How do you defend the Animal Cruelty in the Bible to skeptics?

Cis.jd said:

Then randomly, the parents ordered them to slaughter it for food.

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Nasty parents.

Cis.jd said:

Thanks for your input. There was another story presented here that involved Mary and Joseph sacrificing doves due to culture/religious beliefs that are not confirmed by God (i assume).

So i kinda raise this daring question (respectfully) to Catholics and other Christian denominations who believe in Mary being sinless. Wouldn't the verse of her and joseph killing doves under superstitious beliefs/tradition be already a sin? Sure, one can make the argument of them not knowing much due to the culture and time period they were raised in, but sins are still sins when you realize it or not.

How can you slaughter doves just because you think it's necessary to appease God?

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I understand what you're saying, but what Mary and Joseph did has some additional meaning that, upon first glance, many of us might miss.

In the O.T., there was a ritualistic sacrifice representing Levitical legislation to cover the "uncleanness" of a woman after having given birth (Leviticus 12:1-8). In relation to this Levitical purity law, the first thing to understand about the brief narrative which Luke gives us is that Mary and Joseph were faithful, observant Jews of their time (Luke 2:21-24). They followed the Law of Moses.

The second thing this shows us is that Jesus' coming into the world was in connection to, and according to, various aspects of the O.T., through both the Law and the Prophets.

The third thing this tells us is ... that Mary and Joseph did not have much money, that they had 'humble' financial circumstances, for the ritual sacrifice covering the birth of a child was to include both a lamb and a pigeon (or dove). But, as can be seen in the Levitical passage I cited above, there is the indication that if those coming to present the ritual sacrifice could not afford a Lamb, then they were permitted to bring instead just two doves. And this is what Luke indicates regarding Mary and Joseph without being explicit--they brought "just" two doves/pigeons. So, Mary and Joseph could only bring our Savior into the world by humble means.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Mountain_Girl406 said:

So no method of raising and slaughtering, no matter how cruel, is off limits?

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Hi. Well how else are we going to slaughter food animals? I can't just walk up to a cow and say "How's it going? Umm..listen do you mind very much laying on the ground so that I can slice a nice steak off you? I'll give you a shot of general anesthesia first".

"And while you're laying there Miss Cow could I take a little of your hide because I need another leather jacket."

Church2u2 said:

"And while you're laying there Miss Cow could I take a little of your hide because I need another leather jacket."

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I guess if you think you need leather jackets and steaks, well then it doesn't matter how the animals were raised or slaughtered.

Mountain_Girl406 said:

I guess if you think you need leather jackets and steaks, well then it doesn't matter how the animals were raised or slaughtered.

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Hi.Yes you're exactly right.The point I'm trying to make is that some people don't consider how food animals are slaughtered as cruel.We happen to think it's necessary. I wouldn't want to be present when it happened but I sure would like to eat or wear the end results and I'm Just being honest.

Cis.jd said:

Thanks for your enlightening points.

Just to say though, the question isn't about "why they do it" but on it generally being a sin. I think, at this time, we should know that these rituals the Hebrews did during that time is classified as superstition. Since when did God demand the butchering of animals such as doves as a tradition for new born babies? And the point is, if Catholics argue that Mary was/is sinless then this verse about them killing doves (regardless of whatever traditional beliefs) shows a sin being taken place.. that is if you think killing animals for reasons other than food as wrong (i think it is). It's ironic for me to make these arguments given that my religious beliefs are catholic, but i just want to make sure that i am not being biased.

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Sure, the rituals which the Hebrews undertook in the name of God are acts that we Christians can ignore now, since the Christ has already come into the world and wiped away that old, artificial ritual that God put in place. But, we should be careful in labeling it simply as "superstition" rather than a bonafide aspect of the O.T. faith, even on behalf of a love for animals. It's what Jews had to do (even when babies were born), and it wasn't meaningless, even though it may be something we cringe at because we today typically live in non-agricultural, non-livestock, hermetically sealed social existences.

As far as Mary being sinless, I'm Protestant so I'm not going to get into all that here. I'm just trying to focus on the overlapping theology between the Bible and the historical (and present) treatment of animals. I think bringing the issue of whether Mary was sinless or not is not directly connected to the main thrust of your OP. Just sayin' Otherwise, I appreciate your inquiries, and your heart for animals.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Cis.jd said:

I understand that all of these were in the past but lets say in your point of view, whether you believe Mary to be sinless or not, do you think the killing of these doves equates to a sin - regardless of it being a religious belief.

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I'll answer: "sin" is an odd word. In essence, it means "a thing done in violation of a rule of God". There are things in the Bible that God said was a sin for the Israelites that he did not generally call a sin for mankind (eating shellfish, for instance). And there are things that we do that don't seem like sins, but that are called sins by the Bible or the Church.

Assuming that the Bible and/or the Church have accurately conveyed God's opinion on these things to us, then there are certain prohibited activities, and to engage in those activities - or to not do what is commanded - is "sin".

That, then, is the definition of sin. It's an objective standard, based on a fixed text and a fixed Church position. Whether it's ultimately TRUE or not depends on whether the Bible and Church accurately preserve and present the words of God on the matter. If they do, then the things on the list are the "sins", but nothing that's not on the list is a "sin".

In other words, things that offend us, but that are not explicitly prohibited by God, are not "sins".

In this vein, then, Mary's and Joseph's adherence to the commandment to offer doves was not a "sin", even if I oppose animal sacrifice because I don't like the killing of animals. My sensitivities, likes and dislikes do not determine what "sin" is.

Cis.jd said:

I remember a story told by my aunts and uncles, my relatives (when growing up) had a pet Pig that loved them very much. This pig was like a pet dog to them. He would sleep on their beds, play with them, show affection..

Then randomly, the parents ordered them to slaughter it for food. They watched their pig get killed, and they could not forget how it looked at them (and the screams) with such heartbreak. What do you think of that? You have a pet animal, and it ends up loving you as it's family and then you just slaughter it. I hope you guys don't think that it has no idea what is going on, doesn't feel any sadness and just gets butchered blissfully.

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It is not the pig that is heartbroken, it is the children. Many of us have personal stories like that. People living on farms more than most of us. The Passover lamb was to be treated like that!

When still quite young, I was visiting my grandparents for a week in the Summer. They had a project, and needed my help. I remember that one trip because I was just big enough to be of help on a number of things! Well, it seems a rat got into the shipping pack of their main project (3'x8'x1', that weighed 50 lbs or more,) chewed some of the material for a nest, and left a little newborn rat. I got my grandparents to let me keep it, but before the day was out, the truth needed to be dealt with! I needed to kill the little thing to keep it from suffering. It's mother was not there (would be killed if she was,) and there was no way for me to care for it. After doing what had to be done, I was heartbroken, and torn up for the rest of the day.

Many people I know, or know of, had gone through what you described in your post. The animal may make noise, depending on the method of slaughter, or may not. The animal does not have a soul, and does not see things as we do. It is important, especially on a farm, to understand that there are animals raised for slaughter. They are fed and kept in certain ways depending on the desired result. If your sensitivities do not allow you to eat meat, and your health is not suffering, I do not fault you for it. However, it is wrong to blame God, or accuse God in this, because of attaching some human attribute to the dumb animal (animals do not speak.)

Each story I know, similar to what you wrote, has its heart-wrenching aspects. Do not add to this error of attaching human cognition to the stock animal, the error of questioning God and His motives or understanding. Read Job, and try to gain some wisdom. Also, the Proverbs will help. Read a chapter a day in Proverbs, and repeat that when you are through the book. After a few times through, you will begin to see things more like they really are.

Cis.jd said:

I understand that all of these were in the past but lets say in your point of view, whether you believe Mary to be sinless or not, do you think the killing of these doves equates to a sin - regardless of it being a religious belief.

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While I could elaborate on my own in answer to your question, I think I basically agree with what Viacomte13 says above (post #92) regarding the definition of "sin."

But, if you have some other denotation of "sin" in mind which his answer doesn't address, then please tell me and I'll try to answer from another relevant angle.

Otherwise, as a philosopher, I wouldn't (and don't) use the term "sin" to refer to any acts which I personally think are morally wrong, apart from any reliance on biblical concepts or notions associated with ethics as God sees it.

So, let me reiterate your question, Cis.jd: "do I think the killing of these doves by Mary and Joseph equates to an immoral act or to cruelty of animals?"

Well, (assuming that some absolute set of ethics exists apart from the existence of God), I'd say it probably is suspect. But, this whole question is a kind of "ethical tar baby," because to address this as a specific evaluation regarding Mary and Joseph's sacrifice of two doves can't really be extricated from the context(s) in which it is placed ------ not without addressing the overlying issue of whether or not the Bible is true and whether or not the God of the Bible really exists.

Moreover, if there is no god, then technically, there is little to nothing in nature itself that tells us that one organism should never kill some other organism. It's just nature "red in tooth and nail," and the fact that two young ignorant punks killed a couple of birds a long time ago is only a relative moral act.

And this is part of what I'd say to your skeptical acquaintances.

2PhiloVoid

Cis.jd said:

. I think, at this time, we should know that these rituals the Hebrews did during that time is classified as superstition. Since when did God demand the butchering of animals such as doves as a tradition for new born babies?

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Moses brought a Law to the people from God. God was with the people of Israel, and blessed them in the keeping of the law. It is not for you to say these things are absolutes, regardless of where you got them. If it is not from the scriptures, it is not true. Whether or not God considered Mary, the mother of Jesus to be pure in heart or not could not be proven to the priests of the day. What the law stated needed to be fulfilled, and the sacrifices needed to be presented. That is part of what made Jesus a suitable sacrifice for our sin - His obedience in all things. Some Old Testament reading on the Law of God will help you understand this error of blaming God or accusing God.

I'm sorry I didn't read through the pages of previous posts, but as I read this a book came to mind. Animal welfare is dear to my heart, as I have been a vegetarian for the past 12 years (recently started eating fish, though, for health reasons, so I guess I am now a pescetarian). When I became Christian I was concerned about a lot of the same things you are talking about here.

I haven't read this book yet, but it's on my wishlist: Matthew Scully, "Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy."

I like this quote:

Come to think of it, I first learned about the “abortion rights” cause and about the ruthlessness of industrialized farming around the same time, at the age of 13 or 14, and my reaction to both was similar: You just don’t treat life that way. Look at pictures of the victims in each case, at the thing itself, and you know that whatever problems the people involved are facing, this cannot be the answer. Routine abortion and systematic cruelty are not merely bad things of the kind that happen in any society; they are really bad things that no just society can learn to live with. As complicated, personal, and emotional (oddly so, in the case of meat and the methods that produce it) as both issues can be, in all the years since, I have never heard a single compelling argument for why the unborn must die or why the animals must suffer.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359761/pro-life-pro-animal-matthew-scully


When I came around to considering Christianity, it was by seeing the link between cruelty to animals (which I understood) and cruelty to the unborn (which I totally didn't, back then). Other religions state this link more explicitly, but I think there's a case for it in Christianity too. I don't know enough to make that case, but I know there are saints who loved animals and there are psalms that point to the Lord's love of all of His creation. From two of my favorites:


Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

and

He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

I know people have to eat, but I also know that we as humans tend to take a lot more than we need, and hurt others in the process. I think God must love all of His creation-- enough to call the stars by name! --and if the stars are precious, if they even praise His name, then the animals must praise Him too, and we should have mercy on them as He has mercy on us. This doesn't mean refraining from eating them (though I think that's a good choice for those who can or want to do it!) but perhaps being more conscientious in our consumption of animal products. Those are my thoughts.


The story you tell about the pig is horrible. I have heard of people who were abused by having to watch their beloved pets be beaten. Such a shame. The way I understand it, many traditional and conservative religious are wary of the idea of animal rights as this supposes animals as our equals. It's sad that the largely secular and atheistic left has dominated the conversation about animal welfare, framing it terms of "rights" and "liberation." It doesn't need to be this way, it would seem, but it is.. I will have to go back and read the previous posts, perhaps I will add more then. I understand you were specifically talking about OT sacrifices. Sorry again for just jumping into this conversation..

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Ok, So OP, I worry about you watching all of these animal cruelty videos. I think you're traumatizing yourself. Seriously. Watching things like that over and over is not good. You know it happens, you don't need to see it over and over. Perhaps your energy will be better spent trying to help animals by volunteering at a humane society or getting involved in some organization that promotes their welfare. I am worried that repeatedly exposing yourself to scenes of violence will cause negative effects on your emotional state and I say that as someone who works in mental health..

Seems like the question of animal sacrifice was resolved for you, but now you are asking about whether or not animal sacrifice is a sin. I really don't know what I could add to the answers above. 2PhiloVoid really breaks it down well. I tend to avoid hasty moral judgements about people in the past-- hindsight being 20/20 and whatnot. However, there is the issue of whether or not God required sacrifice, and if one believes in and trusts God as revealed to us in scripture (and tradition, if you are Catholic or Orthodox). Clearly there was more to come for humanity-- Christ-- and for me, as an animal lover, it is good to remember that. I am typing all of this with my cat on my lap and my dog staring at me from across the room

In short, I can understand how terrible it is to really meditate on. Truly, we live very different lives today. I wish you luck in finding answers to your questions!

Cis.jd said:

I never said there is no god nor am i intending to make it an argument. I do agree that due to the fact that we feel the disgust towards animal cruelty is a good argument that God put that in us because he wants them to be treated right. I mean, animals in nature whenever there is a volcano/earthquake or natural disaster that is about to happen... they are able to determine it right away in order to get out of there. Us human aren't as great at determining earthquakes to volcanic eruptions, but the animals do. So it's good evidence (or argument if you disagree) that God does protect them as fitting to the laws established in nature/the wild.

I guess a bit of me was drawing skepticism on how much "word from God himself" is in the word of God. Maybe there are more points of views from the authors written there that really had nothing to do with God or his opinion in the first place... this however may also draw some trust issues with the Bible itself though. It's a tough one and it is something i'd like to believe in some way. I just can't come to acceptance on the replies saying "animal cruelty was ok back then but it is not".

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While I could challenge the substance of your "good argument," I'm not going to because I'm not here to stir anyone up into a debate. At some level, I could say I agree that decent people do, in general, have a natural revulsion to the death of animals, and an aversion to being cruel to animals as well. But, that argument doesn't do much to explain the actions of morally "indecent" people.

Also, I wouldn't say that animal cruelty was "ok" in Old Testament times, let alone a "good thing." Because animal sacrifice was associated with human sin, it was an unfortunate and negative thing. Even the prophets, who typically speak "for" God in the Bible, seemed to indicate that God more or less thought that animal sacrifices represented an imperfect, temporary measure for spiritual observance and, partly, a food provision for the priesthood and the people; it's not something God really wanted to perpetuate in the long run, and as you know, animal sacrifice has gone bye-bye since the time of Christ. Bye-bye animal sacrifce. Bye-bye!!!

Anyway, no one who is a Christian should have any reason to abuse animals, cause unnecessary animal deaths, or promote animate cruelty. Personally, I'm more than confident that Jesus loves even the humblest of sparrows.

2PhiloVoid

Cis.jd said:

I just can't come to acceptance on the replies saying "animal cruelty was ok back then but it is not".

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Remember: lions eat baby gazelles, sharks tear apart baby dolphins, plants eat flies. Robins eat worms, hawks eat robins. And after a fashion, God kills everything and everyone.

This place is not the final destination for anything that breathes, so the nasty business of getting dead, while certainly harrowing to contemplate, is not the last chapter of the story.

God made human childbirth much more hellish and dangerous for the human mother than the births of virtually any other animals. The human head is really much too big for the birth canal, and is squished down to a pulp, traumatizing the child in childbirth - and the huge size of the human head essentially causes the baby to rip its way out of the human birth canal. Human birth is very bloody, horrible, leaves the mother utterly wiped out and helpless for a bit, and in days before medicine, resulted in death of the child or mother or both about 10% of the time.

And that is by God's DESIGN!

There's a lot of suffering while we're in the flesh. True for us, and for the animals.

And in truth, all of that suffering is by God's design. For "not a sparrow falls with the father's consent". We call natural disasters "Acts of God", and that is literally true. When a wall of mud, unleashed by a hurricane, buries an orphanage in the Philippines and crushes and suffocates 40 8-year olds, that is actually God's hand.

If their terrible deaths were the end of everything, then God would be pretty monstrous. But actually, their deaths are just a harvest, and they go on after death, as living spirits.

The same is true, probably, of pigs and birds and cows and fish and every other animal that is killed, maimed and died, or is devoured whole by another animal. It's grim business, this harvest of death. But so is being born. So is cutting molars. A caterpillar essentially digests itself in its pupa, and re-emerges as a butterfly.

There is life beyond death, and in that life, there's no body to kill.

So the horror is real, and awful, and done by God, but it's transient, a birth pain, really, for a spirit freed of the cocoon of flesh to enter into the afterlife. And that's not so terrible.