be another. This Covenant is what all the OT Patriarch's waited for..

Jesus brought in the superior Covenant, all that the Old Covenant was not, was what God put in the New Covenant in His Son's blood.

Romans 11:29

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Romans 8:16

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Can you believe that, we are actually co-heirs with Christ to the Father, God Himself.


27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Isaiah 43:14
13"Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

Romans 8:37-39

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Other versions of the verse above say in heaven or on earth, which I like better than the NASB version because it shows that not even we can break the covenant. We change ownership. We are crucified with Christ in His death and made a new creation. That is not reversable.

Unreal what God gives us.
 
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Soyeong

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I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27

What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

God has said that what He commanded was for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:13), so straightforwardly, obedience to God's law is about demonstrating our faith in God about how we should live, so it is the law of faith, and the way in which Paul said that our faith upholds the law a few verses later (Romans 3:31). However, it is not our obedience to the law that justifies us, but rather we are justified by the faith that leads us to obey God, so we are justified by faith apart from obedience to the law. If we were justified by our obedience to God, then we could have room for boasting because that would be about what we did rather than about what God did.

There is an important dynamic in the discussion about laws in the NT in that the Jews had many laws, customs, traditions of the elder, rulings, and fences that they they taught for how to obey God's law that many taught were needed to be obeyed in order to become saved (Acts 15, Galatians). For example, the Mishna contains 24 chapters worth of traditions for just how to keep the Sabbath. Paul used the phrase "works of law" as a catchall phrase to refer to these manmade laws and they are not of faith because they depend on our own obedience to them in order to become saved rather than on faith in Jesus.

Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?

Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?

In Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic law and everything listed as fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with the law, which should come as no surprise because the Mosaic law was given by God and the Spirit is God. So in verse 5:18, it doesn't make any sense to interpret it as saying that we aren't under the Mosaic law if we are led by the Spirit, especially because the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), but rather it is the law of sin that stirs up the works of the flesh that we are not under if we are led by the Spirit

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Similarly, the Mosaic law is not the law where sin had dominion over us, but it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 7, Paul said that God's law is holy, righteous, and good, that it is the good he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin that was stirring up sin and working within him to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the law of sin, and by extension the law of sin and death, is in opposition to God's law.

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the "law of liberty"? Does it have "rules"? How do rules liberate? Are rules not, restrictive? Chains?

According to Psalms 119:45, God's law is a law of liberty and it is sin, which is the transgression of God's law, that puts us in bondage (1 John 3:4). The land of the free is not a land where there are no laws, but rather it is land where we use our freedoms responsibly, which requires laws. The freedom of speech does not permit us to shout "FIRE!" in a theater, so when our freedoms are abused they can have tragic consequences. True freedom is not having the opportunity to do whatever we want, but rather it is having the opportunity to do what we ought, so the Mosaic law is a law of liberty because it instructs us how to use our freedoms responsibly in the way that we ought.

When answering, please be as specific as possible so that one might know what "rules" they are under and if they are obligated to perform these rules, and the consequence of not doing so. If one has placed themselves under a set of rules to follow, how is boasting "excluded" from one's ability to perform these rules?

The Mosaic law was given because of transgression to reveal what sin is and without the law we would not know what sin is (Romans 7:7), so the consequence of breaking God's law is that we have sinned and that we need to repent. When Jesus was telling people to repent from their sins for the Kingdom of God was at hand, he was telling people to repent from their disobedience to the Mosaic law, so repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic law is a central part of the gospel message. Boasting is excluded because the Mosaic law has never been about our ability to obey it, but about demonstrating our faith and love and thereby building a relationship with God.

Bonus question: if there is no consensus given in the thread as to the "rules" of the new covenant; how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?

If you believe that Jesus set a perfectly sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic law, and you believe that Jesus practiced what he preached and preached what he practiced, then you should believe that his commands were the same was the laws that he walked out. Furthermore, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who abide in him ought to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6). According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, and according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6 the way to tell that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for God, even if they performed signs and wonders, is if they tried to lead God's people away from following what He had commanded. While the Bible says that the New Covenant is based on superior promises and has a superior mediator, it does not say that it has superior laws because it does not involve following a superior God. In other words, if there were a way of doing what is righteous that was superior to the way that God revealed of how to act in line with His righteousness, then that would involve following a different God with superior righteousness.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27
What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

The Law of works is the Old Covenant which was based on keeping the Law. The Law is very clear that if you break one part of the law you have broken all of it. Notice though in verse 28 (below) the verse right after it says "apart from the works of the Law" that is the Law of Moses/10 Commandments. So God is drawing a contrast between the Covenant that is by faith, New Covenant and the Covenant that is by the Law, Old Covenant.

So God then asks about boasting. Who can boast in being deemed righteous by God through nothing that we can do, nothing that we can work for, nothing except faith. No one can boast in having something they could in no way earn for themelves. A free gift. Who can boast that they have earned a free gift. Unmerited favor. Nothing they deserve, but freely given based only on faith. Given only for love, because He loved us before we ever loved Him. And in this Christ shows us true love. A love that is based on nothing we can ever do or deserve, but only something that only He could do that He hands to us free.

Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?
The Law of the Spirit (notice the capital 'S' which denotes diety or God), so this is the Holy Spirit.

The Law of the Spirit is all that God is, perfection no sin. What Jesus was, what the Father is, what God is.

The Law of sin and death is the consequence for sin. Because sin is what separates one for eternity from God. And someone who is without God, without all that is good, is spiritually dead. This is why in Romans it tells us that Jesus has brought us from death to life. From being spiritually dead in our sin, which separates us from God to being spiritually alive, reconciled back to God because Jesus Christ justifies (deems us righteous and gives us His righteousness) therefore taking away all of our sin and presenting us to the Father without sin.

We know that this is acceptable to the Father because the Father says of the Son that 'in His Son He is well pleased' and the ressurection of Jesus shows that the Father accepted His sacrfice as well as the thunder and speaking from heaven right when Jesus died.

Jesus said that He could have raised Himself, but that He does not to the glory of His Father. The Father raised Christ from the dead to show His pleased with His Son's sacrifice.
 
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Open Heart

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Law of faith would see that you live with much faith. The just shall live by faith.
So no rules need to be taught? What about no idolatry, no fornication, no slander, no homosexual acts, and other commandments taught in the New Testament?
 
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Open Heart

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There is the Jewish Law and there is the commands of Jesus, summed up in the Great Commandments, the sermon on the mount, and Matthew 25.
You are so right. The Great Commandments, and the principles taught in the Sermon on the Mount, are all contained in the Torah, which any Rabbi can show you.

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord Leviticus 19:18
 
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dqhall

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You are so right. The Great Commandments, and the principles taught in the Sermon on the Mount, are all contained in the Torah, which any Rabbi can show you.
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord Leviticus 19:18

Jesus required more than these laws from the Torah. Jesus asked us to love our enemies (Matt. 5:44). This requires faith.

It is better to bless a person than to attack a person. In showing kindness to those who hate you, you might lessen their case against you and others with you.

As the nations of the world trained their soldiers to attack, some are in danger from members of their own families and neighbors.
 
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I have questions about the "rules" and the "law" given in order to fulfill the word of the new covenant. Here are some verses I'm pondering:

Romans 3:27

What is the difference between the "law of works" and the "law of faith"? What are the "laws" of each, and how does the latter "exclude boasting"?

Well, if you were to read the surrounding context or the chapter in Romans 3, you would see that this is talking about Initial Salvation (or how we are ultimately saved) and not Sanctification (i.e. a Continued walk with the LORD whereby we let His good works flow thru us - Making us more holy). The context also tells us that this in reference to the Old Covenant Law and not all law whatesoever. For Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Last I checked, circumcision is a part of the Old Testament and not a part of the Commands in the New Testament. We also have to realize that the Pharisees (who were Jews) regulated salvation to a form of Works Alone Salvationism without a Savior (thru faith). One clue of this can be found in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee." For the pharisee did not humble himself before God by crying out to Him so as to have mercy (unlike the Tax Collector).

Anyways, to answer your first question: What is the "Law of works"?
While God does not want us be unfruitful or to not be unholy, the phrase "Works of the Law" used in Scripture refers to a false mindset that the Pharisees had about how we receive salvation (i.e. Justification). This was not in reference to how we continue in good works after we have accepted Christ by faith. But the "works of the Law" was a phrase for a false way of thinking by the Pharisees that they could be saved by merely keeping a set of rules (That included some of God's laws and some of their own) without a Savior and His mercy.

As for your second question: What is the "Law of Faith"?
The Law of Faith is simply putting your trust in the LORD (Jesus) that He can save you when you first come to accept Him as your Savior by calling out to Him to save you from your sins with a Godly sorrow. The Law of Faith is also a day by day walk with GOD whereby we trust Him (According to what He says in His Word). Obeying GOD and what He commands of us is key to truly saying to GOD that we do trust Him.

For example: If God told you to sit in a chair that you knew could not hold your weight, but God said for you to trust Him and sit in the chair anyways, your action of sitting in the chair would determine your level of trust in GOD.

The law of Faith is nothing new. Even men in the Old Testament applied the Law of Faith to their lives (See Hebrews 11). For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Meaning, we cannot keep God's Law on our own power or trust in a set of rules alone to save us (Without a Savior). Again, this does not mean we can just ignore God's Commands and just have a belief on Jesus so as to have our golden ticket to enter God's Kingdom. For it seems highly unlikely that Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved gospel is the narrow way that Jesus talks about. So the Law of Faith produces a life full of goodness and not evil and sin (if we are truly abiding in Christ).

John Hyperspace said:
Romans 7:25

As above, what is the difference between the "law of God" and the "law of sin"?

First, the bulk of Romans 7 is written from Paul's perspective of when he used to be a Jew before he became a Christian. However, even read in this way, Romans 7:25 appears to still be problematic to understand. Fortunately the Good News Translation sheds some light of understanding on Romans 7:25. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25).​

In other words, the person who does not have Jesus Christ cannot obtain true victory over their sin. On their own (without Jesus), they cannot keep God's Word or Law. The Pharisee in Paul's day could only serve what they believe to be God's law with their mind while they are ruled by their sin nature (i.e. the law of sin).

So what is the "Law of Sin" in Romans 7?
It is the sin nature.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." (Romans 7:23).

What is the "Law of God" in Romans 7 and 8?

The words "Law of God" in Romans 7 and Romans 8 can be read as a general phrase for meaning "obedience to God's Word." But if you want to get technical:

Well, in Romans 7, the "Law of God" are those Commands that the Jew thinks he needs to obey but cannot obey because he/she does not have Jesus Christ. So in this particular instance, the "Law of God" would be in reference to the Law of Moses (or the "righteousness" part of the Law of Moses (see Romans 8:4) that is still obeyed for the New Covenant believer today - like do not steal, do not murder, love your neighbor, etc. (Also see Romans 13:8-10)).

In Romans 8, the "Law of God" is in reference to God's Laws or Commands under the New Covenant.

John Hyperspace said:
Romans 8:2

The same question: what is the difference between the "law of the Spirt of life in Christ Jesus" and the "law of sin and death"; and how does the former "liberate" from the latter?

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is described in Romans 8:1. This is being in Christ Jesus and walking after the Spirit. By following this Law, one would fulfill God's Laws under the New Covenant and the righteous portion of the Old Law that is still applicable for New Covenant believers today (Like loving God and loving your neighbor). One is liberated or set free in following the Spirit (by being guided by God to obey those Commands in the New Covenant) vs. being in bondage to trying to make salvation about a set of rules alone (that ignores a Savior and His mercy) with a set of Laws that are no longer binding as a whole for the New Covenant believer. For many Old Testament Commands do not apply anymore. So making them a requirement and or as a way of salvation alone would be leading people into bondage. It's not that God is against Law. However, obedience to God's Laws (the proper ones in the right perspective) is a reflection of whether or not Christ lives within you or not (1 John 2:3-6).

John Hyperspace said:
James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What is the "law of liberty"? Does it have "rules"? How do rules liberate? Are rules not, restrictive? Chains?

The Law of Liberty is just another way of saying the Commands under the New Testament. These Commands are based on love. Hence, why James makes the point about how we are not to have respect of persons when we fellowship with other brothers and sisters (See James 2:12 and the surrounding context).

The Commands in the New Covenant are referred to as the perfect law of liberty because they are unlike the Commands in the Old Testament that can lead to a person's death if they disobeyed them. Also, one is set free from the bondage of sin if they obey the laws of love under the New Covenant. For if one submits themselves to GOD's Commands, they can be set free from such sins as inappropriate contentography, gambling, stealing, lying, idolatry, and hating, etc.

For example: The Constitution is a document that has laws in it that govern our freedom. So it is a law (document) of liberty (in a sense) because it gives you certain freedoms. Granted, it is not a perfect law of liberty like God's Commands in the New Testament, though.

John Hyperspace said:
When answering, please be as specific as possible so that one might know what "rules" they are under and if they are obligated to perform these rules, and the consequence of not doing so. If one has placed themselves under a set of rules to follow, how is boasting "excluded" from one's ability to perform these rules?

Take a pen and paper and sit down and prayerfully write down every verse that sounds like a command in the New Testament and you will have your rules that come from Christ (God). For why would God place all these Commands for you within the New Testament if He did not intend for you to keep them?

As for boasting in keeping God's Word: Well, Jesus said we cannot do anything without Him (John 15:5). So there is no boasting if it is Christ doing the good work in you.

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

For Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell that he had if he desired to be perfect. But he was not willing to do that and he went away sad. The disciples then said, who can be saved? Jesus said, with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible (See Matthew 19:21-22, and Matthew 19:25-26).

John Hyperspace said:
Bonus question: if there is no consensus given in the thread as to the "rules" of the new covenant; how can a man be sure he is following the right rules?

It's pretty simple. There are many verses that suggest that the Law has changed as a part of the change in the Covenants or Testaments. In fact, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. At Christ's death: The temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the Law on animal sacrificies was no longer acceptable. Even during Jesus's ministry before the cross, He changed the Law on an eye for an eye. He said to instead to turn the other cheek. Jesus was preparing people for the New Covenant (that would officially go into effect with His death upon the cross). For a testament is not in force until the death of the testator (i.e. Jesus). Also, after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, Peter was told to eat unclean animals by GOD. However, this was a violation of Old Covenant Law. But the Law had changed (Hebrews 7:12). For the Scriptures say that Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). For no man can put new wine into old wine skins (Matthew 9:17); And Paul said we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses or the 613 Old Covenant Commands) (Romans 6:14). We are to obey the Commands in the New Testament. For Paul said if any speak contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul said that what he has written should be regarded as the LORD's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).


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Open Heart

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Jesus required more than these laws from the Torah. Jesus asked us to love our enemies (Matt. 5:44). This requires faith.
""If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it.If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it." Exodus 23:4-5
"Do not hate your brother in your heart." Leviticus 19:17
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice" Proverbs 24:17
"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink." Proverbs 25:21
 
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OldWiseGuy

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""If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it.If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it." Exodus 23:4-5
"Do not hate your brother in your heart." Leviticus 19:17
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice" Proverbs 24:17
"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink." Proverbs 25:21

True. The old testament is filled with new testament concepts, i.e. do the right thing, even if it isn't proscribed by the Law. Act out of conscience, not just obedience.

Proverbs 25:21 is interesting. At the end of WW2 the Germans flocked to surrender to the British and Americans rather than the Russians because they knew they would be well treated, and fed. Surrender to the Russians was unthinkable and those who did or were captured by them suffered greatly.
 
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Open Heart

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True. The old testament is filled with new testament concepts, i.e. do the right thing, even if it isn't proscribed by the Law. Act out of conscience, not just obedience.
I believe that Jesus taught original ideas, but they were almost entirely with regards to himself, that he was the Messiah, the Son of God, and God himself, etc. With regards to the Law, he really didn't teach anything new, but you really have had to study the Law to know this, and most Christians are not interested in studying the Law. He was of a school of Phariseeical thought after Rabbi Hillel (which was at odds with the School of Shammai, which ruled the Sanhedron during his day--obviously why you see them arguing so much).

I just think God should get the credit for getting it right the first time around. I mean think about it. Why do Christians get the idea that the Law teaches mistakes? The Law is GOD'S teachings. Would God teach lies? Honestly, think about it. If the Law is wrong headed, what does that say about the God who gave it?

The New Covenant builds on the Old. It doesn't contradict it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I just think God should get the credit for getting it right the first time around. I mean think about it. Why do Christians get the idea that the Law teaches mistakes? The Law is GOD'S teachings. Would God teach lies? Honestly, think about it. If the Law is wrong headed, what does that say about the God who gave it?

The New Covenant builds on the Old. It doesn't contradict it.
The issue is that God Himself says the Old Covenant is inferior. It is so inferior that with the New Covenant the Old Covenant would pass away. So, I'm not sure if one does just not want to believe God but believe what they want to believe.

In the Old Testament it was made clear over and over and over that their would be a New Covenant. A Messiah. A High Priest that would never change, would never be replaced.

Hebrews 7:1-
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

4Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest’s office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. 6But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. 7But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. 9And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, 10for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

11Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

17For it is attested of Him,
“YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”

18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
“THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The issue is rebellion and not obedience. God gave His Son as the sacrifice for the New Covenant and those who still love and abide in the Old make His death of no consequence.

 
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Open Heart

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The issue is that God Himself says the Old Covenant is inferior.
That is NOT the same thing as saying that the New Covenant contradicts the Old Covenant.

To say there is a contradiction is to say the Old contains lies, and to say it contains lies is to say that God is a liar.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That is NOT the same thing as saying that the New Covenant contradicts the Old Covenant.

To say there is a contradiction is to say the Old contains lies, and to say it contains lies is to say that God is a liar.
The differences is the Covenants and what God is and was trying to accomplish during the time periods.

If not for the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law, no one would know what God considers sin to be, so the 10 Commandments teach us all about what God considers to be sin and what God considers to be love.

God always created the Old Covenant and law to be temporary, just as the Levitical sacrifices by the high priests were temporary until the Messiah. The Law was not meant to last, because under Jesus Christ God's Law has been written on our hearts. What God could not get the Israelite's to follow by writing His Law on tablets, He has now written on the hearts of His Own.

To see one as bad and one as good I think is very much the wrong approach. The Law was needed and given to the Israelite's to bring them to obedience, but now we have the New Covenant under the Lamb of God. And that cannot be denied.
 
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