Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

cgaviria

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Is God's predestination permanent or temporary?

Permanent, hence why even this prophecy is said to be decreed,

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
(Daniel 9:24 [NIV])
 
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Daryl Gleason

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I see it more as God saying he would do something and then he does it or him saying something would happen and then it happens since He's God and his plans happen. What I don't believe is that those plans include every miniscule detail of everyone's life.
With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.

I guess I'm just predetermined to be a strong believer in free will.
Quite right, for the moment.

But here's the thing: you won't find a single reference to "free will" anywhere in the Bible. Yes, we are exhorted to make choices. Yes, we see people in the Bible making bad or wrong choices all the time -- and frequently experiencing the consequences of those choices. But do you honestly believe their choices were not known by God? Or perhaps you simply believe that their choices were not pre-ordained? Let's look at that logically.

If God had left it up to Pharoah as to whether or not he would harden his heart, what would have happened if Pharaoh had chosen not to? God's plan to deliver his people from Egyptian bondage and punish the Egyptians in the process would have failed. He would have lost the opportunity to demonstrate his power among them. Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, and a number of others in subsequent verses.

What would have happened if God had not put it in Sampson's heart to confront the Philistines? God's plan to punish them would have been thwarted. Judges 14:3-4.

What about David's numbering of his fighting men recounted in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? Even Satan played a part in this. If David had chosen not to do this, God would have lost this opportunity to punish Israel. Note here that David even subsequently acknowledged his action as sin in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.

The entire book of 2 Chronicles documents a number of cases where God's will was explicitly stated as being behind the decisions and actions of a number of kinds.

Or take perhaps the most famous and relevant case of all: Judas Iscariot. If Judas indeed had had free will, then if he had chosen not to betray Jesus, God's entire plan for our salvation would have come to nothing. And yet Jesus himself said that he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

This is why I say that from our limited human perspective, all possible choices appear open to us. But once we have made a choice, that choice was the very one we were destined to make -- and the only choice we could possibly have made, given who we were at that precise moment in time.

At the root of it all, what generally offends believers in free will the most when confronted with verses discussing predestination and the sovereignty of God's will is that they are forced to confront the fact that they are not God.

In Christ,
Daryl
 
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cgaviria

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With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.


Quite right, for the moment.

But here's the thing: you won't find a single reference to "free will" anywhere in the Bible. Yes, we are exhorted to make choices. Yes, we see people in the Bible making bad or wrong choices all the time -- and frequently experiencing the consequences of those choices. But do you honestly believe their choices were not known by God? Or perhaps you simply believe that their choices were not pre-ordained? Let's look at that logically.

If God had left it up to Pharoah as to whether or not he would harden his heart, what would have happened if Pharaoh had chosen not to? God's plan to deliver his people from Egyptian bondage and punish the Egyptians in the process would have failed. He would have lost the opportunity to demonstrate his power among them. Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, and a number of others in subsequent verses.

What would have happened if God had not put it in Sampson's heart to confront the Philistines? God's plan to punish them would have been thwarted. Judges 14:3-4.

What about David's numbering of his fighting men recounted in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? Even Satan played a part in this. If David had chosen not to do this, God would have lost this opportunity to punish Israel. Note here that David even subsequently acknowledged his action as sin in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.

The entire book of 2 Chronicles documents a number of cases where God's will was explicitly stated as being behind the decisions and actions of a number of kinds.

Or take perhaps the most famous and relevant case of all: Judas Iscariot. If Judas indeed had had free will, then if he had chosen not to betray Jesus, God's entire plan for our salvation would have come to nothing. And yet Jesus himself said that he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

This is why I say that from our limited human perspective, all possible choices appear open to us. But once we have made a choice, that choice was the very one we were destined to make -- and the only choice we could possibly have made, given who we were at that precise moment in time.

At the root of it all, what generally offends believers in free will the most when confronted with verses discussing predestination and the sovereignty of God's will is that they are forced to confront the fact that they are not God.

In Christ,
Daryl

What an excellent response. :amen:
 
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SnowyMacie

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With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.

I don't see how knowing on many hairs on my head equate to having every little detail of my life planned out. I think you might bring up a good point with your last sentence because I'm not one to equate love with attentiveness. I've never been the type of person that cares about the minuscule details, if someone does care to share those details with me, I'll listen because I know they care, but I just don't care.


But here's the thing: you won't find a single reference to "free will" anywhere in the Bible. Yes, we are exhorted to make choices. Yes, we see people in the Bible making bad or wrong choices all the time -- and frequently experiencing the consequences of those choices. But do you honestly believe their choices were not known by God? Or perhaps you simply believe that their choices were not pre-ordained? Let's look at that logically.

Their choices were not pre-ordained.

If God had left it up to Pharoah as to whether or not he would harden his heart, what would have happened if Pharaoh had chosen not to? God's plan to deliver his people from Egyptian bondage and punish the Egyptians in the process would have failed. He would have lost the opportunity to demonstrate his power among them. Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, and a number of others in subsequent verses.

Interesting, I see it the other way around, God had to do those things because Pharaoh hardened his heart.

What would have happened if God had not put it in Sampson's heart to confront the Philistines? God's plan to punish them would have been thwarted. Judges 14:3-4.

What about David's numbering of his fighting men recounted in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? Even Satan played a part in this. If David had chosen not to do this, God would have lost this opportunity to punish Israel. Note here that David even subsequently acknowledged his action as sin in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.


The entire book of 2 Chronicles documents a number of cases where God's will was explicitly stated as being behind the decisions and actions of a number of kinds.

Or take perhaps the most famous and relevant case of all: Judas Iscariot. If Judas indeed had had free will, then if he had chosen not to betray Jesus, God's entire plan for our salvation would have come to nothing. And yet Jesus himself said that he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)


I don't play the "what if" game when it comes to the past because there is no way to actually know what would have happened if the alternative had occurred. What I will say is that I do not look to Biblical main characters as an example for how my relationship with God should be because I am not a main character in the story of life, I, like most people am an extra. Those characters are more centralized to the story, God has a much different and more specific plan for them than he does me. For me, and I would say the vast majority of people, it's to help redeem humanity and restore the world. That doesn't mean God loves them more or their lives matter more, but not everyone can be the center of the universe.


At the root of it all, what generally offends believers in free will the most when confronted with verses discussing predestination and the sovereignty of God's will is that they are forced to confront the fact that they are not God.

I'm the last person in the world who will claim to be God. God is sovereign, but that does not mean humanity has no free will. Kings are sovereign over countries, but their citizens have free will. The sovereignty if God is not at opposition to the free will of mankind.
 
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Daryl Gleason

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I don't see how knowing on many hairs on my head equate to having every little detail of my life planned out. I think you might bring up a good point with your last sentence because I'm not one to equate love with attentiveness. I've never been the type of person that cares about the minuscule details, if someone does care to share those details with me, I'll listen because I know they care, but I just don't care.
Well, just as no sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will (Matthew 10:29), the same can be said of our hairs (which in my case is a lot). :)

You see, it is only in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), which I found out in the holy spirit means that he maintains every particle of all of Creation -- including every particle in our bodies -- from instant to instant. If he diverted his attention away from us for even an instant, we would cease to exist. He is this way with every aspect of our existence.

So, yes, we have an intensely personal God whose attention to detail is, quite frankly, beyond our imagination. The scope of his love for us is likewise.

Their choices were not pre-ordained.
Do you still feel this way?

Interesting, I see it the other way around, God had to do those things because Pharaoh hardened his heart.
But this is exactly my point: if God *had* to do anything as a result of man's choices, it would be we humans who had power over him. Additionally, while some verses do say that Pharoah hardened his heart, it is impossible to simply dismiss those verses that say that God did it -- or the other verses that I and Brother Gaviria quoted.

So, how do you account for these verses? And are you in fact saying that you believe that man has power over God?

I don't play the "what if" game when it comes to the past because there is no way to actually know what would have happened if the alternative had occurred.
I agree with you on this point. This is why I limited my scenarios to the opposite, that is, what would *not* have occurred, which we can indeed know.

It's clear from Scripture that God had certain plans that depended on men's making certain choices. These plans could not have succeeded as described if the men in question had chosen differently.

And there is not even a hint in the verses I mentioned that these men even had the ability to choose differently. On the contrary: God purposed, and men acted exactly in accordance with that purpose. This is how it is throughout the Bible. Even in cases where it appears men chose independently from God, these cases may be understood (and several are explained in Scripture, as I quoted) as God's having previously purposed.

So again, my point is that the men involved could not in fact have chosen differently, and the verses I quoted bear this out. Would you disagree? If so, I'll have to ask you to pleased provide Scripture to back up your point of view.

What I will say is that I do not look to Biblical main characters as an example for how my relationship with God should be because I am not a main character in the story of life, I, like most people am an extra. Those characters are more centralized to the story, God has a much different and more specific plan for them than he does me. For me, and I would say the vast majority of people, it's to help redeem humanity and restore the world. That doesn't mean God loves them more or their lives matter more, but not everyone can be the center of the universe.
But my brother, you *are* the main character in the story of *your* life. It's you and God, together forever, and you're right, you're just as important to him as anyone who will ever live.

The Bible is no longer being written, it is true, but what is happening instant to instant in our own lives now is just as important to God as was what was happening in the lives of those in the Bible.

I'm the last person in the world who will claim to be God. God is sovereign, but that does not mean humanity has no free will. Kings are sovereign over countries, but their citizens have free will. The sovereignty if God is not at opposition to the free will of mankind.
But you just claimed above that God must change and adapt to accommodate the choices man makes, so who is it who is really in power? Either God is sovereign or he is not; you can't have it both ways.

One cannot compare kings to God, because their sovereignty does not really equate beyond the human level. Kings are not responsible for maintaining the existence of their kingdoms at the subatomic level.

There are just too many occurrences throughout Scripture of God's predetermination to ignore. I would be interested in knowing how you reconcile this with your beliefs.

It's one thing to believe in free will and try to make the Bible fit into that view, but to sustain this view, one has to completely ignore certain verses (such as the ones I quoted). It is another thing entirely to understand that God is sovereign and then try to understand how free will might operate in this case. And this is exactly what I said before: from a human perspective, we do all seem to have free will; all choices are open to us. However, from God's perspective, all is said and done exactly in accordance with his will.

In Christ,
Daryl
 
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Far Side Of the Moon

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Why do you believe any of that?
Because its biblical and this is a Christian forum...if you dont..then its like why are you here?

You cant cherry pick the best parts of the bible.
 
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Far Side Of the Moon

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All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,





For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,


Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,


And even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,


And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,


And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,


Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,





Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,


Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,


And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth terrible plagues against Egypt,



In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,



Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,


And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,





And also demonstrate his love,


Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,



And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,




And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,


And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

I totally agree, I guess that makes me a bit of a Calvinist but too much free will makes god look weak like he's nor in control. He's either the Alpha and the Omega or he isnt...i feel the predetermined dotrine rubs Arminians the wrong way because as one stated..they aren't god.. And its alot to trust God when youre going through hell and he chose to let you go through it (perhaps to make you stronger or wiser) ..i feel they like control ....when the truth is..god has to put breath in us to even wake up in the morning...how much more control does he have?...

I feel we do have free will..but its limited and doesn't Trump Gods free will and his grand scheme of things.

I feel his Sovereignty and our free will go hand in hand...but his hand is stronger...if that makes sense
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And its alot to trust God when youre going through hell and he chose to let you go through it (perhaps to make you stronger or wiser) ..i feel they like control ....when the truth is..god has to put breath in us to even wake up in the morning...how much more control does he have?...
A good surprise is waiting for you.
YHWH does not control you that way, nor so much at all.

In fact, if you choose to willingly and joyously do whatever HE SAYS FOREVER, then HE makes EVERYTHING work together every day for YOUR GOOD PERFECTLY (AS HE is the ONE WHO IS ABLE TO DO SO; and that is what HE SAYS). PERFECTLY>
like the jobs you missed this year. HE worked everything out perfectly if you met HIS condition. (noted above, and throughout SCRIPTURE).

HE gifts you, grants to you, provides for you ,
all that is needed for life and even for death when it is time.

HE works it all out perfectly if you love HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE. (which you are if you willingly and joyously turn to HIM and call on HIM
TODAY for help in everything you need. ) . HE IS READY.

HE ALREADY gave HIS SON Y'SHUA MESSIAH as a sacrifice for all of our sin. HE ALREADY sent HIS SON to die and be raised from the dead
SO WE don't have to die forever, but rather out of pure love
SO WE can take part in the resurrection WITH HIM.

TODAY, listen to HIM . (HE is eager and delighted with you and everyone when they seek HIM).
 
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St_Worm2

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Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice .. All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen ...

Wait, are you saying that God is the Author/Cause of all moral evil :scratch: Please elaborate if you are because, how could He possibly hold us culpable for the sinful choices we make if He is the cause behind it all?

Thanks!

--David
 
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now faith

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Is it God's will that any should perish?
Other words deny the redemptive power of Christ and suffer Eternal seperation from God.
Is God a respecter of persons?
Did God create time space and matter?
Can you comprehend God?
If you can put God into your comprehensive ability,then He is not the God I serve.
What is the difference between God of the old Testament and God of the New Testament?
What purpose did Christ serve if God had already pre destined man kind?
Now Faith is the Substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, do you suppose based on this verse God is omnipresent?
 
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now faith

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predestination

get on a train and you will end up at that trains destination.. get off it and you wont .
Do I have a choice?
Or am I compelled by God to ride the Highway to Hell,if so what are the intentions of Satan?

If I'm on a road to nowhere ,I would sum it up with this verse:

2 Timothy: 3. 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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A good surprise is waiting for you.
YHWH does not control you that way, nor so much at all.

In fact, if you choose to willingly and joyously do whatever HE SAYS FOREVER, then HE makes EVERYTHING work together every day for YOUR GOOD PERFECTLY (AS HE is the ONE WHO IS ABLE TO DO SO; and that is what HE SAYS). PERFECTLY>
like the jobs you missed this year. HE worked everything out perfectly if you met HIS condition. (noted above, and throughout SCRIPTURE).

HE gifts you, grants to you, provides for you ,
all that is needed for life and even for death when it is time.

HE works it all out perfectly if you love HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE. (which you are if you willingly and joyously turn to HIM and call on HIM
TODAY for help in everything you need. ) . HE IS READY.

HE ALREADY gave HIS SON Y'SHUA MESSIAH as a sacrifice for all of our sin. HE ALREADY sent HIS SON to die and be raised from the dead
SO WE don't have to die forever, but rather out of pure love
SO WE can take part in the resurrection WITH HIM.

TODAY, listen to HIM . (HE is eager and delighted with you and everyone when they seek HIM).

That's not true. I say that because...if I could seek god on my own... I wouldn't need to have been save...with out gods spirit...no one would want to do what god wants us to do. Its against our nature.

His word says no one seeks after him, not one.
 
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