What if it were you?

smithed64 · Oct 17, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
I'm not a member of that denomination, as I do not share their understanding of the scripture.

Ah, but you've forgotten the first and most important step of all logical form of syllogism: defining your terms. I suggest you start by defining "hell" by using the bible. For instance, if you wish to define this word as "a place of literal fire where all sinners will be tortured for all of time, no chance of ever being release; which fate is deserved by all of us, and will be enacted upon them" then if you could cite a passage or two that could clearly establish this?

We've been writing about Hell for sometime now. And not once have you asked to define it. And I have shown the scripture where it is called a place of literal fire in Revelations. So, the definition is already know and assumed to be the same definition for both.

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).

I'm sorry if you find it goofy; but I shouldn't think that potential blasphemy against God would be taken as 'goofy'. Remember, if your understanding of the concept of "hell" is in error, and let us suppose the concept really means something like "a spiritual fire temporarily used by God for the purpose of refinement of spiritual gold", then by teaching "we all deserve eternal torture, and eternal torture is the characteristic of God, which He will execute upon billions of people who were confused" you have injured the name of God in painting Him in a malevolent way that is not consistent with His character.

Again, please read this carefully...YOU ARE SENT TO HELL BECAUSE OF SIN...not confusion. But no one will be have any excuse as to why they didn't repent and place there trust in Christ. Everyone will know and most do know there is a God.
Everyone will know that there is judgment of God,coming. I didn't put 21-31 in below to save reading time, feel free to read it...it's an eye opener.
And as it says there in 32 everyone who commits these things, (sins) are worthy of death...other words deserve it.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I've not said anything blasphemous against or About God. I have used His Word.
I've not used His name vainly, nor have I used it to sin with.

My understanding of Hell is biblical, so not in error.

You have created a god in your own image who would not or should not punish sin, eternally or with torment, in which as shown above God does exactly that. Beware of who you say is blasphemous.

Please note that I'm not using the word "blasphemy" to offend, frighten or in any way hurt your feelings- but using it as, what would be a fact of definition.

The definition of blasphemy is the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk

Which I have not done.[/QUOTE]

smithed64 · Oct 17, 2016

Colter said:
The Documentary Hypothisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis has been in existence among biblical scholars for a long time. Much of the Old Testament dates to the Babylonion captivity period. Islam has scriptures that they claim are inerrant. So do other religions.

You do know, if ever in a time the bible was destroyed and reedited...don't you think that would have been noted in History...especially in the progressive anti biblical history......it's not there...anywhere.
Secondly...to do this enormous feet of rediting...you would have to recall every single bible ever written....every single book that references the bible....every single song....every single card....anything and everything that has even a small quote from the bible....this also has never happened.
If you did destroy just the bibles alone in the world tomorrow. Within just a few days, you could have another written, with the same accuracy as the ones you just destroyed. Just by going to a library.
Ever read Fahrenheit 451...Read it...it'll help you to wrap your mind around...how much The bible is cherished. And it's not even a faith based book it's classified as SciFy...it's written by Ray Bradbury.

Colter · Oct 17, 2016

smithed64 said:
You do know, if ever in a time the bible was destroyed and reedited...don't you think that would have been noted in History...especially in the progressive anti biblical history......it's not there...anywhere.
Secondly...to do this enormous feet of rediting...you would have to recall every single bible ever written....every single book that references the bible....every single song....every single card....anything and everything that has even a small quote from the bible....this also has never happened.
If you did destroy just the bibles alone in the world tomorrow. Within just a few days, you could have another written, with the same accuracy as the ones you just destroyed. Just by going to a library.
Ever read Fahrenheit 451...Read it...it'll help you to wrap your mind around...how much The bible is cherished. And it's not even a faith based book it's classified as SciFy...it's written by Ray Bradbury.

The OT was finished for the most part by the time of the return to Jerusalem nearly 1,000 years after Moses lived. The NT was done by around 100.

Strong in Him · Oct 18, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
If a Church of Christ member were right here telling you, you are going to burn in hell forever for not being in our church... would you agree with them that it would be just and holy and loving for God to thrust you into your eternal nightmare for, not understanding correctly?

No. That's not true so I wouldn't believe them.

My view on hell - which I may not have fully thought through, and may be unorthodox is as follows.
When someone dies, I believe that they meet with God. I also believe that they are made whole and perfect - not in the sense of being without sin, but having perfect understanding, perfect bodies and perfect memory.
So people who rejected God while they were alive - not that they hadn't heard or didn't understand, but that they heard the Gospel, chose not to respond and never responded to any promptings - would be standing in front of God. They would know, without a shadow of doubt, that he exists, is holy, pure, able to forgive and that everything else they heard about him is true as well. They will also know that they are unforgiven sinners; that all their sin has been revealed for them, and God, to see, and that it is too late for them to repent and receive forgiveness.
Personally, I feel that standing in front of the God you have deliberately rejected and openly scorned would cause great shame, guilt, embarrassment and so on. Like violently criticising someone and then finding that a dinner invitation is from the very person you have scorned - only a million times worse. Because they are in this state, had not accepted God's grace and salvation through Christ and cannot after death, they will continue to exist forever, but without God and his forgiveness, and in the shame, guilt, anguish and bondage of their sin.

I think it is this which causes burning (with shame) and gnashing of teeth (at their own blindness, and frustration.)
I used to think that hell was an actual place with actual real fires. I guess it may still prove to be so, but that raises the question, for me, "if God is everywhere then how come he isn't in hell too?"

As I say, I could well be wrong about this.
But the Bible is not wrong when it says that salvation and eternal life are through Jesus alone. Jesus is our Saviour and the only way to God. And that's not, Jesus + correct church practice, Jesus + the absence of loud music/dancing/instruments, Jesus + the "correct" church/interpretation of Scripture. No one can add to the finished work of Christ. It is Jesus who saves, only Jesus.
And Scripture says that if someone is saved they can receive the Holy Spirit who assures them that they are children of God, heirs with Christ and will receive a future inheritance.

bcbsr · Oct 18, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
It's easy to say "God is just" and "God is love" and "Hell is necessary to implement Divine Justice" when the one that is going there is, the other guy. But I wanted to see honest replies here, so please state in your comment, if you believe in a literal fiery hell where people suffer for eternity, no chance of parole.

I was raised in a denomination called the "Church of Christ", I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's extremely legalistic, we might say. No dancing. Musical instruments in the singing of hymns is a one-way ticket to fire and brimstone. They believe, and up until I was in my teens so did I, that they are the only true church. If you're not a member of the Church of Christ? Bad news. It's hell for you. It's hell fire. It's eternal horror for you.

Now, they "reason" much like any other literal "hellfire" teachers- it's completely moral and justified because "Divine Justice". God can't just not be Holy, and so you pay the price like any other "sinner". Because you're in the wrong church, and didn't understand the bible the right way. Did you trust God to guide your steps home to heaven? Doesn't matter because your feet are going into the fire. Did you pray for understanding day and night, and try and try to be a good Christian? Doesn't matter, you joined the wrong church. It's endless horror for you. Because Holy Justice.

So my question to you, if you are a literal "you're going to hell" teacher/believer who says this to others; if the dreadful day comes, and the Lord says to you "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire" would you still believe your own words about "Divine Justice" (or, whatever is the excuse for having such a literal end for people of any kind) justifying your eternal horror to come? It's one of those goose-gander questions.

If a Church of Christ member were right here telling you, you are going to burn in hell forever for not being in our church... would you agree with them that it would be just and holy and loving for God to thrust you into your eternal nightmare for, not understanding correctly? And bear in mind, to them, you are "willingly ignorant" and it is all your fault that you choose the wrong church; after all, the bible (to them) is easy to understand, and you have no excuse for your failure to leave your false Christian church and worship God rightly, as He commands: without musical instruments, and absolutely no dancing.

Also, if you're a member of the Church of Christ, I mean no offence to you at all. I respect your walk, and simply use this denomination as a hypothetical since I know the teachings concerning the other churches.

The "Church of Christ" is a Neo-Circumcision heretical sect, and as you allude to "the joke is on them" concerning the judgement day.

But those who trust the Lord Jesus will save them from the wrath to come will in fact be saved. This in contrast to the Neo-Circumcision sects (Catholicism, Church of Christ, etc) who view salvation as contingent upon their ongoing performance and thus trust in their works to save them. They live under the curse of the law.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

John Hyperspace · Oct 18, 2016

bcbsr said:
The "Church of Christ" is a Neo-Circumcision heretical sect, and as you allude to "the joke is on them" concerning the judgement day.

But those who trust the Lord Jesus will save them from the wrath to come will in fact be saved. This in contrast to the Neo-Circumcision sects (Catholicism, Church of Christ, etc) who view salvation as contingent upon their ongoing performance and thus trust in their works to save them. They live under the curse of the law.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

I don't disagree. But they really believe this is what the bible teaches. And they really believe that everyone not in their church is going to burn for eternity. And they really believe that God is morally justified for sending every, single other Christian not in their specific church to burn in hell for eternity. They use the same philosophy that, God is holy and cannot ignore "divine justice"; and this is why God is still "holy, good, and loving" for sentencing all Christians to burn in hell for eternity because they were not members of the "only right and true" church.

Now, the point of the thread is for Christians who are not of this church denomination, to think about that; and to understand that the exact same ethical justification that they use to justify others (especially other Christians) burning for hell for eternity, is the exact same justification being used by all "hellfire" preachers to justify "people who don't believe like I do" being sent to "burn in hell forever"

Any Christian who is honest (as, opposed to merely slamming his head against the wall of ignrance repeatedly saying 'How I understand it must be right; how I understand it must be right...') will admit that there is no justification for sentencing him to burn in hell for eternity, since he could not help but believe what he believed, and that his theological/worship error is not deserving of "eternal torture" but simply worthy of "correction"

In allegoric fashion: I'm sure everyone in this is of the mind "What a friend I have in Jesus" and that He is your "Shepherd" leading you to your goal. So, if the day comes, and you find yourself being lead into eternal horror; would you be saying "What a friend I have in Jesus"? Would you be saying, "This is entirely justified, that my Shepherd shepherded me into the eternal fire of suffering"? Anyone in this thread who responds to that question "Yes, the Shepherd is justified in shepherding the sheep into the fire of eternal suffering" is not only ethically wrong, but showing that they have no desire to even use an iota of thought in these matters.

John Hyperspace · Oct 18, 2016

Strong in Him said:
No. That's not true so I wouldn't believe them.

My view on hell - which I may not have fully thought through, and may be unorthodox is as follows.
When someone dies, I believe that they meet with God. I also believe that they are made whole and perfect - not in the sense of being without sin, but having perfect understanding, perfect bodies and perfect memory.
So people who rejected God while they were alive - not that they hadn't heard or didn't understand, but that they heard the Gospel, chose not to respond and never responded to any promptings - would be standing in front of God. They would know, without a shadow of doubt, that he exists, is holy, pure, able to forgive and that everything else they heard about him is true as well. They will also know that they are unforgiven sinners; that all their sin has been revealed for them, and God, to see, and that it is too late for them to repent and receive forgiveness.
Personally, I feel that standing in front of the God you have deliberately rejected and openly scorned would cause great shame, guilt, embarrassment and so on. Like violently criticising someone and then finding that a dinner invitation is from the very person you have scorned - only a million times worse. Because they are in this state, had not accepted God's grace and salvation through Christ and cannot after death, they will continue to exist forever, but without God and his forgiveness, and in the shame, guilt, anguish and bondage of their sin.

I think it is this which causes burning (with shame) and gnashing of teeth (at their own blindness, and frustration.)
I used to think that hell was an actual place with actual real fires. I guess it may still prove to be so, but that raises the question, for me, "if God is everywhere then how come he isn't in hell too?"

As I say, I could well be wrong about this.
But the Bible is not wrong when it says that salvation and eternal life are through Jesus alone. Jesus is our Saviour and the only way to God. And that's not, Jesus + correct church practice, Jesus + the absence of loud music/dancing/instruments, Jesus + the "correct" church/interpretation of Scripture. No one can add to the finished work of Christ. It is Jesus who saves, only Jesus.
And Scripture says that if someone is saved they can receive the Holy Spirit who assures them that they are children of God, heirs with Christ and will receive a future inheritance.

I don't necessarily disagree, but believe the "fire" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is reserved for Christians and not non-Christians. Jesus talks about those inside the kingdom that "offend" being "bound together to be burned"; and what we are really talking about here is, the judgment of the churches, and which Christians "overcame" and "receive inheritence of the Firstborn" (think, Jacob and Esau) and which Christians do not overcome, and do not receive inheritance of the Firstborn. Thus the warning, "their nakedness be revealed, and people see their shame" which judgment is "executed in the sight of many women (i.e. non-Christians will all bear witness to the "stripping naked" of those who entered the covenant, but did not uphold it in spirit and truth). Revelation 3:17, 2 Corinthians 5:3, Ezekiel 16:41

Hillsage · Oct 18, 2016

Ken Behrens said:
My grandma taught me to pick mulberries. I love them, get several quarts wild a year.

I'm jealous, and can only pick sand hill plums at 'our house'....in the sandhills...on a hill...in a cul-de-sac, at the end of Sage Hill Trail. Hence the inspiration for my username. :idea:

If you can be more specific, there may be some truth we can ferret out together.

I don't know if I'm following what 'specific' you're talking about. So I guess I need a specific question.

Paul had accepted God. I think God just wanted him to know about the recent upgrade in Judaism. The knock down and vision was just to get through the wall Paul had put up to Jesus. Like a donkey: you have to hit him with a 2 by 4 just to get his attention, but after that, he'll do anything.
(also said of some husbands by their wives, in case you do not like my first analogy).

For me Judaism was out and Jesus was in. And is accepting God, the doorway into Christianity? Or is it accepting Jesus. And accepting Jesus was the big 'stumbling stone' for Paul, just as it is for all unbelievers, right? So my point is/was; yes my dad also would have needed to be dealt with like God did Paul. But since God didn't, so I simply believe that, by God's will, my dad was not "predestined, called, drawn, chosen, elected" or "ordained to believe" by Him...in THIS AGE, that my dad lived in. Those are all 'God's will' terms, pertaining to who He's dealing with since Jesus and the NT, IMO. But God's plan for the ages to come will include my dad IMO.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Gee, how was I to know. I do hope she thanks you all the time.
You weren't 'to know' my business and that's why I 'cracked' the joke about my wife/business.

Oh, yes, the marriage bed is still happy at 67.

Love talking with you.

ditto, but this thread is moving so fast I haven't even had the time to read most of the posts since yesterday. We may not be talking 'on topic'. But we can both 'ride this donkey' and see what happens.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 18, 2016

smithed64 said:
We've been writing about Hell for sometime now. And not once have you asked to define it. And I have shown the scripture where it is called a place of literal fire in Revelations. So, the definition is already know and assumed to be the same definition for both.

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).

Again, please read this carefully...YOU ARE SENT TO HELL BECAUSE OF SIN...not confusion. But no one will be have any excuse as to why they didn't repent and place there trust in Christ. Everyone will know and most do know there is a God.
Everyone will know that there is judgment of God,coming. I didn't put 21-31 in below to save reading time, feel free to read it...it's an eye opener.
And as it says there in 32 everyone who commits these things, (sins) are worthy of death...other words deserve it.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I've not said anything blasphemous against or About God. I have used His Word.
I've not used His name vainly, nor have I used it to sin with.

My understanding of Hell is biblical, so not in error.

You have created a god in your own image who would not or should not punish sin, eternally or with torment, in which as shown above God does exactly that. Beware of who you say is blasphemous.

The definition of blasphemy is the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk

Which I have not done.

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• Malachi 4:1-3

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”

‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

...

John Hyperspace · Oct 18, 2016

smithed64 said:
We've been writing about Hell for sometime now. And not once have you asked to define it.

That's because you were the first to attempt demonstration by way of logical syllogism. Therefore, the question of definition was required.

smithed64 said:
And I have shown the scripture where it is called a place of literal fire in Revelations.

Firstly, I reject your appeal to a book of symbols as being "literal"; I presume you do not believe in a literal beast to be literally rising from the sea? Or, any of the other symbols in the prophetic book? I would then question, how you arrived at the conclusion that the "fire" in the book of the Revelation is to be taken as "literal fire" especially when the book itself is not only symbolic, but clearly shows this "fire" as capable of destroying abstract concepts such as "death and hell". I am certain literal fire has no power over abstract concepts.

Therefore, your appeal to the Revelation is in error. Also, I see nothing in the Revelation stating that those "flung into" this fire will, never come out, and that they will suffer for eternity.

Also, I'd like to cite a passage: Jeremiah 5:14. My question is, do you teach people that the prophet Jeremiah walked around spewing jets of literal fire at people? And that the people of Judah were literally made out of wood? If not, why not? It's written in the bible, is it not?

smithed64 said:
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

The first thing I notice is that this "fire" is reserved for "stumbling blocks" which are located in "His kingdom": so I see nothing here concerning "sinners" who are not "in His kingdom": so by this verse, we should expect to see people who profess to be "of Christ" being gathered to be burned. I also see nothing about "they will be burning forever", either.

So, you have cited a verse containing the word "fire": i want to know why you are again understanding this "literally"? Jesus also said John 6:53 Do you teach others that they must literally eat and drink the literal flesh and blood of Christ? If no, why not? The bible says so, I have cited the passage.

I will cite another: Matthew 13:34 If the bible says that Jesus did not speak to the multitude without parable, why do you take the words Jesus spoke to the multitudes as literal?

smithed64 said:
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Again, I reject these as "literal" until you can sufficiently demonstrate why you are taking words written in a book filled with symbols, as, literal? Also, I see nothing concerning the "all sinners will suffer for eternity" but a specific group of those which "took the mark of the beast"

smithed64 said:
Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Nothing here about "never coming out" nor about "everyone deserves this fate"; the nature of this "fire" is indeed "eternal" - the fire itself cannot be put out; this says nothing about whether this is "literal" or whether it is "parable" (although, the bible says that Jesus only spoke in parables so why do you not understand these things as parables?)

smithed64 said:
Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

"Eternal punishment" is not equivalent to "suffering horror in literal fire forever": also, why are you not understanding this as a parable?

smithed64 said:
Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

The fire is indeed eternal. God is also eternal. God is also a "consuming fire": Hebrews 12:29 Are you a literal fire worshipper?

smithed64 said:
Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable.

The bible says Jesus spoke in parables, why would I not consider this a parable? If this is "literal" would you mind explaining how a man immersed in literal fire can hold a conversation? Explain why the rich man's dialogue isn't comprised soley of "AHHHH! AHHHHH! AHHHH!"'s?

smithed64 said:
My understanding of Hell is biblical, so not in error.

I disagree, and maintain you have not demonstrated anything, except your ability to cut and paste the erroneous understandings of other men.

smithed64 said:
The definition of blasphemy is the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk

Which I have not done.

The word literally means "injure the name" (or, fame): if you are in error, and God is not a horrific monster who will cause people to suffer in horror forever, then you are indeed guilty of blasphemy in a very high degree, as to paint a benevolent and loving God, as a merciless and cruel monster is very injurious to the good character of His name. Indeed, you are responsible for a great many unbelievers rejecting God on the grounds that He is a "monster" because of what you are teaching them concerning His character of justice, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, and love.

This is why I advise very strong caution in flippantly maintaining this doctrine you're teaching with very serious consideration. If I were not 100% factually certain of this doctrine, I would not be teaching it whatsoever. You may reply "I am 100% factually certain" but then you would simply be guilty of, lying.

com7fy8 · Oct 18, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
it's extremely legalistic

That is not how to apply Christ's teaching of hell. Jesus does not use hell as a threat for controlling people > 1 Peter 2:21-23.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 18, 2016

God used the global flood and Sodom and Gomora as examples to all who live ungodly.
Jesus destroys the soul just as man can destroy the body.
The second death is related to the first death.
Eternal life or immortality is only for the saints by abiding in Jesus.
Variations on the word destruction like perish, being like smoke, stubble, being burned up, and corpses (lifeless husks) are all in reference to the wicked.
Everlasting punishment is in reference to everlasting destruction that Paul talks about in 2nd Thessalonians.

In other words, there is no such thing as Eternal Concious Torment.

...

1213 · Oct 18, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
Try to understand that it's not about what the words are but how you understand those words. This is the big problem with the understanding going on in these erroneous doctrines; those people saying "Well, that's what the bible says..." then my reponse to you is this verse (among thousands):

John 6:53

Now, unless you have found the corpse of Jesus and ate the flesh? Drank the blood? Then I take it that you have no life in you?

Yeah, nobody really ate the physical body of Jesus, so it must have some other meaning?

smithed64 · Oct 18, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

Click to expand...

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

Okay, let's break this down a little. First and foremost it has nothing to do with the heresy of universalism or annihilationist.

vv 22-23 For as the new heavens, The new state of the church to be raised up under the Messiah; shall remain before me — Unalterable. As the gospel dispensation is to be continued till the end of time, and not to be succeeded by any other; as it shall therefore remain, because it is before me, under my eye, my care, and special protection; so shall your seed and your name remain — A seed of ministers, a seed of Christians. As one generation of both passeth away, another generation shall come, and thus the name of Christ, with that of Christians, shall continue on earth while the earth remains, and his throne as the days of heaven! The gates of hell, though they fight against the church, shall not prevail against it, nor wear out the saints of the Most High: for there shall be a daily succession of true believers for the upholding of it; for, if believers could fail from the earth, the church, made up of them only, as the true members of it, must fail also. And from one new-moon to another, In the gospel church there shall be as constant and settled a course of worship, (though of another nature,) as ever was in the Jewish Church. This is described in expressions suited to the Old Testament dispensation, to show that, though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service at an end, yet God should be still as regularly, statedly, and acceptedly worshipped as ever. Heretofore the Jews were only obliged to appear three times in a year at the place of God’s public worship, but, saith the prophet, in the gospel church people shall worship from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another — They shall be perpetually employed in serving and glorifying him, although in different ways. Their state shall be one continued festival. And whereas, under the former dispensation, the Jews only were bound to attend God’s worship at the great feasts, and of them only the males; now, under the new dispensation, all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God — That is, shall worship in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all over the world, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews: God will in them record his name; and, though but two or three come together, he will be in the midst of them, will meet and bless them.

Now to the meat.

v 24 The outward imagery is suggested, as in Joel 3:12; Zechariah 14:12, by that of the great battle of the Lord (Isaiah 66:15-16). Those who are slain in that battle are thought of as filling the valleys round about Jerusalem, especially the valley of Jehoshaphat (“Jehovah judges “), devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna (Ecclesiasticus 8:17; Judith 16:17, and the Targum on this passage), of the words in which our Lord Himself gave utterance to what, at least, seemed to express those thoughts (Mark 9:44-48), of the dominant eschatology of Christendom.
Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm, whether those two agents represent sufferings of sense or spirit. The one aspect of the future life which they tend to exclude is that which presents the idea of a suffering that may be purifying. That idea is not without apparent support in other passages of Scripture (e.g., Romans 5:17-21; Romans 11:32; 1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); but we cannot say that it entered into the prophet’s thoughts here. What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists.

I will come back, there's a lot here to clear up.

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• Malachi 4:1-3

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

...

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 18, 2016

1213 said:
Yeah, nobody really ate the physical body of Jesus, so it must have some other meaning?

Nobody Righteous ever drank blood either. Good observation.
Jesus explained this clearly.
There is nothing hidden or secret about it.
See in SCRIPTURE - JESUS WORD where HE SAYS "these are MY WORD, MY WORD is SPIRIT, and LIFE" not word of physical flesh or blood or disgusting anti-truth dogma or lying doctrine of men. The enemy made inroads and changed a lot of things by men.
YHWH preserves and guards HIS WORD, and all who trust and rely on HIM, in Y'SHUA MESSIAH SAVIOR KING.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 18, 2016

smithed64 said:
Okay, let's break this down a little. First and foremost it has nothing to do with the heresy of universalism or annihilationist.

vv 22-23 For as the new heavens, The new state of the church to be raised up under the Messiah; shall remain before me — Unalterable. As the gospel dispensation is to be continued till the end of time, and not to be succeeded by any other; as it shall therefore remain, because it is before me, under my eye, my care, and special protection; so shall your seed and your name remain — A seed of ministers, a seed of Christians. As one generation of both passeth away, another generation shall come, and thus the name of Christ, with that of Christians, shall continue on earth while the earth remains, and his throne as the days of heaven! The gates of hell, though they fight against the church, shall not prevail against it, nor wear out the saints of the Most High: for there shall be a daily succession of true believers for the upholding of it; for, if believers could fail from the earth, the church, made up of them only, as the true members of it, must fail also. And from one new-moon to another, In the gospel church there shall be as constant and settled a course of worship, (though of another nature,) as ever was in the Jewish Church. This is described in expressions suited to the Old Testament dispensation, to show that, though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service at an end, yet God should be still as regularly, statedly, and acceptedly worshipped as ever. Heretofore the Jews were only obliged to appear three times in a year at the place of God’s public worship, but, saith the prophet, in the gospel church people shall worship from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another — They shall be perpetually employed in serving and glorifying him, although in different ways. Their state shall be one continued festival. And whereas, under the former dispensation, the Jews only were bound to attend God’s worship at the great feasts, and of them only the males; now, under the new dispensation, all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God — That is, shall worship in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all over the world, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews: God will in them record his name; and, though but two or three come together, he will be in the midst of them, will meet and bless them.

Now to the meat.

v 24 The outward imagery is suggested, as in Joel 3:12; Zechariah 14:12, by that of the great battle of the Lord (Isaiah 66:15-16). Those who are slain in that battle are thought of as filling the valleys round about Jerusalem, especially the valley of Jehoshaphat (“Jehovah judges “), devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna (Ecclesiasticus 8:17; Judith 16:17, and the Targum on this passage), of the words in which our Lord Himself gave utterance to what, at least, seemed to express those thoughts (Mark 9:44-48), of the dominant eschatology of Christendom.
Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm, whether those two agents represent sufferings of sense or spirit. The one aspect of the future life which they tend to exclude is that which presents the idea of a suffering that may be purifying. That idea is not without apparent support in other passages of Scripture (e.g., Romans 5:17-21; Romans 11:32; 1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); but we cannot say that it entered into the prophet’s thoughts here. What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists.

I will come back, there's a lot here to clear up.

Before we begin, explain to me how it is loving, just, and good to torture someone for eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed?

Even punishment for committing a crime against an important person has it's limits.

Can you explain your odd sense of justice using a real world example?

...

John Hyperspace · Oct 18, 2016

smithed64 said:
Okay, let's break this down a little. First and foremost it has nothing to do with the heresy of universalism or annihilationist.

vv 22-23 For as the new heavens, The new state of the church to be raised up under the Messiah; shall remain before me — Unalterable. As the gospel dispensation is to be continued till the end of time, and not to be succeeded by any other; as it shall therefore remain, because it is before me, under my eye, my care, and special protection; so shall your seed and your name remain — A seed of ministers, a seed of Christians. As one generation of both passeth away, another generation shall come, and thus the name of Christ, with that of Christians, shall continue on earth while the earth remains, and his throne as the days of heaven! The gates of hell, though they fight against the church, shall not prevail against it, nor wear out the saints of the Most High: for there shall be a daily succession of true believers for the upholding of it; for, if believers could fail from the earth, the church, made up of them only, as the true members of it, must fail also. And from one new-moon to another, In the gospel church there shall be as constant and settled a course of worship, (though of another nature,) as ever was in the Jewish Church. This is described in expressions suited to the Old Testament dispensation, to show that, though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service at an end, yet God should be still as regularly, statedly, and acceptedly worshipped as ever. Heretofore the Jews were only obliged to appear three times in a year at the place of God’s public worship, but, saith the prophet, in the gospel church people shall worship from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another — They shall be perpetually employed in serving and glorifying him, although in different ways. Their state shall be one continued festival. And whereas, under the former dispensation, the Jews only were bound to attend God’s worship at the great feasts, and of them only the males; now, under the new dispensation, all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God — That is, shall worship in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all over the world, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews: God will in them record his name; and, though but two or three come together, he will be in the midst of them, will meet and bless them.

Now to the meat.

v 24 The outward imagery is suggested, as in Joel 3:12; Zechariah 14:12, by that of the great battle of the Lord (Isaiah 66:15-16). Those who are slain in that battle are thought of as filling the valleys round about Jerusalem, especially the valley of Jehoshaphat (“Jehovah judges “), devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna (Ecclesiasticus 8:17; Judith 16:17, and the Targum on this passage), of the words in which our Lord Himself gave utterance to what, at least, seemed to express those thoughts (Mark 9:44-48), of the dominant eschatology of Christendom.
Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm, whether those two agents represent sufferings of sense or spirit. The one aspect of the future life which they tend to exclude is that which presents the idea of a suffering that may be purifying. That idea is not without apparent support in other passages of Scripture (e.g., Romans 5:17-21; Romans 11:32; 1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); but we cannot say that it entered into the prophet’s thoughts here. What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists.

I will come back, there's a lot here to clear up.

Before we tackle these other things, could you reply to this verse: Jeremiah 5:14 and whether or not you understand this verse as indicating that Jeremiah literally breathed literal fire upon people who were literally turned into wood? Also, could you comment the same on these verses and whether or not the fire coming out of these mouths is literal fire: Revelation 9:17-18, Revelation 11:5

smithed64 · Oct 18, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Before we begin, explain to me how it is loving, just, and good to torture someone for eternity for a finite amount of crimes committed?

Even punishment for committing a crime against an important person has it's limits.

Can you explain your odd sense of justice using a real world example?

...

Yep, it isn't an odd sense of justice, we got our justice system from the scriptures also. Granted it's been skewed, and taken advantage of these days. But in the beginning, it was quite a good justice system.

If a judge in a criminal case has a guilty murderer standing before him, the judge, if he is a good man, can’t just let him go. He must ensure that the guilty man is punished. If God is good, He must (by nature) punish murders, rapist, thieves, liars, adulterers, fornicators and those who’ve lived in rebellion to God.

And because God is eternal, He therefore punishes eternally. He is a just God. He makes a way out of going to Hell. But people want to hold on to their sins and try to serve God. That's called a Hypocrite. The scriptures tell us you can't serve God and live worldly at the same time. You can't serve two Masters.
We who are Born Again, live in the world, not the world living in us.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Your right the punishment of commiting a crime against someone important is limited....let's check that out.

If I stole some money from my son, there's not much he could do about it
If I stole some money from my wife, She could get angry with me and make me sleep on the couch.
If I stole some money from my work, I'd get fired, and probably prosecuted.
If I stole from the government, I'd go to prison.

So your right, the levels of punishment are different depending on who I stole from. Well stealing is a sin, Thou shalt not steal. And when you sin, you sin directly against God.

Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

And because when we sin, its against God. He is justified to judge us righteously. Because His Laws are righteous. And the punishment for unrepentant sin, is Hell.
And it's eternal,because God is eternal.

John Hyperspace · Oct 18, 2016

smithed64 said:
Yep, it isn't an odd sense of justice, we got our justice system from the scriptures also. Granted it's been skewed, and taken advantage of these days. But in the beginning, it was quite a good justice system.

If a judge in a criminal case has a guilty murderer standing before him, the judge, if he is a good man, can’t just let him go. He must ensure that the guilty man is punished. If God is good, He must (by nature) punish murders, rapist, thieves, liars, adulterers, fornicators and those who’ve lived in rebellion to God.

And because God is eternal, He therefore punishes eternally. He is a just God. He makes a way out of going to Hell. But people want to hold on to their sins and try to serve God. That's called a Hypocrite. The scriptures tell us you can't serve God and live worldly at the same time. You can't serve two Masters.
We who are Born Again, live in the world, not the world living in us.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Your right the punishment of commiting a crime against someone important is limited....let's check that out.

If I stole some money from my son, there's not much he could do about it
If I stole some money from my wife, She could get angry with me and make me sleep on the couch.
If I stole some money from my work, I'd get fired, and probably prosecuted.
If I stole from the government, I'd go to prison.

So your right, the levels of punishment are different depending on who I stole from. Well stealing is a sin, Thou shalt not steal. And when you sin, you sin directly against God.

Ps 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

And because when we sin, its against God. He is justified to judge us righteously. Because His Laws are righteous. And the punishment for unrepentant sin, is Hell.
And it's eternal,because God is eternal.

Again, I have a simple request: could you reply to this verse: Jeremiah 5:14 and whether or not you understand this verse as indicating that Jeremiah literally breathed literal fire upon people who were literally turned into wood? Also, could you comment the same on these verses and whether or not the fire coming out of these mouths is literal fire: Revelation 9:17-18, Revelation 11:5

smithed64 · Oct 18, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
Again, I have a simple request: could you reply to this verse: Jeremiah 5:14 and whether or not you understand this verse as indicating that Jeremiah literally breathed literal fire upon people who were literally turned into wood? Also, could you comment the same on these verses and whether or not the fire coming out of these mouths is literal fire: Revelation 9:17-18, Revelation 11:5

I'm sure you heard of metaphors...that what they are.
God used them to keep it simple. I have mentioned this before I believe. It may have been in another thread. If I haven't mentioned here before now, please forgive me.

The bible can be taken literal.
There are parables, is a comparison of two things, often done through a story that has two meanings. Luke 10:25-37
There are hyperboles - exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. Like where Christ tells us to hate our fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters. Luke 14:26
Then there allegories - a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one. syn.. of metaphor

All types of writing is in the Bible. But it can be literal also.
There is a literal God
Literal Christ
Literal Holy Ghost
Literal Man
Literal Sin
Literal Death
Literal Crucifixion
Literal resurrection
Literal Salvation
Literal Heaven
Literal Hell

Literal Creation...
And a whole lot more where those come from...the Bible.

What if it were you?

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