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I guess I'm just predetermined to be a strong believer in free will.
Perhaps.
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I guess I'm just predetermined to be a strong believer in free will.
Is God's predestination permanent or temporary?
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
(Daniel 9:24 [NIV])
With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.I see it more as God saying he would do something and then he does it or him saying something would happen and then it happens since He's God and his plans happen. What I don't believe is that those plans include every miniscule detail of everyone's life.
Quite right, for the moment.I guess I'm just predetermined to be a strong believer in free will.
With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.
Quite right, for the moment.
But here's the thing: you won't find a single reference to "free will" anywhere in the Bible. Yes, we are exhorted to make choices. Yes, we see people in the Bible making bad or wrong choices all the time -- and frequently experiencing the consequences of those choices. But do you honestly believe their choices were not known by God? Or perhaps you simply believe that their choices were not pre-ordained? Let's look at that logically.
If God had left it up to Pharoah as to whether or not he would harden his heart, what would have happened if Pharaoh had chosen not to? God's plan to deliver his people from Egyptian bondage and punish the Egyptians in the process would have failed. He would have lost the opportunity to demonstrate his power among them. Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, and a number of others in subsequent verses.
What would have happened if God had not put it in Sampson's heart to confront the Philistines? God's plan to punish them would have been thwarted. Judges 14:3-4.
What about David's numbering of his fighting men recounted in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? Even Satan played a part in this. If David had chosen not to do this, God would have lost this opportunity to punish Israel. Note here that David even subsequently acknowledged his action as sin in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.
The entire book of 2 Chronicles documents a number of cases where God's will was explicitly stated as being behind the decisions and actions of a number of kinds.
Or take perhaps the most famous and relevant case of all: Judas Iscariot. If Judas indeed had had free will, then if he had chosen not to betray Jesus, God's entire plan for our salvation would have come to nothing. And yet Jesus himself said that he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
This is why I say that from our limited human perspective, all possible choices appear open to us. But once we have made a choice, that choice was the very one we were destined to make -- and the only choice we could possibly have made, given who we were at that precise moment in time.
At the root of it all, what generally offends believers in free will the most when confronted with verses discussing predestination and the sovereignty of God's will is that they are forced to confront the fact that they are not God.
In Christ,
Daryl
With respect, it does indeed include every minuscule detail of everyone's life -- even to the numbering of the very hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7). His constant attentiveness knows no bounds; he loves us that much.
But here's the thing: you won't find a single reference to "free will" anywhere in the Bible. Yes, we are exhorted to make choices. Yes, we see people in the Bible making bad or wrong choices all the time -- and frequently experiencing the consequences of those choices. But do you honestly believe their choices were not known by God? Or perhaps you simply believe that their choices were not pre-ordained? Let's look at that logically.
If God had left it up to Pharoah as to whether or not he would harden his heart, what would have happened if Pharaoh had chosen not to? God's plan to deliver his people from Egyptian bondage and punish the Egyptians in the process would have failed. He would have lost the opportunity to demonstrate his power among them. Exodus 4:21, Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12, and a number of others in subsequent verses.
What would have happened if God had not put it in Sampson's heart to confront the Philistines? God's plan to punish them would have been thwarted. Judges 14:3-4.
What about David's numbering of his fighting men recounted in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? Even Satan played a part in this. If David had chosen not to do this, God would have lost this opportunity to punish Israel. Note here that David even subsequently acknowledged his action as sin in 2 Samuel 24:10 and 1 Chronicles 21:8.
The entire book of 2 Chronicles documents a number of cases where God's will was explicitly stated as being behind the decisions and actions of a number of kinds.
Or take perhaps the most famous and relevant case of all: Judas Iscariot. If Judas indeed had had free will, then if he had chosen not to betray Jesus, God's entire plan for our salvation would have come to nothing. And yet Jesus himself said that he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
At the root of it all, what generally offends believers in free will the most when confronted with verses discussing predestination and the sovereignty of God's will is that they are forced to confront the fact that they are not God.
Well, just as no sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will (Matthew 10:29), the same can be said of our hairs (which in my case is a lot).I don't see how knowing on many hairs on my head equate to having every little detail of my life planned out. I think you might bring up a good point with your last sentence because I'm not one to equate love with attentiveness. I've never been the type of person that cares about the minuscule details, if someone does care to share those details with me, I'll listen because I know they care, but I just don't care.
Do you still feel this way?Their choices were not pre-ordained.
But this is exactly my point: if God *had* to do anything as a result of man's choices, it would be we humans who had power over him. Additionally, while some verses do say that Pharoah hardened his heart, it is impossible to simply dismiss those verses that say that God did it -- or the other verses that I and Brother Gaviria quoted.Interesting, I see it the other way around, God had to do those things because Pharaoh hardened his heart.
I agree with you on this point. This is why I limited my scenarios to the opposite, that is, what would *not* have occurred, which we can indeed know.I don't play the "what if" game when it comes to the past because there is no way to actually know what would have happened if the alternative had occurred.
But my brother, you *are* the main character in the story of *your* life. It's you and God, together forever, and you're right, you're just as important to him as anyone who will ever live.What I will say is that I do not look to Biblical main characters as an example for how my relationship with God should be because I am not a main character in the story of life, I, like most people am an extra. Those characters are more centralized to the story, God has a much different and more specific plan for them than he does me. For me, and I would say the vast majority of people, it's to help redeem humanity and restore the world. That doesn't mean God loves them more or their lives matter more, but not everyone can be the center of the universe.
But you just claimed above that God must change and adapt to accommodate the choices man makes, so who is it who is really in power? Either God is sovereign or he is not; you can't have it both ways.I'm the last person in the world who will claim to be God. God is sovereign, but that does not mean humanity has no free will. Kings are sovereign over countries, but their citizens have free will. The sovereignty if God is not at opposition to the free will of mankind.
Because its biblical and this is a Christian forum...if you dont..then its like why are you here?Why do you believe any of that?
All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,
For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,
Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,
And even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,
And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,
And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,
Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,
Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,
Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,
As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,
And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth terrible plagues against Egypt,
In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,
Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,
And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,
And also demonstrate his love,
Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,
And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,
And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,
And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,
And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,
A good surprise is waiting for you.And its alot to trust God when youre going through hell and he chose to let you go through it (perhaps to make you stronger or wiser) ..i feel they like control ....when the truth is..god has to put breath in us to even wake up in the morning...how much more control does he have?...
Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice .. All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen ...
Do I have a choice?predestination
get on a train and you will end up at that trains destination.. get off it and you wont .
A good surprise is waiting for you.
YHWH does not control you that way, nor so much at all.
In fact, if you choose to willingly and joyously do whatever HE SAYS FOREVER, then HE makes EVERYTHING work together every day for YOUR GOOD PERFECTLY (AS HE is the ONE WHO IS ABLE TO DO SO; and that is what HE SAYS). PERFECTLY>
like the jobs you missed this year. HE worked everything out perfectly if you met HIS condition. (noted above, and throughout SCRIPTURE).
HE gifts you, grants to you, provides for you ,
all that is needed for life and even for death when it is time.
HE works it all out perfectly if you love HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE. (which you are if you willingly and joyously turn to HIM and call on HIM
TODAY for help in everything you need. ) . HE IS READY.
HE ALREADY gave HIS SON Y'SHUA MESSIAH as a sacrifice for all of our sin. HE ALREADY sent HIS SON to die and be raised from the dead
SO WE don't have to die forever, but rather out of pure love
SO WE can take part in the resurrection WITH HIM.
TODAY, listen to HIM . (HE is eager and delighted with you and everyone when they seek HIM).