Which Translation

I am a Reformed/Calvinist Christian and use the

  • NIV

  • KJV

  • NKJV

  • NLT

  • ESV

  • HCSB

  • The Voice

  • NASB

  • NIRV

  • other


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TaylorSexton

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Still, to claim all translations are equal doesn't make sense. Some are in fact better in conveying the meaning of the text better than others.

That's not true. "Literal" translations miss a lot of nuance that dynamic equivalence bring out, and dynamic equivalence translations miss a lot of syntactic formulas that "literal" translations show us. The point is that no translation brings out all the information conveyed fully in the original text. They are all deficient.

LOL! so we layman aren't worthy of answering the OP question "Which translation do you use and why? Which one does your Pastor preach from?"

Did I say that? I am just saying that unless someone knows the original languages they cannot make serious judgments as to whether a translation is good or not. How can someone who doesn't know French or Latin know which translation of Calvin is better outside of trusting the opinion of respected scholars? It makes sense. You have to have some knowledge in a field before you can make informed judgments within that field. That goes with every field, not just the translation of ancient languages. That's just how it is.

Fortunately, with the internet almost everyone has access to the resources in order to learn the languages. None of us are really without any excuse.

But, I never said one cannot have opinions and valid reasons for preferring one translation over another. But, one cannot really say if a translation is "good" or "bad" without knowing the original languages. That's just common sense.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Believe me, I do not intend at all to sound elitist. But, we have to be real and honest about things. There is too much bickering in the English-speaking world regarding Bible translations, and almost all of it being done by people who don't know the original languages. It is rather silly. I wouldn't treat medicine, law, or chemical engineering in the same way, why should we treat Bible translation that way?

Does that mean people who don't know the original languages cannot study their Bible, even deeply? Of course not. That is the point of Bible translations in the first place, and that is also the point of commentaries.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Some people just don't have the interest or inclination to learn another language. One has to consider that.

For sure. I realize that it is not expedient for everyone to do that, and that is perfectly fine. Like I said, knowledge of the original languages is not required for deep and fruitful Bible study. There are many great pastors who have done great ministry their entire lives without it. However, one cannot then conclude that the original languages are simply useless. On the contrary, there are many facets of the languages (and thus the biblical text) that simply cannot be unlocked fully without knowledge of them. That's just the way it is, and we have to be honest about that.

I just say what I say for the person who wants to call me some kind of elitist. Such an accusation would only be (somewhat) accurate if the relevant materials were inaccessible, which is hardly the case. If someone wants to learn the languages, they can, and without cost in a lot of cases.

Like I said before, a lot of this is just coming from someone who is very wearied by translation arguments (which isn't happening on this thread, by the way!) in which the only people involved cannot tell an ℵ from a θ.
 
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JM

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LOL! so we layman aren't worthy of answering the OP question "Which translation do you use and why? Which one does your Pastor preach from?" :sorry:

That's exactly what that means. The modern man cannot grasp the logic of faith, because it presumes a fixed standard, and copies of that standard do vary in quality. The snap shot idea fails and is not confessionally Reformed, "by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them" is really just, "I guess this is what it means based on a 'moving picture?'" That's the complete opposite of what the Reformers believed even if Dr. White holds to it...

Get outta here with that nonsense. (tongue in cheek folks, don't get too worked up)

To sum up:

All translations are equally crappy because they are based on a moving set of MSS. We can't have confidence in them due to their liquid nature.

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
Forget the Bible it's shifting sand.
Forget the Bible it's shifting sand.

I'm having fun folks. Don't get too mad. I happen to confess the confessional standards of the Reformed Churches and acknowledge that many do not. It doesn't mean you're not true Bible believers, just that it's inconsistent to say "sola scriptura" and then call it a motion picture.

Yours in the Lord.
 
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TaylorSexton

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That's exactly what that means. The modern man cannot grasp the logic of faith, because it presumes a fixed standard, and copies of that standard do vary in quality. The snap shot idea fails and is not confessionally Reformed, "by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them" is really just, "I guess this is what it means based on a 'moving picture?'" That's the complete opposite of what the Reformers believed even if Dr. White holds to it...

Get outta here with that nonsense. (tongue in cheek folks, don't get too worked up)

To sum up:

All translations are equally crappy because they are based on a moving set of MSS. We can't have confidence in them due to their liquid nature.

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
Forget the Bible it's shifting sand.
Forget the Bible it's shifting sand.

I'm having fun folks. Don't get too mad. I happen to confess the confessional standards of the Reformed Churches and acknowledge that many do not. It doesn't mean you're not true Bible believers, just that it's inconsistent to say "sola scriptura" and then call it a motion picture.

Yours in the Lord.

That's strange. I didn't know this thread was about manuscript traditions. I certainly never brought that up as part of what I was saying.
 
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Tree of Life

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Tree of Life brought it up back on page 1.

I think you misunderstood me. When I call the Hebrew and Greek texts a motion picture I don't mean to say that they're always changing. What I mean is that there's a lot of movement and dynamism in any language that cannot be fully captured in a translation. Translations can only capture static representations of what's really a very dynamic text.

This is in agreement with the standards that you've quoted which call us to appeal to the original languages in all matters of dispute.
 
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JM

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My bad, I misunderstood.

I've heard it stated before by "Reformed" guys that our text is ever changing based on textual criticism which, if you ask me, is only being honest. A shifting text is a dangerous ideal and one that sola scriptura cannot stand upon.

Whenever this issue comes up I'm tempted to jump ship and become Eastern Orthodox or a Papist. At least these issues are settle by people claiming to have authority to do so. As Prots we just follow our fav teacher and hope he's correct.

Yours in the Lord.
 
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TaylorSexton

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I've heard it stated before by "Reformed" guys that our text is ever changing based on textual criticism...

If you think this is what somebody like James White believes—or any evangelical textual critic, for that matter—you are sadly mistaken.

By the way, absolutely everyone involved in the TR tradition did the exact same thing, including the AV translators.
 
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Tree of Life

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My bad, I misunderstood.

I've heard it stated before by "Reformed" guys that our text is ever changing based on textual criticism which, if you ask me, is only being honest. A shifting text is a dangerous ideal and one that sola scriptura cannot stand upon.

Whenever this issue comes up I'm tempted to jump ship and become Eastern Orthodox or a Papist. At least these issues are settle by people claiming to have authority to do so. As Prots we just follow our fav teacher and hope he's correct.

Yours in the Lord.

I don't believe that the text is ever changing. It's possible that we might discover manuscripts in the future that clear up some places that are currently unclear. But these places are few, far between, and not striking at the vitals of the faith in any way. See, for example, issues related to the number of the beast (666 vs 616). These textual variants are not really that big of a deal.
 
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JM

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If you think this is what somebody like James White believes—or any evangelical textual critic, for that matter—you are sadly mistaken.

By the way, absolutely everyone involved in the TR tradition did the exact same thing, including the AV translators.

I listen to Dr. White every week and I can tell you I'm not the only one that finds his work on textual criticism to actually dash their faith. Another fella that posts on here once in a while has share the same concerns with me via fb. I'm not sadly mistaken just drawing the unavoidable conclusion.
 
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TaylorSexton

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I listen to Dr. White every week and I can tell you I'm not the only one that finds his work on textual criticism to actually dash their faith. Another fella that posts on here once in a while has share the same concerns with me via fb. I'm not sadly mistaken just drawing the unavoidable conclusion.

That's unfortunate, because that is certainly not what he believes. Can you give some convincing evidence that he does? If you truly believe this, then I would suggest you contact him personally and have a discussion with him. It is certainly not fair to assume such about a person without their ability to give input.
 
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JM

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I don't believe that the text is ever changing. It's possible that we might discover manuscripts in the future that clear up some places that are currently unclear. But these places are few, far between, and not striking at the vitals of the faith in any way. See, for example, issues related to the number of the beast (666 vs 616). These textual variants are not really that big of a deal.

The Reformed Confessions site passage of scripture that are no longer considered, "in the oldest or best MSS." That's kind of a big deal. That means we can't site scripture to answer disagrees because they might not, according to some future MSS find, be scripture. They could be errors.

Eastern Orthodox or Rome?

I like the incense better in Orthodoxy.

jm
 
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JM

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That's unfortunate, because that is certainly not what he believes. Can you give some convincing evidence that he does? If you truly believe this, then I would suggest you contact him personally and have a discussion with him. It is certainly not fair to assume such about a person without their ability to give input.

A friend of mine drove 3 hours to talk with him and he was given the brush off. That same friend is now in RCIA to become a Roman Catholic and trust me, he has read the church fathers and knows scripture. He's leaving a Presby church for Rome.

GTG, I'll check back tonight.
 
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Tree of Life

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The Reformed Confessions site passage of scripture that are no longer considered, "in the oldest or best MSS." That's kind of a big deal.

When you look at the nature of the textual variants I don't think that it amounts to as big of a deal as you're chalking it up to be. Could you provide one such Scripture that you're thinking of?
 
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TaylorSexton

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A friend of mine drove 3 hours to talk with him and he was given the brush off. That same friend is now in RCIA to become a Roman Catholic and trust me, he has read the church fathers and knows scripture. He's leaving a Presby church for Rome.

That's not fair to attribute your friend's apostasy to Dr. White. Something tells me he went expecting to talk to him without being invited. He is a busy man. However, he opens the phone lines on his shows regularly.
 
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stenerson

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Did I say that? I am just saying that unless someone knows the original languages they cannot make serious judgments as to whether a translation is good or not. How can someone who doesn't know French or Latin know which translation of Calvin is better outside of trusting the opinion of respected scholars? It makes sense. You have to have some knowledge in a field before you can make informed judgments within that field. That goes with every field, not just the translation of ancient languages. That's just how it is.

I wasn't arguing with your passionate and well-informed argumentation. I just didn't understand it in light of a friendly thread concerning our preferred version and what our pastor uses in Church.
I don't think anyone here needs to become experts in the original languages to know that there is no perfect translation.
That is, unless there are KJV only cultists among us. Those that believe God started from scratch again with the English speaking peoples using the KJV. ^_^
 
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TaylorSexton

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I wasn't arguing with your passionate and well-informed argumentation. I just didn't understand it in light of a friendly thread concerning our preferred version and what our pastor uses in Church.
I don't think anyone here needs to become experts in the original languages to know that there is no perfect translation.
That is, unless there are KJV only cultists among us. Those that believe God started from scratch again with the English speaking peoples using the KJV. ^_^

Sure. I understand my tone was probably too harsh. I have hobby-horses that tend to spill out of my mount. I need to control it better. My apologies.
 
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JM

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Over the years I've posted half a dozen threads about textual criticism and Dr. White. Just do a search using "james white" and "JM."

It was Dr. White's podcast that caused him to doubt the authority of scripture. He listened to Dr. White's debate with Ehrman and realized they were both doubting scripture and trying to re-construct it using textual criticism. It's a valid point. Dr. White doesn't shy away from using textual criticism even when debating Muslims.

My position is pretty simple and it's the same position the 17th century Reformers confessed, and is stated in Westminster and Second London Baptist Confessions. According to these confessions, the scriptures are:

“immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.” (article 1:8)

Dr. Edward Hills explains how Erasmus, in his first printing of his Greek New Testament, was guided by a common faith held by all concerning, the text they had. And that,

“Luther, Melanchton, Stephanus, Calvin, Beza, and the other scholars of the Reformation Period who labored on the New Testament text were similarly guided by God’s special providence. These scholars had received humanistic training in their youth, and in their notes and comments they sometimes reveal traces of this early education. But in their actual dealings with the biblical text these humanistic tendencies were restrained by the common faith in the providential preservation of Scripture, a faith which they themselves professed along with their followers. Hence in the Reformation Period the textual criticism of the New Testament was different from the textual criticism of any other book. The humanistic methods used on other books were not applied to the New Testament. In their editions of the New Testament Erasmus and his successors were providentially guided by the common faith to adopt the current text, primarily the current Greek text and secondarily the current Latin text. … thus the logic of faith led true believers of that day, just as it leads true believers today, to the Textus Receptus as the God-guided New Testament text”

The Greek text edition circulated by Theodore Beza was in common use and considered authoritative. There was little or no further textual criticism done to his Greek edition, hence, it was received. In history we find a clear witness of the Protestant church to the Received Text. The church is the witness, the pillar and ground of truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

J. H. Gosden of the Gospel Standard Baptist observes in his commentary on the Gospel Standard Baptist Articles of Faith,

“By inspiration of God gave the Holy Oracles, and power – perennial miracle – He preserves them intact. They are inerrant, unchangeable, unlosable. Could they err or change or be lost, their divine origin would be disapproved and dependence upon them would be misplaced. In such a case there would exist no foundation upon which to build for eternity, no final court of appeal respecting truth and error, no standard of doctrine, no rule of practice, no touchstone of experience. “

Those who prefer to use a rational approach in defining the New Testament text have to admit that scripture is selected by the text critic. In the office of a scholar many manuscripts are studied. The assumption is often stated that “only the originals are inspired.” The scholar must conduct examinations of the many manuscripts to determine which verse is more likely to be inspired and therefore authentic. But what kind of method does he use? What is his rule to determine what is, might be or is not scripture? The Bible critic or critics, whatever the case maybe, must choose and whatever kind of rule chosen, becomes their guiding principle. It is not driven by the logic of faith the Reformers used but a secular naturalistic presupposition. This presupposition denies the God who acts in history and intervenes in our daily lives. It denies what scriptures reveals about itself.

As the peoples historian D’Aubigne declared, “Christianity is neither an abstract doctrine nor an external organization. It is a life from God communicated to mankind…”

The CT man has no biblical text:

Bart Ehrman states, “there is always a degree of doubt, an element of subjectivity.”

Kurt Aland declares that the latest Text of the United Bible Societies is “not a static entity” and “every change in it is open to challenge.”

G. Zuntz admits that “the optimism of the earlier editors has given way to that scepticism which inclines towards regarding ‘the original text’ as an unattainable mirage.”

Douglas Wilson writes,

“This witness is not offered by the Church as “something to think about” or as a mere “suggestion.” The testimony of the Church on this point is submissive to Scripture, but authoritative for the saints. For example, if an elder in a Christian church took it upon himself to add a book to the canon of Scripture, or sought to take away a book, the duty of his church would be to try him for heresy and remove him immediately. This disciplinary action is authoritative, taken in defense of an authoritative canonical settlement. This does not mean the Church is defending the Word of God; the Church is defending her witness to the Word. As the necessity of discipline makes plain, this witness is dogmatic and authoritative. It is not open for discussion. God does not intend for us to debate the canon of Scripture afresh every generation. We have already given our testimony; our duty now is to remain faithful to it. “

Dr. Daniel Wallace is a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary and is considered an expert inn ancient biblical Greek and New Testament criticism. In a blog post about the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature he wrote,

“As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead. “

We cannot declare the originals only, exchanging “King James Onlyism” for “Original Text Onlyism,” our very idea of sola scriptura does not allow for it. Without a foundational set of manuscripts Protestantism is reduced to just one of many traditions with sola scriptura a late development and no less of a tradition then that found in Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. This tradition is reduced to a Magisterium of scholars instead of Popes, Cardinals and Bishops. We have replaced the Roman Magisterium with a Magisterium of Textual Critics. Rome acts like a final authority, and the scholar tells us what the final authority might be.

jm
 
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