stenerson

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Coveting is a sin still, right?

How do you prevent yourself from coveting?

Apply the same New Covenant ethic for one sin to another.

You don't seem to be dealing with any of my comments or concerns but simply going back to the "it's in the Decalogue" argument.
Trust me, I've heard it all my life. "If you still can't kill or commit adultery then you still got to keep the 7th day Sabbath."
What do you think for example of R.C. Sproul's comment concerning the lost souls serving him on the Sabbath instead of preparing for church?
Again, the inherently moral aspects of the law are made manifest to all men by God (romans 1) so they are without excuse. The Sabbath was the sign and seal of this covenant. The NT writers, Apostles went into detail concerning Christian morals, modesty, generosity, love, behavior in fellowship etc..
Nothing on the Sabbath except in describing it as a shadow of what we now possess in Christ, and in warning against those insisting that days must still be observed.
 
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JM

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You don't seem to be dealing with any of my comments or concerns but simply going back to the "it's in the Decalogue" argument.

Actually, I have. You mentioned how the Sabbath principle was nearly impossible to keep with the punishments for breaking the commandment serve, I pointed out that "coveting" was just as impossible to keep, and that under the new covenant you are still require to acknowledge breaking it was sin.

Trust me, I've heard it all my life. "If you still can't kill or commit adultery then you still got to keep the 7th day Sabbath."

You reveal a bias against the Reformed teaching due to your Seventh Day Adventist background. That's an entirely different belief system and contains different reasons for Sabbath keeping. I've yet to read a Reformed Christian tell us to "keep a 7th day Sabbath," but that we have a Sabbath principle of rest and worship that is one in seven.

What do you think for example of R.C. Sproul's comment concerning the lost souls serving him on the Sabbath instead of preparing for church?

I've never really considered Sproul a Sabbatarian rather, he has espoused the Continental view of the Lord's Day, a day of rest and relaxation. A feast day.

Again, the inherently moral aspects of the law are made manifest to all men by God (romans 1) so they are without excuse. The Sabbath was the sign and seal of this covenant.

Reformed Christians have recognized two distinct portions to the Fourth Commandment. Not just one.

The NT writers, Apostles went into detail concerning Christian morals, modesty, generosity, love, behavior in fellowship etc..

Trust me, I've heard it all my Christian life. "If you can't find the commandment repeated in the New Testament it must not be for us Today." That reeks of an overly realized eschatology! Remove the manmade elements that distinguish old and new testaments and read the Bible as one complete revelation. It helps.

Nothing on the Sabbath except in describing it as a shadow of what we now possess in Christ, and in warning against those insisting that days must still be observed.

If the Sabbath typified rest in Christ, and it does, why would it be less important now when we have the substance of what was typified?

Yours in the Lord.

jm
PS: I made a few points in The Third Use of the Law. Essentially, the promise of Law written on our hearts in Jer. 31, in context, must be the moral law including the one in seven day principle of rest.
 
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stenerson

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Actually, I have. You mentioned how the Sabbath principle was nearly impossible to keep with the punishments for breaking the commandment serve, I pointed out that "coveting" was just as impossible to keep, and that under the new covenant you are still require to acknowledge breaking it was sin.

I never mentioned that the commandment was impossible to keep.. I don't see where you're getting that. How impossible was it to stay in your dwelling and not go out to seek food?

You reveal a bias against the Reformed teaching due to your Seventh Day Adventist background. That's an entirely different belief system and contains different reasons for Sabbath keeping. I've yet to read a Reformed Christian tell us to "keep a 7th day Sabbath," but that we have a Sabbath principle of rest and worship that is one in seven.


Yes, it's true, I can't deny that due to my upbringing I have a strong opinion concerning Sabbatarianism.
I obviously don't have a bias against Reformed teaching in general, just this one. The fourth commandment is not a general principle of rest and worship, it was a commandment written in stone with very specific, unalterable details, including the 7th Day Sabbath which the Jews (orthodox) still keep. When I left Adventism I wanted to be sure on this topic, that is have a clear conscience on the matter. Now, I admit that if no one else shared my understanding of this I would be worried. The fact that many Calvinist that I know personally, and others I respect such as Calvin himself, and people like Phil Johnson share my view lets me know I'm not completely crazy.
smile.gif


I've never really considered Sproul a Sabbatarian rather, he has espoused the Continental view of the Lord's Day, a day of rest and relaxation. A feast day.

Hmmm? that's interesting. I always hear him claim he's an adherent to the Westminster confession. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Presbyterian) explicitly teaches Sabbatarianism. And I've heard him use the term Sabbath often.

Trust me, I've heard it all my Christian life. "If you can't find the commandment repeated in the New Testament it must not be for us Today." That reeks of an overly realized eschatology! Remove the manmade elements that distinguish old and new testaments and read the Bible as one complete revelation. It helps.

I never argued that you can't find the commandment repeated in the New Testament. On the contrary, I argue that we do find it's significance and fulfillment in the NT in the texts that I discussed. I believe it's explicit in texts like Colosians 2, and Hebrews 4, and implied in Jesus ministry.

If the Sabbath typified rest in Christ, and it does, why would it be less important now when we have the substance of what was typified?

You could use that argument/logic about every feast day, ritual, ceremony etc. in the Old Covenant.


PS: I made a few points in The Third Use of the Law. Essentially, the promise of Law written on our hearts in Jer. 31, in context, must be the moral law including the one in seven day principle of rest.

The fruits of the Spirit are IMO the fulfillment of Jer 31. The result of regeneration. You'd think Paul or the Apostles would make a small effort to include Sabbath keeping in the list.

P.S. I appreciate your participation in this thread. I don't know or have contact with any confessional Reforms folks around here. I go to an independent Calvinistic baptist church. I'm blessed to have a faithful pastor that does a great job in expository preaching. We're about 20 percent through the book of Romans now.
Just a little off topic plug of our church:
http://www.keenecrossway.org/sermons
I especially enjoyed his series on the book of Ruth.:
http://www.keenecrossway.org/sermons#series_19
 
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JM

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I never mentioned that the commandment was impossible to keep.. I don't see where you're getting that. How impossible was it to stay in your dwelling and not go out to seek food?

We know the Sabbath pointed to rest in Christ not just chillin' at home. That's the rub.

Yes, it's true, I can't deny that due to my upbringing I have a strong opinion concerning Sabbatarianism.
I obviously don't have a bias against Reformed teaching in general, just this one. The fourth commandment is not a general principle of rest and worship, it was a commandment written in stone with very specific, unalterable details, including the 7th Day Sabbath which the Jews (orthodox) still keep. When I left Adventism I wanted to be sure on this topic, that is have a clear conscience on the matter. Now, I admit that if no one else shared my understanding of this I would be worried. The fact that many Calvinist that I know personally, and others I respect such as Calvin himself, and people like Phil Johnson share my view lets me know I'm not completely crazy.
smile.gif

Not to mention Caron who edited From Sabbath to Lord's Day. It's very convincing but, alas, rests on the idea of radical discontinuity. To be a Calvinist doesn't make you Reformed. Dispensationalists like Johnson are not Reformed.

Hmmm? that's interesting. I always hear him claim he's an adherent to the Westminster confession. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Presbyterian) explicitly teaches Sabbatarianism. And I've heard him use the term Sabbath often.

It does. I believe it also leans toward Theonomy with church and state working together.

I never argued that you can't find the commandment repeated in the New Testament. On the contrary, I argue that we do find it's significance and fulfillment in the NT in the texts that I discussed. I believe it's explicit in texts like Colosians 2, and Hebrews 4, and implied in Jesus ministry.

Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4 are the trickiest passages on this subject. I believe the passage reads, "canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us..." which would mean the legal aspect use to condemn a sinner has been removed.

You could use that argument/logic about every feast day, ritual, ceremony etc. in the Old Covenant.

The legal demands of ceremonial law have been done away with. Reformed Christians understand there to be a three fold division of law. It is helpful as a starting point even if you disagree with it. At least there is a recognition of the eternity of moral law therein.

The fruits of the Spirit are IMO the fulfillment of Jer 31. The result of regeneration. You'd think Paul or the Apostles would make a small effort to include Sabbath keeping in the list.

It was assumed since they were attend the Synagogue and preached there. To sum up the fruit of the spirit apart from the morality of God contained in the Commandments sets up a false antithesis.

P.S. I appreciate your participation in this thread. I don't know or have contact with any confessional Reforms folks around here. I go to an independent Calvinistic baptist church. I'm blessed to have a faithful pastor that does a great job in expository preaching. We're about 20 percent through the book of Romans now.
Just a little off topic plug of our church:
http://www.keenecrossway.org/sermons
I especially enjoyed his series on the book of Ruth.:
http://www.keenecrossway.org/sermons#series_19

No prob. It's not a salvation issue but, I think you'll agree, if the Church declares Sunday the day your congregation meets on for worship and you just skip it to sleep in...there is something immoral about it.

Yours in the Lord.
 
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stenerson

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We know the Sabbath pointed to rest in Christ not just chillin' at home. That's the rub.

Yes, we have the NT now that clearly shows us that the carnal command/ordinance was a shadow that pointed to Christ. The immediate significance/context (to the 12 tribes) was that God freed them from the house of bondage/slavery. All 12 tribes were not stoned for not perfectly honoring it's ultimate spiritual significance. One man was stoned for disobeying the command.


Not to mention Caron who edited From Sabbath to Lord's Day. It's very convincing but, alas, rests on the idea of radical discontinuity. To be a Calvinist doesn't make you Reformed. Dispensationalists like Johnson are not Reformed.

Yep, that's why I specified "Calvinist" vs Reformed.

It does. I believe it also leans toward Theonomy with church and state working together.

I've been looking into this Theonomy flap going on between JD Hall and McDurmon camp. I'm starting to side with JD Hall's position that reformed doctrine is not compatible with true Theonomy. But I guess that's another subject altogether.

Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4 are the trickiest passages on this subject. I believe the passage reads, "canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us..." which would mean the legal aspect use to condemn a sinner has been removed.

The conclusion being " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
The results of the above mentioned Theology isn't "to not judge anyone for blaspheming, or hating God and neighbor, or behaving immorally. " But the conclusion is that some things (including Sabbaths) are no longer binding on our consciences due to their fulfillment in Christ.
I started this thread to hear the other side, but I believe if I constantly bugged Sabbatarians about this issue and troubled their conscience I would be doing wrong. ("let each man be settled in his own mind")

The legal demands of ceremonial law have been done away with. Reformed Christians understand there to be a three fold division of law. It is helpful as a starting point even if you disagree with it. At least there is a recognition of the eternity of moral law therein.

Sure, I believe God's holiness, character and moral goodness are eternal principles. The 7th day Sabbath commandment had it's time and purpose.

No prob. It's not a salvation issue but, I think you'll agree, if the Church declares Sunday the day your congregation meets on for worship and you just skip it to sleep in...there is something immoral about it.

We agree completely there.
 
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