CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

razzelflabben · Oct 16, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
I do agree and believe without doubt prophecy is given so that we will know what to expect and not be surprised. This is somewhat my point, without certain knowledge, we can be surprised. Either prophecy (and, by extension the God giving the prophecy through His Spirit) is designed to give 100% certain knowledge which we liken to a "rock" to stand on, or it is giving us ambiguous information that we have to guess at and look around and hope we're piecing it together correctly; but this is not certainty, it's uncertainty- it's "sand"; meaning we may not understand it yet, but when we do come to understand the prophecy, it relays to us a "this is certainly true" and not "this might be what it means": "maybe's" and "might be's" are just, not good enough.

where we may not know what exactly the mark of the beast is at this time, I have no doubt in my mind that when it is upon us everyone guided by the HS will know what it is and what to do about it. But the OP question was more along the lines of could it be a chip. I say, yep, it could be.

There is argument for ignorance in scripture: John 15:22, Romans 7:9, Acts 17:30. It stands up in the court of God; the only reason we don't allow it in earthly courts is because we can't be sure who is really ignorant, and who is just using it as an excuse: but God does know, and ignorance is an excuse. The Romans verse you're quoting concerning those "without excuse" is saying that they are not ignorant of the things "clearly seen" and therefore clearly known. But this is not the same as being ignorant of what a symbol in an apocalyptic book is meaning, especially when people are deluged from every side with conflicting interpretations of what the symbol means.

notice what I said...I said that there is a case that can be made for ignorance but given the totality of scripture I don't think we can make that claim here. Let me explain a bit more. Currently I am studying (big study) the power of Love (Biblical Love) the first of the powers I am looking into is the power to NOT be deceived. IOW's the indwelling HS gives us the power to NOT be deceived. Now where ignorance and deception are different, much ignorance is based somewhere in deception making it hard to make your assumed case of ignorance a valid argument. Like I said, it can be argued from scripture but given the totality of scripture I find it really hard to accept this argument here in this discussion. If we were arguing about something or other being a sin or not, like using the computer, I might be able to accept it but given a look at the prophecy and the detail of it, I find it hard to make that claim.

But speaking of this ignorance: Psalms 73:22: see here how the psalmist is saying "as a beast"? This use of beast, is all through the bible, and is meaning, ignorance; and here at the Revelation the beast rising out of the sea is no different: it is the "ignorant" worldly religion (displayed in fullness in the Laodecian church, the 7th of the 7 churches being addressed by the Spirit) - and the "mark" of the beast is fulfilled in this ignorance of worldly religion masquerading as true religion. But it is foolishness to God: it is the worldly mind that seeks to understand the words of God after the worldly things. The mark isn't a worldly thing, it is a spiritual mark, just as the seal of God "in the forehead" isn't a literal, worldly seal; it's a spiritual thing. These opposing marks are in the way of mind is understanding the words of God.

I think you are putting too much into the idea of ignorance and the above testifies to that.

And so God said, bind My words on your hand and your forehead; and the Jews make little boxes to put bible verses in, so everyone can "see" how righteous they are in their worldly image. Matthew 23:5 as opposed to Matthew 6:5-6. And we are seeing these two opposing forms of religion being presented for judgment in the Revelation: the one being called Jerusalem, and the other, Babylon.

True, but we have to know what we're looking for. Remember that the prophecies about Christ told the Jews what to be looking for, they were even in expectation: Luke 3:15. But most of them missed it. They were looking for something, but they didn't understand what they were supposed to be looking for. What deceived them? The worldly-minded understanding of prophecy. The expected a worldly kingdom, and a worldly king, to fight off their worldly oppressors. It was because of the exact same worldly spirit at work today, which is that veil over the eyes, blinding people to the truth of the spirit.

and today, we have the HS who keeps us from being deceived if we trust and rely on Him, the Jews of the day didn't have this HS.

Exactly my point. But do you think this is what God intends? That this is why God wrote the words in the book? So that we couldn't really understand them? And be left in a state of "could be" or "might not"? We're all placing a rightful amount of seriousness onto this issue of this "mark" and the consequences of receiving it. Would God really leave us to sweat and say "maybe?" with so much on the line? Or, would you think God would make it absolutely clear to us so that we can actually say "I know it"? Which is more inline with the character of God?

I believe with all my heart that given the totality of scripture, that when the time comes for us to know, every single person who is guided by the HS even those who have never heard about the mark of the beast will know by the witness of that very same HS that it is not to be had.

On the idea of "receiving the mark" note these verse: 1 Corinthians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 11:4

Truthfully, I'm pretty disconnected from the function of society, even now I don't use money, and get my supplies from family, so a "microchip" would be insignificant to me, and I would dismiss it, able and willing to function without it. Though, I'm not saying this makes me "righteous" or that people should emulate me to "keep the word of God"; it's simply how I am. I prefer not to engage in the workings of enconomy and society. I don't seek what it can give.

that is today, the world is changing in case you haven't noticed.

But if the government were to demand it, I wouldn't hesitate or forbid. If people asked "Are you afraid it's the mark?" I would reply, "No. This is not the mark; though someone is apparently wanting people to think that it is." They could put a microchip in every part of my body and it wouldn't have any effect on my love of God, my love of others, and my absolute trust in God and God alone.

I think that is between you and the HS...iow's if the HS said to me, "this is the mark and I warned you," I wouldn't hesitate to refuse it. Why? Obedience to my Lord and King. You can try to make excuses if you want, but for me, I will obey.

But I will agree that if someone is sweating and thinks the chip is the mark, I would advise they do not go against their conscience, because: 1 John 3:20-21

Conscience has nothing to do with it, the witness of the HS does. I don't think we can know what the mark is before it is upon us, we can speculate, we can guess, but we cannot know. when it is here, I have no doubt God will witness to every believer who is guided by the HS. It's really that simple.

Original Happy Camper · Oct 16, 2016

razzelflabben said:
Conscience has nothing to do with it, the witness of the HS does. I don't think we can know what the mark is before it is upon us, we can speculate, we can guess, but we cannot know. when it is here, I have no doubt God will witness to every believer who is guided by the HS. It's really that simple.

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Your statement goes against the word of GOD.

Sabbathkeeper&Wife · Oct 16, 2016

Dan. 7:23-. Nothing's changed, folks.

Thus he said, The fourth BEAST shall be the fourth KINGDOM upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Once you establish what a beast is, then you proceed to figure out what the MARK......OF THE BEAST is. We have discerned that it is satanic in origin, correct? Scripture says it's a kingdom, one following others before. On page 4, I gave several verses that come from Dan. & Rev., starting with the description of the first 4, which are the same in both books, but inverted in order because Daniel was WAY back at the first & second (Babylon & Medo-Persia) looking forward. John was on a Roman prison island, looking back. Thus the inverted order. If you look at Daniel, the 4th beast basically never "ceases to be" until the end, when Christ returns. Rev. gives more detail on the 4th, which has a deadly wound that eventually Heald, but is aided by a new power, which eventually forces/causes or whatever, to get the world to re-follow the beast 4, which had the wound. After all this happens, Jesus comes back, so it's obviously the same group of beasts and the end is still the end. Daniel says the dragon gave the beast his seat and authority. Rev. does too. Daniel tells , in pretty great detail, of the identity of these 4. Keep in mind, the iron legs of the statue in Dan. 2. The latter descriptions in Daniel are the same as the ones in 2. John was in the ROMAN prison for saying Jesus was the Prince of Peace, Son of God and King of Kings, which the Roman Emporers claimed they were, so he couldn't exactly send mail off the island slamming Rome. Daniel names the four bests with exception to Rome, but is highly descriptive of not only pagan Rome, but even after she became "Christian". It tells of the atrocities that happened to the people of God during her run. Ray Charles could see that Rome followed Greece in world domination. Rev. tells exactly how NOT to get the mark, which ultimately is more important than finding out what it is, to me anyway. That would be by obtaining the seal of God. The first part of Ezekial, and my post, tell what offences really set God off. I only listed the one relevant in this particular case. Paganism. It talks about worshipping the sun in God's house and the ones that cry out against it receiving a mark excluding them from slaughter. It's VERY relevant. That is the seal of God in one description. If you read back through my earlier post, watch the details, and the scripture itself will speak to you. I just tried to bring the comparison of the relevant verses in both books to give you some insight into what you are looking for. Its written so that if you really want to know and you really believe God, it'll come to you. Not IN God, but believe EXACTLY what He says as truth. Understand also that if satan stood up and said: Hey, it's me! , folks wouldn't fall for it, so this all falls under the guise of Christianity. It helps if you can put out of your mind every story you ever heard about it and every class you ever sat through on it and just let God speak. Apocalypse means to un-cover, like taking a lid off a cook pot. Peace be with you.

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

2PhiloVoid said:
WE don't barter, nor live off the land ... which are the natural alternatives to the idea of systematic economy.

The alternative Jesus suggested was "sharing". If people need help, then we help them. Of course, there is wisdom, too, so we use discretion in who we choose to help (i.e. who are the most needy or worthy of our time) and we try to be fair (i.e. those who do not participate should not eat, which is a rule against laziness).

Bartering misses the point in that it still relies on payment for services/resources.

It's pretty common to imagine a care-free Utopian society at the return of Jesus, and there are indications that there will be paradise on earth etc, but the record also says that he will rule with a rod of iron. Perhaps paradise will exist because we'll have a benevolent dictator in the lead.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
but the record also says that he will rule with a rod of iron.

'Selah' (think on this)
"strict discipline is (TODAY) required for life"
"being ready to punish every disobedience instantly"(NT)
"bring EVERY thought, dream, imagination... subject to the MASTER"
"slaves, obey your owners as if you are serving JESUS HIMSELF"(NT)
"wives, obey your husbands"
"children, obey your parents"
"be subject TO THE RULERS(on earth) as they are set in place by YHWH(GOD)"
"NO adultery" "NO idolatry"
"turn the other cheek"
"love your enemy"
"give whatever he asks of you, without expecting anything back"
"do not go to court, even for what is rightfully yours"
"never hurt anyone else"
"be harmless as doves"
"I AM sending out sheep into a pack of wolves"
"do not worry at all"

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
But, I wouldn't for a second look down on someone who was participating in the structure, that is what they do; I'm different.

It's not a matter of looking down on others (though I understand that it's pretty easy for any of us to become self righteous), but rather of recognizing what's happening spiritually in our interactions with materialism.

John Hyperspace said:
Either prophecy (and, by extension the God giving the prophecy through His Spirit) is designed to give 100% certain knowledge which we liken to a "rock" to stand on, or it is giving us ambiguous information that we have to guess at and look around and hope we're piecing it together correctly; but this is not certainty, it's uncertainty- it's "sand"; meaning we may not understand it yet, but when we do come to understand the prophecy, it relays to us a "this is certainly true" and not "this might be what it means": "maybe's" and "might be's" are just, not good enough.

Jesus said that he used parables to deliberately confuse people who weren't interested in hearing the truth anyway. I think it's like that with prophecy. There will always be an element of mystery because we don't have perfect understanding of all truth. We're suppose to hunger and thirst after more righteousness. Being 100% certain isn't standing on the rock; it's standing on bluff. There's always the possibility, and the probable likelihood, that we've misunderstood something, that some bias is preventing us from getting the bigger picture, that we're being proud in our understanding etc.

In Matthew 7 Jesus tells a parable about a wise and foolish man, the wise man building on the rock while the foolish built on the sand. The criteria for how each man fit into his category wasn't his certainty or lack of certainty about what he believed, but rather that one obeyed Jesus' teachings while the other did not.

It's like this with the Mark. The prophecy says it will be used for buying/selling, that it will be a global institution, and that it will be placed on the right hand (or forehead). We do not need 100% certainty about exactly what the Mark is to know that we should avoid anything which matches these criteria, whether it be microchip implants or some other thing.

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

John Hyperspace said:
The use of money has been going on since the dawn of civilization.

So has prostitution. Doesn't mean that's the way God wants it to be. Actually, that's the comparison the Revelation uses, too. The Bride vs the Prostitute.

John Hyperspace said:
Jesus used money,

Yup, but notice in Matthew 6, when he talks about our relationship to mammon (money and the things money can buy) he's referring to motivations. We're "in" the world but not "of" the world. We're not forbidden from using money, but he does make it clear that we cannot work to get money and still serve the values of his kingdom, because the two concepts are opposite in nature. We cannot say that we're working for love if we'll only work because we get something in exchange.

John Hyperspace said:
He said to render to Caesar that which was Ceasar's,

I like the tone of your responses so far. Despite disagreeing, you've been pretty good about it and I appreciate that. So, I hope you won't mind if I suggest that I see somewhat of a bias in this comment. The context of this answer from Jesus was that he was being tempted to stumble over his words so he gave a tricky answer on which he could not be trapped. In other words, this isn't just a straight forward teaching endorsing the payment of taxes. Look at what he's actually saying between the lines; after we've given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar? The trick is in providing and answer which allows people to see what they want to see. The Romans were satisfied because they heard, "Give to Caesar". They weren't interested in God so they didn't hear (or think about) the second part.

John Hyperspace said:
did not condemn the payment of tribute

He said the children are free. In fact, he presented something better than tribute. He promoted a system where people give their time/resources for free. Their whole lives become a tribute to their neighbors and to God.

John Hyperspace said:
nor tithing

Tithe literally means "10%". Jesus came to fulfill the law, and he did so with this particular law by bumping it up to 100% (See luke 14:33).

John Hyperspace said:
If one get to the point that money becomes his god, then, yes, we've got a problem,

How do we know when a person has reached this point?

John Hyperspace said:
What's the point of God specifying use of a "computer chip" to buy and sell as "worthy of hellfire" and not use of paper currency, or a credit card, or a paycheck?

Excellent question. There really is no difference (spiritually) between the Mark and the money we use today. However, the Mark represents a miracle; one of God's last attempts to get through to the human race. It's a 2000 year old prophecy which specifies the location (hand/forehead), the target audience (everyone), and the purpose (to control buying/selling). As we see the economic system slowly progressing toward cashless "tap-and-pay" technology with a rather noticible emphasis on eventually implanting this technology in humans, it's becoming more and more clear that the prophecy is being fulfilled.

As the angel from Revelation 19 says, the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. All of prophecy is meant to glorify Jesus. This issue of the Mark does so by pointing us back to Jesus' teachings on our relationship to materialism. We can't buy/sell without the Mark. So? The answer to the Mark is to start living by faith in God rather than faith in the economic system, just like Jesus talked about over and over again in the gospels.

People who die before the mark comes will still be held accountable for their service to mammon.

John Hyperspace said:
I've got a prophecy filled with symbolism, and you're wanting me to go literal on this specific aspect of a "mark" with no justification that I can discern for taking this literally when it's in a book of prophetic symbols and imagery (I ask again, is the "seal" in the foreheads of the 144,000 also a literal "saintly microchip"? Revelation 7:3), and weighing as well the ramifications of God suddenly caring about how people transact currency in a literal economy when He has never before shown any disdain for this, the ramifications that God does not give certain knowledge through His words but rather leaves us to "guess the mark; hope you're right" ambiguities, which create a great deal of confusion as people scramble to "pin-the-prophecy-on-the-thing-they-see" when the bible states God is not the author of confusion. Just none of it works.

Some teachings are literal and some are symbolic but they all overlap. Jesus used the same technique, where at times he would deliberately speak in riddles (like, "beware the leaven of the pharisees) and at other times he would speak quite plainly, (why do you call me "Lord", but do not obey me?"

The Revelation is certainly full of symbolism, allegories, metaphors etc, but that does not mean we should not, or cannot, find literal applications for these lessons. For example, the Beast is a spiritual entity which literally, physically interactions with us humans in the real world.

It is completely reasonable and consistent that the Mark would be physical, because we humans are physical and we easily respond to physical issues. When Jesus fed thousands of people, they wanted to make him a king, but Jesus rejected the idea and instead rebuked them for only following him because he gave them food. They had become distracted by the physical and missed the spiritual.

Satan has become expert and applying this principle. The Mark represents a choice, a choice which will only have meaning for us humans if we're allowed to act on that choice. The significance of the Mark is definitely spiritual in nature, but much like James admonished us to show our faith through our works, so too we show our lack of faith through our works. Taking (or rejecting) the Mark will show, through our behavior, who we really trust.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
He promoted a system where people give their time/resources for free. Their whole lives become a tribute to their neighbors and to God.

to wit: "we were purchased (like slaves) with THE BLOOD of the LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN" (Y'SHUA'S BLOOD; atonement, redemption, freedom, overcoming, cleansing)

NOT HIS CLEAN SINLESS LIFE, (several heresies promoting this as if HIS SINLESS LIFE saved us from what only HIS BLOOD could).

Thus, since we were purchased; we are HIS, completely - every part of us, spirit, soul, mind, and body. We are NOT our own (as if to do with as we please).

Endtime Survivors said:
How do we know when a person has reached this point?

Y'SHUA told HIS disciples:
"if you start collecting money (world's stuff) ,
the LOVE YOU HAVE FOR ME(JESUS) [already] in your heart will depart from you."
i.e. HIS own personal called and chosen Apostles,
if they started collecting money (world's stuff),
they would not remain in HIM, as their heart would follow another master(money/world's treasures/stuff/material things).

"Whoever loves, desires, seeks after the world or the things of the world,
cannot be a friend of YHWH(GOD)."

Narrow is the road to life, and few are there who find it.

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Y'SHUA told HIS disciples:
"if you start collecting money (world's stuff) ,
the LOVE YOU HAVE FOR ME(JESUS) [already] in your heart will depart from you."
i.e. HIS own personal called and chosen Apostles,
if they started collecting money (world's stuff),
they would not remain in HIM, as their heart would follow another master(money/world's treasures/stuff/material things).

"Whoever loves, desires, seeks after the world or the things of the world,
cannot be a friend of YHWH(GOD)."

Narrow is the road to life, and few are there who find it.

Hi Jeff. Thanks for your post. I'm still looking forward to John's (hyperspace) answer to this question, but to address your response, I was thinking that, at this point, an explanation which deals more specifically with the practical realities of day to day life would shed a little more light on the issue.

As John hyperspace pointed out, the disciples had a "bag" which they apparently used to buy food for the poor, at times. And, Jesus also said, "Sell what you have and give it to the poor". We can't sell what we have if we don't interact with money on at least some level. So, when you say, "collecting money" is an example of putting money before God, it does come across a little confusing.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
The alternative Jesus suggested was "sharing". If people need help, then we help them. Of course, there is wisdom, too, so we use discretion in who we choose to help (i.e. who are the most needy or worthy of our time) and we try to be fair (i.e. those who do not participate should not eat, which is a rule against laziness).

Bartering misses the point in that it still relies on payment for services/resources.

It's pretty common to imagine a care-free Utopian society at the return of Jesus, and there are indications that there will be paradise on earth etc, but the record also says that he will rule with a rod of iron. Perhaps paradise will exist because we'll have a benevolent dictator in the lead.

No, bartering does not by necessity require the medium of money, with the printed image of a Sovereign or Government appointed figure of value on its face. A system of official economic exchange, on the other hand, does require that we have the medium of money. Try going into Wal-mart to buy even just a loaf of bread; do it without cash, without credit card, and see how far you get with that load of bread ...

In a barter system, it is possible to trade some of my apples for someone else's loaves of bread, without money and the printed image (whether it be coin or paper money, or nowadays, electronic credit).

So, what I stated in my first post isn't a criticism of your concerns in your various videos, but I am trying to point out to you that the mark, the image, and the implication of 666 is not a suddenly new phenomenon that we Christians are having to resist today. No, it's a reflection of that which has been economically and socially prevalent ever since Roman times (and before), and it is something which has lasted even unto today. So ... yes... we obviously still have to deal with the 'system' and its demonic temptations today.

We still have to decide each day whether to love God OR Money ...

2PhiloVoid

razzelflabben · Oct 17, 2016

Original Happy Camper said:
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Your statement goes against the word of GOD.

hum...this verse says nothing about conscious being the one that reveals secrets....in fact, if we look at scripture time and time again it is the HS that reveals to man the things of God. Even Christ Himself was led and filled with the HS, which is what I said...so please explain how this passage disagrees with what I said? Specifics please, I see nothing at all in disagreement with what I said except for your claim that doesn't seem to make sense. If you need me to look up all the passages about the HS I will but there are tons of them.

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

2PhiloVoid said:
No, bartering does not by necessity require the medium of money, with the printed image of a Sovereign or Government appointed figure of value on its face.

Hi Phillip. I think you misunderstood my comment. I did not say that bartering requires money. I said it still requires payment. If you have wool, then whether I pay you with apples, bread, or hugs, the point is that payment (call it "exchange" if you like) is still required.

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

2PhiloVoid said:
We still have to decide each day whether to love God OR Money ...

What does it look like, in practical terms, when someone decides to love money? How do we know when it's happening, not only in ourselves, but in others, too?

Sabbathkeeper&Wife · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
For example, the Beast is a spiritual entity which literally, physically interactions with us humans in the real world.

. This is close. It's a spirit controlled government. The beasts always have been. MOST people don't choose to worship God, even lots who claim to be Christian, so to control the world, it has to be government. One has do do certain things to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, but you don't have to do anything to be controlled or influenced by the dark side.
As long as cash exists, this monetary control system can't be put into practice unless one other thing happens: money becomes useless when food becomes scarce, hence Monsanto and Nestlé, which eat at the same table, will become gods. Nestlé drills wells in 3rd world countries that have been dipping water from the same wells for 4000 years, sucking ALL the water out, lowering the water table below these poor folks wells, and selling them bottled water back, costing as much as 25% of their monthly wage just to have water. Monsanto engineers seed to grow once with sterile seed in the fruit produced so you HAVE to buy more seed from them. They actually own the rites to EVERY kernel of corn in the WORLD. They also own most of the cotton, sugar beets (where we now get all our sugar) and on and on. They're trying to own potatoes, which is more difficult to not be able to control spudding.
One of you guys mentioned a Utopia when Jesus returns. Interesting choice of words. Do you folks ever read on Saul Alinski? He's a man that organized a plan to cause KAOS and bring down functioning government structure under the pre-tense that it's not fair to lower classes. He organized many race riots for MANY nationalities in Chicago, New York and many large cities. You should Google him. His object was to break down government through protest and any other means, but never had a restructuring plan once the collapse was complete. It's was only to bring "change". Our current leader was a student of his and taught his classes before becoming a politician and the one who is selected to replace him, she did her college thesis on Alinski. BOTH model his teachings and use MANY of his quotes in their speeches. The objective is to collapse the norm, redistribute wealth, thus making a socialist government, with reduced constitutional rights. I'm serious, you guys need to Google his works and models.
All these things MUST come to pass for the MARK to be able to seperate people on what they believe and practice and Alinski's label for this was to create a UTOPIA , worldwide.
For all this to work also, there will have to be a universal government AND a universal religion, with one "department head ". Wouldn't hurt to Google Catholic / Lutheran reconciliation, Oct. 31 THIS YEAR. It's a huge meeting celebrating the Lutherans being welcomed back into the mother church in 2017 , after 500 years of seperation. The Methodists are right behind them. There's no more "protest" in Protestant. Could that be the deadly wound being healed? They are also meeting on the topic of "climate justice" and calling for worldwide prayer for spiritual unity.
There has to be a foundation for all of this to work together. Past history, scripture AND current events tell us that the foundation is laid, dry and the floor joists are being cut to fit!
Luke: 13:27-
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. (those who practice lawlessness)
Just because they come to the party wearing a Jesus suit doesn't mean they're let in. People are waiting and looking at all this stuff in a totally future tense, when it's been creeping up all along. Deceit means we didn't see it coming, until it was already upon us. Peace be with you.

razzelflabben · Oct 17, 2016

what I don't get about the current discussion in general (meaning not quoting anyone because my questions are more general) why when scripture tells us to sell all we have and follow Him we think we can justify exchange of good and services when it comes to the mark of the beast. IOW's I'm not asking how one could come to the given conclusion on either side of the issue, as I previously stated, I know that a case can be made for ignorance, etc. whether I accept that argument or not. What I am wondering is what makes us think we have the right to question the buying and selling of goods when the prophecy clearly states that the mark will be used in this way...can anyone help? Please provide answers from a scriptural standpoint so that it can be considered from scripture.

John Hyperspace · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
Jesus said that he used parables to deliberately confuse people who weren't interested in hearing the truth anyway.

Yes, indeed.

Endtime Survivors said:
I think it's like that with prophecy.

Oh yes, I quite agree. But note about this and the above: that Jesus expounded all things: Mark 4:34, and as such so does the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 2:10

Endtime Survivors said:
There will always be an element of mystery because we don't have perfect understanding of all truth.

I am not claiming "I alone have all perfect knowledge of all things in all things" but I am saying, I know what I know. If you don't, that's fine. But your lack of knowledge isn't mine.

Endtime Survivors said:
We're suppose to hunger and thirst after more righteousness. Being 100% certain isn't standing on the rock; it's standing on bluff.

But this is merely your own philosophy, and not really true even in regard to the scripture. For instance, I am certain that the 7 candlesticks at the opening of the Revelation, represent the 7 churches. Are you also 100% certain of this? Or, am I "standing on a bluff" by saying I am certain of the understanding of the candlesticks?

Endtime Survivors said:
There's always the possibility, and the probable likelihood, that we've misunderstood something, that some bias is preventing us from getting the bigger picture, that we're being proud in our understanding etc.

I'm sorry but there is no possibility whatsoever that I am misunderstanding that the candlesticks represent churches. I can't be misunderstand a symbol when the symbol is clearly defined elsewhere. "Mystery" that you're talking about only enters into the mind when it leaves off the bible, and how the bible clearly interprets its own symbols, and begins looking outside of the bible for something that "matches the symbol, to my mind"

Endtime Survivors said:
In Matthew 7 Jesus tells a parable about a wise and foolish man, the wise man building on the rock while the foolish built on the sand. The criteria for how each man fit into his category wasn't his certainty or lack of certainty about what he believed, but rather that one obeyed Jesus' teachings while the other did not.

How do you propose someone obeys Jesus' teachings if they have no certainty of what He is teaching, and how the words He uses are meant to be understood?

Endtime Survivors said:
It's like this with the Mark. The prophecy says it will be used for buying/selling, that it will be a global institution, and that it will be placed on the right hand (or forehead).

Yes. Those are the words.

Endtime Survivors said:
We do not need 100% certainty about exactly what the Mark is to know that we should avoid anything which matches these criteria, whether it be microchip implants or some other thing.

If you have no certainty, you can't know what you are avoiding. I have heard people claim "money" is the mark of the beast. Since you are looking to avoid anything that "might be" or "matches" these "criteria" then is it time for you to throw your money away and avoid it altogether? There are several things I could posit as being "the mark"- are you prepared to avoid each thing I posit?

John Hyperspace · Oct 17, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
However, the Mark represents a miracle; one of God's last attempts to get through to the human race. It's a 2000 year old prophecy which specifies the location (hand/forehead), the target audience (everyone), and the purpose (to control buying/selling).

Before addressing the post here; I wanted to know what you think the "seal of God in the forehead" of the saints is? Revelation 7:3, Revelation 9:4

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 17, 2016

QUOTE="Sabbathkeeper&Wife"]Do you folks ever read on Saul Alinski? He's a man that organized a plan to cause KAOS and bring down functioning government structure under the pre-tense that it's not fair to lower classes. He organized many race riots for MANY nationalities in Chicago, New York and many large cities. You should Google him. His object was to break down government through protest and any other means, but never had a restructuring plan once the collapse was complete. It's was only to bring "change".QUOTE
Oh, there was always a restructuring plan behind the chaos and disorder .... but this would go in the 'conspiracy' section probably. Seems no one wants to know and admit it (few do anyway).... it is too overwhelming...

Jonathan Mathews · Oct 17, 2016

You will probably not believe me, and that's ok... BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST!!!

I have seen the Real Mark of the Beast, and lived with a man who bears the REAL MARK!!!!!! (Fall of 2014, he was in Indianapolis, Indiana. I met him passing out green Korans. Now He leads a false Christian Homeless Ministry in Nevada). This man is full of Satan and had me deceived he was the Angel Gabriel!! He screamed at the wind and it stopped instantly, outside my apartment porch. He moved my bible away from me, to a seperate room, TELEPATHICALLY!.... When I saw the Mark on his right hand I asked him, and he told me "I put it on myself to scare people". He told my friend "Jon's just jealous because I got this Mark by selling my soul to the Devil and he cannot get it for himself.

The REAL Mark of the Beast requires no human WISDOM or Interpretation. It is EXACTLY what Jesus already has shown us on the Revelation scroll of John on the Isle Patmos. It's NOT "666".... it's the ORIGINAL MARKINGS!!!!!

"Xes" (looks like Chi Xi Stigma or Aramaic for "In the Name of Allah, Jihad") To see the REAL MARK of the beast, Google "Chi Xi Stigma" and you will know the truth.

It's not the "Sunday Law", a barcode, or a microchip. It's EXACTLY WHAT is on the Scroll from John, the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST!!!!

Believe no man..... BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST!!!!

Endtime Survivors · Oct 17, 2016

razzelflabben said:
What I am wondering is what makes us think we have the right to question the buying and selling of goods when the prophecy clearly state

Good question. Not sure if I'm being pedantic here, but it may be worth saying that I think we have a responsibility to question everything (even really basic issues like God's love for us, so long as we can do it humbly and sincerely). However, I think what you mean is what makes us think we have the right to come up with interpretations which appear to be contradictory to what the prophecy clearly states, right?

For example, the prophecy clearly says the purpose of the Mark will be to control buying/selling, but people regularly come up with interpretations which conveniently allow them to continue buying/selling. The "God won't punish me for wanting to feed my family, even if it means taking the Mark" argument is pretty common. Another really common interpretation is the highly spiritualized, "Actions of my hands and thoughts of my mind" scenario where people are okay to continue buying and selling (presumably) if their heart is right with God (though I've never heard a particularly satisfying explanation as to how the this interpretation applies to practical, day to day life; like, how does one know when the action of their hands and thoughts of their mind falls into the category of having taken the Mark? It's all rather vague).

As for why we sometimes choose to misinterpret apparently clear scriptures (and I think we probably all do it to some degree) would most likely be because of wanting to avoid some uncomfortable consequence or responsibility/discipline. So, greedy people will interpret verses about "the riches of God" or blessings of God as evidence that God wants us to be rich. People who are interested in sexual desire will interpret verses about loving their neighbor as evidence that God wants them to sleep around (believe it or not that's a real thing). There was a time when people used the Bible to justify slavery in the US. Men sometimes use it to justify dominating their wives. There could be a variety of motives.

CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

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