Does Paul quote scripture out of context?

miknik5 · Oct 21, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
In another thread the question came up as to whether Paul quotes the OT honestly. I think he does not. Almost every time he quotes the Old Testament, if you look at the actual verses in context, you will find they are not saying what Paul claims they are saying. For instances, look at Romans 3:10-19:

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:10-19)

Paul is here quoting a number of verses as though they apply to everybody. But the verses he quotes in the Old Testament do not say that.

The first 3 verses are a loose paraphrase of Psalms 14:1-3. Psalms 14 in context is not saying that all are bad. Rather, it is saying that there are bad people that say no to Elohim (God), and there are righteous people who follow God. It is contrasting two groups of people. It is not saying all are bad.

The next verse appears to be from Jeremiah 5:16 which condemns a nation that is attacking the Jews, and says their quiver is an open grave. Paul changes "quiver" to "throat" and uses it to mean all men. Clearly Jeremiah was not saying that everyone was part of that invading army.

The verse about poison of snakes comes from Psalms 140:3, where the psalmist complains about some evil men coming after him. The psalmist is not saying everybody is an evil man coming at him, only some.

Next we read about a mouth full of cursing and bitterness, quoting Psalms 10:7, but again, this verse is talking about particular evil men attacking the psalmist, not that all are evil.

So I see here a collection of verses in the Old Testament about particular people doing bad things. One could also find a collection of verses about particular people doing good things. But Paul chooses the verses that speak of bad people doing bad things, strings them together, and uses them to prove a point. But Paul's point is not the point the original OT writers were making.

It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil. Rather we find that some are evil and some are good. And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

It applies to all
Are you willing to change the rules of HOLY worship before GOD?

And the rule was that only the high priest had access to GOD and he ministered first for himself and then for the people

Haggai 2 declares all unclean
So who can enter in and minister for man?

toLiJC · Oct 23, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
In another thread the question came up as to whether Paul quotes the OT honestly. I think he does not. Almost every time he quotes the Old Testament, if you look at the actual verses in context, you will find they are not saying what Paul claims they are saying. For instances, look at Romans 3:10-19:

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:10-19)

Paul is here quoting a number of verses as though they apply to everybody. But the verses he quotes in the Old Testament do not say that.

The first 3 verses are a loose paraphrase of Psalms 14:1-3. Psalms 14 in context is not saying that all are bad. Rather, it is saying that there are bad people that say no to Elohim (God), and there are righteous people who follow God. It is contrasting two groups of people. It is not saying all are bad.

The next verse appears to be from Jeremiah 5:16 which condemns a nation that is attacking the Jews, and says their quiver is an open grave. Paul changes "quiver" to "throat" and uses it to mean all men. Clearly Jeremiah was not saying that everyone was part of that invading army.

The verse about poison of snakes comes from Psalms 140:3, where the psalmist complains about some evil men coming after him. The psalmist is not saying everybody is an evil man coming at him, only some.

Next we read about a mouth full of cursing and bitterness, quoting Psalms 10:7, but again, this verse is talking about particular evil men attacking the psalmist, not that all are evil.

So I see here a collection of verses in the Old Testament about particular people doing bad things. One could also find a collection of verses about particular people doing good things. But Paul chooses the verses that speak of bad people doing bad things, strings them together, and uses them to prove a point. But Paul's point is not the point the original OT writers were making.

It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil. Rather we find that some are evil and some are good. And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

you are right about the point you made that there is no doctrine in the books of the old testament, presented by the true Prophets, conveying a belief that all people are unrighteous/sinful, but St Paul also didn't mean all people when He stated in his epistle to the roman church that there can be sinners in the world - He says expressly in Romans 3 that it concerns chiefly those who are under the law i.e. who are spiritual, in the sense that they should at least be careful not to commit spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness:

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

because the spiritual lawlessness/wickedness is the cause of all other evils and iniquities in general, or as He says in the previous(2nd) chapter of Romans:

Romans 2:17-27 (NASB) "But if you bear the name “Jew”(i.e. spiritual/righteous) and rely upon the Law(law(s) of god/faith) and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal(i.e. do you bereave)? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery(i.e. do you force, harm, offend or embitter)? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples(i.e. do you practice the faith wrong)? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God(i.e. do you commit unrighteousness)? For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES(i.e. among the irreligious and non-occult people) BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written. For indeed circumcision(i.e. to follow what is spiritual/religious) is of value if you practice the Law(i.e. if you keep the Holy Law of God/faith); but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision(i.e. your holiness/righteousness) has become uncircumcision(i.e. unholiness/unrighteousness). So if the uncircumcised(i.e. the irreligious and non-occult) man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision(i.e. his irreligiosity/unspirituality) be regarded as circumcision(i.e. as righteousness)? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision(also: and baptism/initiation) are a transgressor of the Law?"

yes, the irreligious and non-occult person can easily be considered harmless enough by God and inherit eternal life, especially if they conform to the requirements of the Holy Law of God, which says don't cause harm/suffering to your neighbor(townsman/cohabitant), but the spiritual servant/worshiper has at least to be an example of good attitude/treatment/behavior to others, moreover, the world situation depends primarily on what the spiritual/religious people (actually) do when they practice (the) faith - if they do only good and righteous things with(in) the faith, then there will be no unrighteousness in the world that they don't set up with(in) the faith, but if they do evil and unrighteous things with(in) the faith, then it can easily turn out that there will be exactly such unrighteousness in the world that they set up with(in) the faith:

Romans 5:12-14 "by one man(also: through the generation of the unrighteous spiritual workers/servants) sin(i.e. the devil as well as the system of (the) spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness) entered into the world, and death(i.e. and the (spirit of) deterioration) by sin; and so death passed upon all men(i.e. and so the deterioration affected many humans), for that all have sinned(i.e. because many were seized by the system of (the) spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness, some of them as its servants, others as its victims): For until the law sin was in the world(i.e. because the "darkness" was in the universe even until the nascence of the human spirituality/religiosity): but sin is not imputed when there is no law(i.e. but there is no sin where there is no spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness). Nevertheless death(i.e. the deterioration) reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(i.e. even over people that had not committed spiritual lawlessness/wickedness)"

so St Paul talks about the origins of evil, which is primary the spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness/lawlessness, and the biblical scriptures are spiritual writings explaining the spiritual things:

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 "we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.",

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (NIV) "What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.",

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (NASB) "we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

and if you analyze accurately the passages that St Paul quotes in Romans 3, you will (be able to) notice that the matter at hand is primary spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness/lawlessness there - St Paul the Apostle is a true Saint, He doesn't lie

P.S. and one more thing, the correct passage that He quoted in Romans 3:13 is not from Jeremiah 5 but rather from Psalms 5 (9th verse)

Blessings

Alla27 · Oct 23, 2016

Paul is saying in this chapter that all are sinners. It doesn't matter how good or how evil(bad) I am, I am a sinner. This is the point he is making. None of us can be justified by law.

toLiJC · Oct 24, 2016

Alla27 said:
Paul is saying in this chapter that all are sinners. It doesn't matter how good or how evil(bad) I am, I am a sinner. This is the point he is making. None of us can be justified by law.

such a statement as 'all creatures are sinners' can also be taken as true from the perspective that, as opposed to God, no creature can alone provide all souls with abundant and everlasting life - but this is another viewpoint, because the purpose of God and His truth/righteousness is not to charge people with anything and everything, but to discharge them of the burdens which the kingdom of satan has (tried to) charge(d) them with

Blessings

miknik5 · Oct 24, 2016

toLiJC said:
you are right about the point you made that there is no doctrine in the books of the old testament, presented by the true Prophets, conveying a belief that all people are unrighteous/sinful, but St Paul also didn't mean all people when He stated in his epistle to the roman church that there can be sinners in the world - He says expressly in Romans 3 that it concerns chiefly those who are under the law i.e. who are spiritual, in the sense that they should at least be careful not to commit spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness:

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

because the spiritual lawlessness/wickedness is the cause of all other evils and iniquities in general, or as He says in the previous(2nd) chapter of Romans:

Romans 2:17-27 (NASB) "But if you bear the name “Jew”(i.e. spiritual/righteous) and rely upon the Law(law(s) of god/faith) and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal(i.e. do you bereave)? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery(i.e. do you force, harm, offend or embitter)? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples(i.e. do you practice the faith wrong)? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God(i.e. do you commit unrighteousness)? For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES(i.e. among the irreligious and non-occult people) BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written. For indeed circumcision(i.e. to follow what is spiritual/religious) is of value if you practice the Law(i.e. if you keep the Holy Law of God/faith); but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision(i.e. your holiness/righteousness) has become uncircumcision(i.e. unholiness/unrighteousness). So if the uncircumcised(i.e. the irreligious and non-occult) man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision(i.e. his irreligiosity/unspirituality) be regarded as circumcision(i.e. as righteousness)? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision(also: and baptism/initiation) are a transgressor of the Law?"

yes, the irreligious and non-occult person can easily be considered harmless enough by God and inherit eternal life, especially if they conform to the requirements of the Holy Law of God, which says don't cause harm/suffering to your neighbor(townsman/cohabitant), but the spiritual servant/worshiper has at least to be an example of good attitude/treatment/behavior to others, moreover, the world situation depends primarily on what the spiritual/religious people (actually) do when they practice (the) faith - if they do only good and righteous things with(in) the faith, then there will be no unrighteousness in the world that they don't set up with(in) the faith, but if they do evil and unrighteous things with(in) the faith, then it can easily turn out that there will be exactly such unrighteousness in the world that they set up with(in) the faith:

Romans 5:12-14 "by one man(also: through the generation of the unrighteous spiritual workers/servants) sin(i.e. the devil as well as the system of (the) spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness) entered into the world, and death(i.e. and the (spirit of) deterioration) by sin; and so death passed upon all men(i.e. and so the deterioration affected many humans), for that all have sinned(i.e. because many were seized by the system of (the) spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness, some of them as its servants, others as its victims): For until the law sin was in the world(i.e. because the "darkness" was in the universe even until the nascence of the human spirituality/religiosity): but sin is not imputed when there is no law(i.e. but there is no sin where there is no spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness). Nevertheless death(i.e. the deterioration) reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(i.e. even over people that had not committed spiritual lawlessness/wickedness)"

so St Paul talks about the origins of evil, which is primary the spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness/lawlessness, and the biblical scriptures are spiritual writings explaining the spiritual things:

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 "we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.",

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (NIV) "What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.",

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (NASB) "we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

and if you analyze accurately the passages that St Paul quotes in Romans 3, you will (be able to) notice that the matter at hand is primary spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness/lawlessness there - St Paul the Apostle is a true Saint, He doesn't lie

P.S. and one more thing, the correct passage that He quoted in Romans 3:13 is not from Jeremiah 5 but rather from Psalms 5 (9th verse)

Blessings

Haggai 2 declared all nations before GOD unclean. And it was declared to those who were under the law. Those who followed soiritual practices who understood that they had to be clean to come into the presence of GOD

If the earthly high priest who ministered for the people before GOD was declared unclean then there were none who could come up into the HOLY presence of GOD

Again this is said to those who followed the law and the rituals of holiness

Nevertheless, in The Word given to those who were under The Law: HE will bless us

In the very letter which you quote Romans it is also written that HOD has turned the WHOLE WIRKD over to disobedience that all mouths will be silenced before HIM and the whole world held accountable to GOD

If those under the Law who had the Word of GOD were already told none are clean how will they justify themselves as clean?

Also we are told in The word of GOD to those who had the Word of GOD ( and GOD's WORD is TRUTH ) that there is not a man who does right all the time and does not sin

RDKirk · Oct 24, 2016

Tree of Life said:
This is a good question and it doesn't just apply to Paul. Nearly every NT author quotes from the OT but their use of OT quotes is often surprising and can seem illegitimate. In my experience I've found that close examination reveals that these quotes really are a legitimate use of the OT text and open up profound new dimensions of the OT text.

There's a whole book that's been written about this that's pretty standard in academic circles - Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament.

Only an in-depth study of the issue will truly answer your question. The question is so complicated and nuanced that a forum thread will hardly do the trick. If you're truly interested in the subject I would recommend the above work.

And this is the answer of the issue. Paul does what everyone else was doing, including Jesus.

RDKirk · Oct 24, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
What I really want is an answer to my question. Do the Old Testament verses Paul quotes in Romans 3 mean what Paul says they mean?

Now they do, for Christians. The only other group that would have any operational interest would be Jews.

The question is irrelevant to anyone who does not rely on either text for moral guidance.

rjs330 · Oct 24, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
What I really want is an answer to my question. Do the Old Testament verses Paul quotes in Romans 3 mean what Paul says they mean?

Yes they do. Thats why we let scripture interpret scripture. That's why he and the apostles,were provided with the deep things of God, so they can reveal those things to us. Our spirit understands because we are spiritual. The natural man cannot understand the things of God for they are spiritually discerned.

It amazing just how deep the word and works of God go. There is meaning far beyond what the natural man comprehends. It shows the wondrous depth of God.

rjs330 · Oct 24, 2016

Vicomte13 said:
You will find what you have found. In fact, if you make the close comparison, you will find that both Paul and James say things that contradict what Jesus said. Then you have to make a choice as to who trumps whom.

No they don't. Neither of them contradict Jesus. If we believe so the error is ours. It may seem so, but often what appears on the surface is not actually do. Remember Paul,and the apostles,were given the deep things of God. He is not in error. Neither is Jesus. It's us who are in error for our misunderstanding.

toLiJC · Oct 24, 2016

miknik5 said:
Haggai 2 declared all nations before GOD unclean. And it was declared to those who were under the law. Those who followed soiritual practices who understood that they had to be clean to come into the presence of GOD

If the earthly high priest who ministered for the people before GOD was declared unclean then there were none who could come up into the HOLY presence of GOD

Again this is said to those who followed the law and the rituals of holiness

Nevertheless, in The Word given to those who were under The Law: HE will bless us

In the very letter which you quote Romans it is also written that HOD has turned the WHOLE WIRKD over to disobedience that all mouths will be silenced before HIM and the whole world held accountable to GOD

If those under the Law who had the Word of GOD were already told none are clean how will they justify themselves as clean?

Also we are told in The word of GOD to those who had the Word of GOD ( and GOD's WORD is TRUTH ) that there is not a man who does right all the time and does not sin

i don't see in Haggai 2 that all humans were/be sinners, but the message i see there is that God called/calls on people to participate in His mission of overall salvation by practicing the faith right, because the attitude of a lot of the then worshipers, including among the israelites/jews, was too superficial and their works as worshipers were "dead" i.e. ineffective and bringing desolation

Matthew 9:12-13 "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.",

Hebrews 6:1 "repentance from dead works"

Blessings

Hawkins · Oct 26, 2016

Paul's quote is a direct quote from;

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NIV2011)
20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

This OP's argument is moot.

toLiJC · Oct 26, 2016

Hawkins said:
Paul's quote is a direct quote from;

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NIV2011)
20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

This OP's argument is moot.

the biblical "be/dwell on earth" is phrasal, it means 'have one's life based on the kingdom of the wicked one', and it primarily concerns people that commit (great) spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness, because the "beast" comes from the bottom of the so-called "sea" and "earth"

Revelation 13:1-15 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea... And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him... And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth... And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

the devil, the "beast", and the "other beast" are the satanic equivalents of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and their kingdom is concentrated in the so-called 'underheaven' i.e. the "sea" and the "earth", from this perspective the people that worship the wicked one, or that commit (great) spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness, are/dwell on (the) earth

Revelation 12:12 "rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

as it is seen from the above passage(the words in blue), the Scripture accordingly speaks likewise for the people that prefer not to worship/serve the wicked one - namely they are the ones that dell in (the) heaven

Blessings

Ken Rank · Oct 27, 2016

doubtingmerle said:
In another thread the question came up as to whether Paul quotes the OT honestly. I think he does not. Almost every time he quotes the Old Testament, if you look at the actual verses in context, you will find they are not saying what Paul claims they are saying. For instances, look at Romans 3:10-19:

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Rom 3:10-19)

Paul is here quoting a number of verses as though they apply to everybody. But the verses he quotes in the Old Testament do not say that.

The first 3 verses are a loose paraphrase of Psalms 14:1-3. Psalms 14 in context is not saying that all are bad. Rather, it is saying that there are bad people that say no to Elohim (God), and there are righteous people who follow God. It is contrasting two groups of people. It is not saying all are bad.

The next verse appears to be from Jeremiah 5:16 which condemns a nation that is attacking the Jews, and says their quiver is an open grave. Paul changes "quiver" to "throat" and uses it to mean all men. Clearly Jeremiah was not saying that everyone was part of that invading army.

The verse about poison of snakes comes from Psalms 140:3, where the psalmist complains about some evil men coming after him. The psalmist is not saying everybody is an evil man coming at him, only some.

Next we read about a mouth full of cursing and bitterness, quoting Psalms 10:7, but again, this verse is talking about particular evil men attacking the psalmist, not that all are evil.

So I see here a collection of verses in the Old Testament about particular people doing bad things. One could also find a collection of verses about particular people doing good things. But Paul chooses the verses that speak of bad people doing bad things, strings them together, and uses them to prove a point. But Paul's point is not the point the original OT writers were making.

It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil. Rather we find that some are evil and some are good. And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

What Paul does more than any NT author (and this is because he studied under Gameliel, Hillel's grandson... at Beit Hillel - School of Hillel) is use certain exegetical tools that we not only don't use, but are not even taught they exist. And, these tools are designed to affect context. When he quotes part of Psalm 14:1 (there are none righteous) he expects the reader to bring in the context of THAT verse/chapter into the NT writing we are reading. Your use of that verse is a good example because he says there are none righteous but I can show you a few people that messiah (or the NT in general) calls "righteous." When we understand the context of the Psalm and take into consideration that he was speaking about the "fool who says there is no God" (an atheist) then we have harmony.

Bottom line... we need better discipleship. We don't need to learn to memorize facts as our denomination understands them, we need to learn and use solid methodology.

hedrick · Nov 5, 2016

Here's what James Dunn has to say in his Romans commentary:

"Of all these passages only the two which do not come from the Psalms might be seen to be fairly quoted, since it is only these two which can on any straightforward reading be applied to the Jews as a whole. But, as already noted (see on 3:11–12), it would be quite proper in terms of the hermeneutical principles then current to use similarly worded passages to expand on the initial description from Ecclesiastes. And while modern commentators should beware of assuming that such composite proof-texting would have carried with it any allusion to the contexts from which the texts or part-texts were taken, it can hardly be accidental that in this case all the Psalm quotations work with an antithesis between those self-consciously favored by God and the rest variously described as the fool, the unrighteous, the lawless, the wicked, the sinner. Whether his first readers would have recognized the allusions or not, it is hard to doubt that Paul intended the Psalm citations as a turning of the tables on Jewish overconfidence in their nation’s favored status before God. The very descriptions which the psalmist used for those outside of God’s favor and righteousness can be seen in the light of the Ecclesiastes and Isaiah passages as a self-description and self-condemnation."

Uber Genius · Aug 23, 2017

doubtingmerle said:
In another thread the question came up as to whether Paul quotes the OT honestly.

Opening a thread with a loaded question based on an anachronistic fallacy.

Assumes Paul is looking at the masoretic text not the Septuagint.
Assumes Paul and others writing NT don't have the freedom to refer to traditions loosely. From rabbinical writing of Paul's day we see this assumption is false.
Assumes Paul can't group many authors under one heading which again is false as we have thousands of such references in dead sea scrolls of similar approaches.

These are anachronistic because we are attempting to compare ancient writing standards in a 2000-year-old culture to our own modern western culture.

doubtingmerle said:
Paul is here quoting a number of verses as though they apply to everybody. But the verses he quotes in the Old Testament do not say that.

See above. Standard practice.

In fact we see example of calling certain passages in the OT "prophetic," which were not prophecies at all in the original OT texts. So what? This practice was common to the scholarly culture in Paul's day.

doubtingmerle said:
It is hard to find the doctrine in the Old Testament that all are evil.

Gen 8:21 (man’s heart is evil from his youth)
"And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done."

Psalm 14:2-3 (there is no one who does good, not even one)
"The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Job 15:14 (Mankind not righteous or pure)
“What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!”
Jeremiah 17:9
“the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?”

So that took all of 3 minutes to research and represent a small portion of the evidence. Not so hard after all it seems.

doubtingmerle said:
And the emphasis there is always to be good, because God rewards you on earth if you are good.

Isaiah 64:6 Good works described as flithy rags (used menstrual rags that were ceremonially unclean)

Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be justified in His (God's) sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Galatians 2:16

"yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Again...this took 3 minutes to produce.

There is an emphasis on righteousness but there is a way to become righteous and it has never been about earning it through good works.

StTruth · Aug 23, 2017

hedrick said:
Here's what James Dunn has to say in his Romans commentary:

"Of all these passages only the two which do not come from the Psalms might be seen to be fairly quoted, since it is only these two which can on any straightforward reading be applied to the Jews as a whole. But, as already noted (see on 3:11–12), it would be quite proper in terms of the hermeneutical principles then current to use similarly worded passages to expand on the initial description from Ecclesiastes. And while modern commentators should beware of assuming that such composite proof-texting would have carried with it any allusion to the contexts from which the texts or part-texts were taken, it can hardly be accidental that in this case all the Psalm quotations work with an antithesis between those self-consciously favored by God and the rest variously described as the fool, the unrighteous, the lawless, the wicked, the sinner. Whether his first readers would have recognized the allusions or not, it is hard to doubt that Paul intended the Psalm citations as a turning of the tables on Jewish overconfidence in their nation’s favored status before God. The very descriptions which the psalmist used for those outside of God’s favor and righteousness can be seen in the light of the Ecclesiastes and Isaiah passages as a self-description and self-condemnation."

Hi Hedrick,

Nice to hear from you again after my absence for some time. As always, I treat your posts with the utmost respect. I have read all the comments in this thread and I can't help feeling that doubtingmerie is correct in what she says. Some of the people questioned her motive (which is neither here nor there) and some of them say that she can't understand the verses unless the Spirit enables them to. That is extremely unfair because her question is simple. Was St Paul right in using an OT quotation to say something completely different from what the OT verse actually says. Of course St Paul was wrong. But that need not necessarily mean that St Paul was dishonest. He could have been mistaken. He could have been using a dubious version of the OT such as the Septuagint which is notoriously wrong in many verses.

But we Christians don't like to say that St Paul was wrong because surely the Holy Spirit could have prevented something so wrong from entering a Pauline epistle?

So, we Christians come up with the catch-all for any error in Scriptures. We say it was a different hermeneutical principle commonly adopted in those days. But that doesn't sit very well with me because for me, truth is important. The fact that it was common among NT writers to misrepresent the OT in order to forward their own ideas cannot be used to justify St Paul's action as a "common hermeneutical principle". It's only common among NT writers. There are examples galore from my favourite scholar. For example, the Evangelists who wrote the Holy Gospels did the following outrageous things just to make the OT 'foretell' Jesus:

1. They squeezed our Lord into prophecies that do not apply to him because the time frame is clearly for someone centuries before Christ'

2. They make up stories about Jesus so that he could fulfil an OT prophecy. Most made up stories will remain undetected as lies until in some instances, one Evangelist misunderstands the Hebrew prophecy and cooks up a story about Jesus that diverges from the other stories of the other evangelists who understand the prophecy properly and hence do not tell such a strained story.

3. They even turn mere verses in the OT that are not prophecies into a 'prophecy' and tell a fantastic story of Jesus to fulfil that 'prophecy'.

So when the scholar you quoted says that this is a common hermeneutical principle used in those days, he is merely corroborating the fact that not just St Paul but other NT writers have been less than truthful in their writings. Hence I cannot accept it. Many NT untruths don't make St Paul's untruth true.

I'm saying all this because it's the honest thing to say. I would be dishonest if I just kept quiet and go along with my fellow Christians just to defend St Paul and the faith.

Cheers,

St Truth

miknik5 · Sep 3, 2017

StTruth said:
Hi Hedrick,

Nice to hear from you again after my absence for some time. As always, I treat your posts with the utmost respect. I have read all the comments in this thread and I can't help feeling that doubtingmerie is correct in what she says. Some of the people questioned her motive (which is neither here nor there) and some of them say that she can't understand the verses unless the Spirit enables them to. That is extremely unfair because her question is simple. Was St Paul right in using an OT quotation to say something completely different from what the OT verse actually says. Of course St Paul was wrong. But that need not necessarily mean that St Paul was dishonest. He could have been mistaken. He could have been using a dubious version of the OT such as the Septuagint which is notoriously wrong in many verses.

But we Christians don't like to say that St Paul was wrong because surely the Holy Spirit could have prevented something so wrong from entering a Pauline epistle?

So, we Christians come up with the catch-all for any error in Scriptures. We say it was a different hermeneutical principle commonly adopted in those days. But that doesn't sit very well with me because for me, truth is important. The fact that it was common among NT writers to misrepresent the OT in order to forward their own ideas cannot be used to justify St Paul's action as a "common hermeneutical principle". It's only common among NT writers. There are examples galore from my favourite scholar. For example, the Evangelists who wrote the Holy Gospels did the following outrageous things just to make the OT 'foretell' Jesus:

1. They squeezed our Lord into prophecies that do not apply to him because the time frame is clearly for someone centuries before Christ'

2. They make up stories about Jesus so that he could fulfil an OT prophecy. Most made up stories will remain undetected as lies until in some instances, one Evangelist misunderstands the Hebrew prophecy and cooks up a story about Jesus that diverges from the other stories of the other evangelists who understand the prophecy properly and hence do not tell such a strained story.

3. They even turn mere verses in the OT that are not prophecies into a 'prophecy' and tell a fantastic story of Jesus to fulfil that 'prophecy'.

So when the scholar you quoted says that this is a common hermeneutical principle used in those days, he is merely corroborating the fact that not just St Paul but other NT writers have been less than truthful in their writings. Hence I cannot accept it. Many NT untruths don't make St Paul's untrutdo true.

I'm saying all this because it's the honest thing to say. I would be dishonest if I just kept quiet and go along with my fellow Christians just to defend St Paul and the faith.

Cheers,

St Truth

Do you accept the words of the OT scholars then?

Did Solomon and Isaiah speak truth by GOD's SPIRIT?

StTruth · Sep 3, 2017

miknik5 said:
Do you accept the words of the OT scholars then?

Hi miknik5,

Which OT scholars are you referring to? What words of theirs are you talking about? I don't have a blanket acceptance of scholars. My acceptance is dependent on what they say specifically.

miknik5 said:
Did Solomon and Isaiah speak truth by GOD's SPIRIT?

Which speechs of Solomon and Isaiah are you referring to? The Bible tells us that people (however holy they may be) don't always speak God's truth all the time. Even St Paul himself makes it clear that some verses of his are not from God and he qualifies these clearly.

Cheers,

St Truth

miknik5 · Sep 3, 2017

Isaiah 1 and Ecclesiastes 7

StTruth said:
Hi miknik5,

Which OT scholars are you referring to? What words of theirs are you talking about? I don't have a blanket acceptance of scholars. My acceptance is dependent on what they say specifically.

Which speechs of Solomon and Isaiah are you referring to? The Bible tells us that people (however holy they may be) don't always speak God's truth all the time. Even St Paul himself makes it clear that some verses of his are not from God and he qualifies these clearly.

Cheers,

St Truth

StTruth · Sep 3, 2017

miknik5 said:
Isaiah 1 and Ecclesiastes 7

I don't understand your question. Isaiah 1 is a vision that Isaiah saw. Ec 7 is a collection of wise sayings. What exactly is your question?

Does Paul quote scripture out of context?

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