Tithes .. the systems way to wrangle money out of your pocket by emotional manipulations

pdudgeon · Oct 17, 2016

Alithis said:
i agree ...
but on the count of Jesus using the term tithe .. that does not mean he was instigating it for the church (his body ) he was speaking of the system of law they were under at that time . the only instruction we have is that each should give according as he has purposed in his heart -and cheerfully .

and unfortunately most (but not all) who shun the tithe haven't learned to give cheerfully.

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

Jim Langston said:
Okay, it seems this entire discussion is hung up on two things.

1. The legalism of 10%
2. Funding man made buildings.

For 1 I agree that the 10% figure was never given to gentiles, only the Jews. I agree that you don't have to give a dime to church. That being said, every time you attend a church building and don't support the ministry there you are, in effect, stealing from the congregation. It you don't attend a Christian synagogue you don't have to support it. The second you walk in that door, however, consider who is paying for you to be able to attend. Someone has to pay the bills, if it is not you it is your neighbor and is it loving your neighbor as your self if you make them carry your weight?

2. Funding man made Christian synagogues where God does not dwell. It is very clear in the bible that God does not dwell in buildings made by man. That being said, Jesus attended the Jewish synagogue regularly. Just search the NT for "synagogue". Yes, a few places it refers to a group of people such as "the synagogue of satan". In other places it appears to be a building Jesus went to the synagogue to teach" for instance. There are enough references in the NT to indicate that this was a building. The answer is symple, though, if you attend the Christian synagogue you need to support it.

This leaves the third point not listed above, the poor, widows and orphans. I think tbe bible is clear that it is the duty of the church to support them, either directly from the members of the congregation or from the church funds. I can recite the scripture where Paul says if there are any widows among you support them yourselves so the church can support the true widows, if pressed.

That all being said, I think that if you are paying less than 10% in support of the poor and/or a church home you aren't doing your christian part and other Christians are having to pay your share, or people are simply doing without. Yes, people still are starving in some places in America. If you can't find your neighbor that needs your help you simply haven't looked hard enough.

this returns to the assumption "that" building is the ministry ... in so many cases it is not . and to fund it would be to fund ( to speak in extreme terms ) a most ungodly act .
them point you raise in regard to widows etc is excellent ..if a group of spirit filled believers gather and those that are in hardship such as widows or whichever ,whom we have learned of their hardship through the breaking of bread (a meal together) discussion ,edifying conversations . then leave without some form of aid being immediately gifted to them by all others ..then that would be akin to saying god bless you be clothed and filled and yet giving them nothing to clothe or fill them . and lest be honest .. tithes and offerings are taken out back counted .allotted first to mortgages and bills to pay the world whom they are become slaves to .. FIRST.. and then ,after salaries and wages etc ..the crumbs may in some RARE cases be passed to this or that person whom is in hardship -but this is rarely ever done in a western man built church building system . (not saying it isn't done ) .

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

pdudgeon said:
my traditions are Catholic from the first church. if yours are anything else then they are man made.

start a new thread as that assumption is preposterous coming from a man made system which built cathedrals on the backs of the poor and suffering

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

pdudgeon said:
LOL, that foolishness is in the NT also. Luke 14:28

good grief .. typical misdirecting ambiguity .

pdudgeon · Oct 17, 2016

pdudgeon · Oct 17, 2016

Alithis said:
start a new thread as that assumption is preposterous coming from a man made system which built cathedrals on the backs of the poor and suffering

wrong again.

Church2u2 · Oct 17, 2016

Hi.Well I've been handing my ten percent into the special tither's envelope every since I've held a job. Even before I got really serious about my salvation I paid my tithes.And I don't know about anyone else but I got blessed because of my tithe paying ways. My church uses our ten percent for the ministry. The bills get paid on time,we recently got a newer model church van and we see the usefulness of our ten percent as far as the upkeep of the ministry.

Jim Langston · Oct 17, 2016

Alithis said:
this returns to the assumption "that" building is the ministry ... in so many cases it is not . and to fund it would be to fund ( to speak in extreme terms ) a most ungodly act .
them point you raise in regard to widows etc is excellent ..if a group of spirit filled believers gather and those that are in hardship such as widows or whichever ,whom we have learned of their hardship through the breaking of bread (a meal together) discussion ,edifying conversations . then leave without some form of aid being immediately gifted to them by all others ..then that would be akin to saying god bless you be clothed and filled and yet giving them nothing to clothe or fill them . and lest be honest .. tithes and offerings are taken out back counted .allotted first to mortgages and bills to pay the world whom they are become slaves to .. FIRST.. and then ,after salaries and wages etc ..the crumbs may in some RARE cases be passed to this or that person whom is in hardship -but this is rarely ever done in a western man built church building system . (not saying it isn't done ) .

This quite clearly is a building.

Acts 13:14 (KJV)
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

This is quite clearly a building.

Acts 18:7 (KJV)
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Other uses of the word "synagogue". Some of them can be interpreted the same way "church" is, as a congregation. In others it seems clear it is talking about a location.

Matthew 12:9 (KJV)
And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mark 1:23 (KJV)
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Luke 4:28 (KJV)
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 7:5 (KJV)
For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
John 6:59 (KJV)
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Acts 18:4 (KJV)
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 6:9 (KJV)
Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Mark 1:21 (KJV)
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mark 3:1 (KJV)
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
Acts 17:1 (KJV)
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was asynagogue of the Jews:
Acts 22:19 (KJV)
And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Mark 1:29 (KJV)
And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
Mark 5:22 (KJV)
And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
Mark 5:35 (KJV)
While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?
Mark 5:36 (KJV)
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 5:38 (KJV)
And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
Luke 4:33 (KJV)
And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 4:38 (KJV)
And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.
Luke 6:6 (KJV)
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
Luke 8:49 (KJV)
While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
Acts 13:14 (KJV)
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Acts 13:42 (KJV)
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 17:10 (KJV)
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:17 (KJV)
Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Acts 18:7 (KJV)
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

Church2u2 said:
Hi.Well I've been handing my ten percent into the special tither's envelope every since I've held a job. Even before I got really serious about my salvation I paid my tithes.And I don't know about anyone else but I got blessed because of my tithe paying ways. My church uses our ten percent for the ministry. The bills get paid on time,we recently got a newer model church van and we see the usefulness of our ten percent as far as the upkeep of the ministry.

no one has ever said the scripture is not true .. what you sow ..you reap , that principle remains unchanged .but its not really the topic here

Church2u2 · Oct 17, 2016

Alithis said:
no one has ever said the scripture is not true .. what you sow ..you reap , that principle remains unchanged .but its not really the topic here

Oh yeah. Well excuse me for wandering down the yellow brick road.

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

Jim Langston said:
This quite clearly is a building.

Acts 13:14 (KJV)
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

This is quite clearly a building.

Acts 18:7 (KJV)

And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Other uses of the word "synagogue". Some of them can be interpreted the same way "church" is, as a congregation. In others it seems clear it is talking about a location.

Matthew 12:9 (KJV)
And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

Mark 1:23 (KJV)
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

Luke 4:28 (KJV)
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Luke 7:5 (KJV)
For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

John 6:59 (KJV)
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Acts 18:4 (KJV)
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 6:9 (KJV)
Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

Mark 1:21 (KJV)
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 3:1 (KJV)
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Acts 17:1 (KJV)
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was asynagogue of the Jews:

Acts 22:19 (KJV)
And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Mark 1:29 (KJV)
And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

Mark 5:22 (KJV)
And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,

Mark 5:35 (KJV)
While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

Mark 5:36 (KJV)
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Mark 5:38 (KJV)
And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.

Luke 4:33 (KJV)
And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

Luke 4:38 (KJV)
And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

Luke 6:6 (KJV)
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Luke 8:49 (KJV)
While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

Acts 13:14 (KJV)
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:42 (KJV)
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 17:10 (KJV)
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Acts 17:17 (KJV)
Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 18:7 (KJV)
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

none of these .. ZERO have anything to do with the great commission ..Paul always entered synagogues with the express purpose of preaching the gospel to those unsaved people meeting in them . your first reference alone displays this if you read the sentence in its context .. and don't pluck it out to force fit a tradition . Paul never went out to build them and he never preached they be built . he was simply going to where ever the people were gathered to preach the gospel and in a lot of cases they threw hi out and had him arrested and flogged for doing so .
he also spoke of the church in terms of being "people" never a structural building . these verses are plucking at loose straws .. there is no clear directive from the lord Jesus in these verses to go out and build buildings .
we see in the Chinese churches (congregations of believers ) that they number towards 200milion and they have never been allowed to own have or build such structures and it has hindered the not one but . proving that the requirement of their existence in the west is farcical

Alithis · Oct 17, 2016

Church2u2 said:
Oh yeah. Well excuse me for wandering down the yellow brick road.

lol , we do enjoy a sunny day stroll .

thesunisout · Oct 17, 2016

Alithis said:
now lets make one thing clear
give -give and give as you feel to in your heart moved by a need seen, a compassion felt ,the speaking of the holy Spirit to your heart .. give and give and don't stop giving as you are able . we are not our own we are purchased with great price we belong to god, everything we have is his and everything he has -is ours in Christ .

but the law of tithe ..is just that .law under a covenant we are not under .

what few realize is that under the new testament .. not one place do we see the "law of the tithe " mentioned ,taught ,imposed .. except for ... oh wait , nope, still NO WHERE .

so why is it taught? and why is it imposed? and where it is not imposed why is it strongly emotionally suggested ?
for one reason - man made need to fund man made programs that further increase costs further fueling the need to promote this "law" and impose it on people.
we know the church is not a building ,we know the temple is not a building we know we are the living temple ..so why do we insist on ignoring the living temple and building ourselves -at HUGE cost $$-,shrines of worship .the lord JESUS never told us to do it . so who did .. is there another lord at work? -not in my life .

free yourselves from this false hood .. instead of tithing . start praying lord what would you like me to give where do YOU desire me to give it ,to whom ..
stop pouring it into some man made mortgage payment -let the building of brick and concrete and glass fall and the living temple of God rise to the work of the Gospel . .

The New Testament standard is actually much higher than the tithe..it's 100 percent. I think a lot of people use the excuse that we're not under the law to give little or nothing. Doesn't really seem to concern the church though..only 1.5 million US christians tithe and most of them give less than Christians did during the great depression.

Hank77 · Oct 18, 2016

Soyeong said:
Do you see a temple? I don't. Paul continued to offer sacrifices as part of his vow in Acts 18:18 (Numbers 6) was was going to pay for the sacrifices of others who had taken the same vow in Acts 21:20-24 to show that he continued to live in obedience to God's law. Sacrifices didn't stop with the death, resurrection, or ascension of Jesus, but with the destruction of the temple, and the Bible prophesies a time when a third temple will be built and sacrifices will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). So it's a bit like you are asking me why I am not keeping the Sabbath while it is Thursday. The law to keep the Sabbath only applies when it is the 7th day and some parking laws only apply during certain hours, so many laws have conditions under which they apply, and the condition for the laws in regard to temple practice is that there is a temple in which to practice them. So there is a difference between saying that we should not obey one of God's commands and saying that the conditions under which God's command applies have not been met.

If you believe that Jesus practiced what he preached and preached what he practiced, and that he practiced obedience to God's law, then you should believe that he commanded obedience to God's law. Jesus demonstrated his love for us through his obedience to the law, so that is the example of how we are to love, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates instructing us to follow his commands with instructing us to walk in the same way that he walked, so they are one in the same.

Why were all the tithes for the fruit of the earth and the animals God created? Why didn't masons, weavers, fishermen, carpenters, etc. pay tithes?

Hank77 · Oct 18, 2016

pdudgeon said:
why do you believe that we are free from the law?

Catholic Answers.....
Although the Church teaches that offering some form of material support to the Church is obligatory for all Catholic adults who are able to do so, it doesn't specify what percent of one's income should be given. Remember, tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church.

The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of the week [Sunday] each of you should set aside whatever he can afford," and in 2 Corinthians 9:5-8,

To paraphrase: God doesn't demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that's extortion. If they give freely and cheerfully the amount they are able, that's a gift.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-tithing

This part isn't to you pdudgeon.
We are no longer, not even the Jews, under the Law of Moses. It seems to me that the Catholic Church has never had any problem with people giving willingly from the heart, by grace, without be told they have to under the Law of the tithe.

Hank77 · Oct 18, 2016

Church2u2 said:
Hi.Well I've been handing my ten percent into the special tither's envelope every since I've held a job. Even before I got really serious about my salvation I paid my tithes.And I don't know about anyone else but I got blessed because of my tithe paying ways. My church uses our ten percent for the ministry. The bills get paid on time,we recently got a newer model church van and we see the usefulness of our ten percent as far as the upkeep of the ministry.

As long as your bills get paid and your family doesn't go hungry, that's wonderful.

Alithis · Oct 18, 2016

thesunisout said:
The New Testament standard is actually much higher than the tithe..it's 100 percent. I think a lot of people use the excuse that we're not under the law to give little or nothing. Doesn't really seem to concern the church though..only 1.5 million US christians tithe and most of them give less than Christians did during the great depression.

perhaps because we struggle to take up the cross yet still like to title ourselves "Christian ' .. i'm in the midst of this struggle now ..to fully step into what the lord is calling me (and ALL who will listen ) to .-the harvest

(and HI thesunisout ..long time no see

)

Alithis · Oct 18, 2016

Hank77 said:
As long as your bills get paid and your family doesn't go hungry, that's wonderful.

interesting ... is it not ? why do we need to pay those bills ? because we (note i include myself in the term "we" ) are entangled in the cares of this world .. this is what the lords been dealing with me about this past 9 months .. we are all one of the 4 soils and it would take bald faced liar to say we are not all soil number 3 at best ... tangled in the cares of this world the deceitfulness of riches. choking us so that we never quite become truly fruitful ..

Church2u2 · Oct 18, 2016

Hank77 said:
As long as your bills get paid and your family doesn't go hungry, that's wonderful.

Hi.Well yes I make sure to pay my personal bills and feed the rugrats .

Hank77 · Oct 18, 2016

Alithis said:
interesting ... is it not ? why do we need to pay those bills ? because we (note i include myself in the term "we" ) are entangled in the cares of this world .. this is what the lords been dealing with me about this past 9 months .. we are all one of the 4 soils and it would take bald faced liar to say we are not all soil number 3 at best ... tangled in the cares of this world the deceitfulness of riches. choking us so that we never quite become truly fruitful ..

Well many people live in very cold winter places so must in live indoors. And then there is heat, electric, water, sewer and trash. Home repairs. Many of us have to drive to work so need to keep a car running and buy gas, tires, oil, etc. Clothes, which those rugrats out grown every time you turn around. Cleaning supplies, personal hygiene supplies, medical bills, and food, food is good. Yes bills. Things that you have promised and are obligated to pay and pay in a timely manner. If you don't you are a very poor representative for the Body of Christ.

Tithes .. the systems way to wrangle money out of your pocket by emotional manipulations

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